I've worked as a trader for around 4 years now from structured products trading to linear to options and I find it completely stupid. To be fair the structured products desk (exotics and hybrids) was quite intellectually challenging and I found the work interesting. You could always dig deeper and understand more about the inherent risks and characteristics of the product.
But now most of what I do all day in my role is punt FX and I find it completely stupid. All I do is stare at charts, hold a finger up to the wind and make a trade and endure the swings. I have a budget to make on pretty much non-existent flows so I have to keep at it all day and when the day ends I wonder wtf am I doing with my life. My colleagues are stupid but hey, nobody said you had to be smart to punt in the markets.
Seriously all you ivy leaguers and engineering whiz kids in trading, why are you still in this??? Are you guys really happy that his is all your reduced to? I'm really thinking of throwing in the towel.
And to the hardcore guys in quant funds, granted i was never that good enough in school to join a quant fund and probably won't ever be but all that work with arcane models to squeeze out some pnl. Shouldn't you be curing cancer instead? I don't have inside experience on what you guys do but from what i've heard and read (https : //www . quora . com/ Do-hedge-funds-use-the-generalized-method-of-moments)
I mean for real? You guys don't have anything better to do with your skills?
Am I the only crazy one here?
FX trading is essentially gambling unless you have inside information from central banks.
Not really. You can make money in FX trading if you have the correct strategy.
Are we talking retail trading? I actually have found the spot-forex market to be completely shady as fuck. A lot of brokers have gone underwater for giving traders with deposits of $1000 notional values of $1,000,000 (doesn't make it rigged but pretty insane).
Aside from that, you can actually compare spot-fx charts on different brokers, and they will never look alike. Probably front-running orders, and displaying a manipulated spot-rate.
Trading is only as stupid as you want it to be... Surely you can come up with a way of doing it smarter, so that it’s a bit more intellectually stimulating?
Your right, there could be a billion things I could test, models I could build, to see if I end up with some strategy and probably distract me a bit. But then I think about the effort I'll have to put in just to eek out some PnL on some report at the end of the day, not to mention the desk I work for isn't really the most supportive environment for this kind of thing, not when my colleagues basically just go "hmm.. my gut tells me spots going to go up" and think they're a complete genius when they get it right.
Now I'm not just saying that. I'm supposed to help building up a fx options business in a new market thats not really there yet, thus complete absence of flows. In fact when I first started I was downloading data and testing strategies on weekends with R in the cloud since the stuff I did crashes my computer. I also worked on it in office. But half-way through all of that I just really stopped and asked myself wtf am I doing. I'm looking at data and charts all day and spending my weekends testing strategies just to forecast some numbers on a screen which I don't really care about.
I just really don't think this is the best use of anyone's time and effort, especially if they're capable of doing these crazy things (i wouldn't say i'm fully capable yet) and I guess that's what I'm trying to find out. Is it just me or are there other people in trading roles that feel the same way??? Instead I've attended a few weekend hackathons, worked hard after work on AI projects, and tried to network with people from different industries, mainly tech, to keep up with changes in the world. At work I just resort to the good old gut but I increasingly feel its a complete waste of my time and skills.
Martinghoul, you seem to be a PM at a hedge fund according to your profile, and I'm really hoping someone could tell me this. Why do you enjoy doing what you do? Are you able to consistently make money and feel like the master of the universe, is that what gives you your rush? (And i mean that in a very sincere way because lets me honest that's how we would all feel). Do you like the unpredictability of it all (which to me just clouds luck and skill)? I used to be a huge fan of quantitative trading but pretty much all standard alpha is commoditized now and it only works until you blow up. The new, weird, and strange stuff just makes you wonder if this is how technology should be used. I'm extremely skeptical of anyone who says they can beat the market consistently except for the select few (like Rennaisence Tech and some others) but then again I'm a cynical guy.
I'm nowhere near the top of the game, prob on the bottom rung, but I'm really just waiting for someone to tell me that there's more to it in this trading game then what I can see from here. I've already cleared out my work cabinets.
Firstly, I know how you feel, since I have gone through a period such as you describe... That too shall pass.
Secondly, as to myself enjoying what I do, indeed, I do enjoy it, as I have described in an older thread. I find some aspects of the job frustrating, sure. However, overall, I feel that it's possibly the most directly rewarding job experience I have ever encountered. And yes, undoubtedly, one of the main reasons for this is that I have been incredibly lucky and have learned some valuable skills which allow me to be generally decent at what I do. I suppose that's why I actually am in the position to appreciate the aspects of the biz which so appeal to me.
whats your background?
trading is closely akin to other strategy games like chess. some people really enjoy chess...others do not. if you enjoy it, then you will be happy playing forever. if not, then go find a career that you do enjoy.
maybe its just me but I wouldn't really compare trading with chess, chess is a solved game if you can do all the computations. There's way too much noise and randomness in trading. At the end of the day its near impossible to tell if your just lucky or "skilled". Sure you can make stable money if you have client flow coming through or at least see or anticipate the flows but absent that, I feel every strategy is just a strategy waiting to be blown up
ahha grasshopper...but if you study blowups...you will see that they too occur with a predictable shape...and you can trade those too.
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I've worked on three different desks
Honestly though, all my instincts are telling me to just get away from this but I'm wondering if I'm like the kid who thought maths was useless in high school or the guy always looking for greener pastures. I'm waiting to see if there's some adult whose going to tell me to stick it through because it's worth it.
if you are making good money...then stay and bank as much as you can...and use your free time for more "meaningful" pursuits...you can always do something else...but once you leave the trading business...its very hard to get back in.
what bank are you trading at? And why did you move to FX? that’s arguably the dumbest product to be in since it’s been completely automated for decades and the product is as vanilla as it gets
Technically I should be trading options but markets not there yet. I've got to try to make my budget somehow and I agree, fx is the most stupid product to trade. If I have to claw back my way into finance I'd rather go for a etrading role but I don't.think I'm.qualified for it yet with my background
Every trader I’ve ever met regardless of profitability hates it. But they also wouldn’t want to leave it.
You think there is some great meaning in any career? You think Curing cancer will change the world? So everyone lives forever. Then gets bored and commits suicide. A cancer researcher might spend his entire career doing solid research but never gets lucky and ends up accomplishing nothing.
You think a tech firm job is special. Zuckerberg made billions so now people spend their days staring at tiny screens. Avicii gave people great music and then committed suicide.
Any career gets boring and monotonous. I think it’s human nature to be curious and get bored and want to do something else. But the grass isn’t exactly greener anywhere.
From your posts seems like you want out too (haven't had time.to read in detail.correct me.if I'm wrong). What would.you do if you were me? I'm still 25
I don’t want to leave. Curious though.
Martin ghoul said same thing. Every trader I’ve ever met hates trading and loves trading at the same time.
It’s better than being a lawyer. I think every lawyer truly hates the job.
I'll gladly take your spot...seems I'd enjoy it and appreciate it far more...
As others have said, you could perhaps do things to make it more interesting, or maybe you're just looking for meaning in the wrong areas. Your job is only one aspect of your life. What do you do outside of work? What do you spend your money, your time on? That could very much help with the way you generally view the world and your place in it.
This isn’t realistic. If you are a trader it is your life and all-encompassing. You don’t become a trader to make a salary. Which means you spend all your time thinking about markets. It’s highly competitive.
And yes as I said above every trader hates it too some extent. A friend of mine has had 5 buck years and he interviewed with other shops and they came off telling him he has a huge passion for trading. Then I talk to him privately and tells me how much he hates it. Truth is both parts are likely correct. It’s Love-hate. Greatest game in the world but it’s tough to devote yourself to markets and not hate it a bit.
Sure, that's true. But...as others have said...any career with high risk/reward characteristics is going to be like this. Want an easy life? Go work that salaried position and clock just about 40 hours every week. I have a feeling many people who last at all in trading couldn't possibly last at all doing something like that. They'd lose their minds.
I think sales will drive the business in the future and trading and managing risk will just become a secondary activity done by computers. Thoughts?
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Thanks for the opinion guys. Not sure why monkey shit was thrown around, I thought everybody gave very sincere opinions.
I handed in my resignation a few weeks ago. Could be a foolish decision but I really don't think I was put on this earth to look at charts and buy low sell high all day. I thought I'd share some of my thoughts to anyone who would find it useful, although I've only worked for 4 years in trading which isn't really that long so take with a pinch of salt and feel free to call bullshit. I have however been lucky enough to be involved in three product lines which I feel has given me a pretty good overview of trading as a whole.
All in all I really do feel we're at the end of the line for trading and might as well get out or at least gain some new skills while I still can. I'm planning to try and make a small business creating software tools using some of the new tech out there, I feel there's still gaps to be filled between the academic research type stuff being done in deep learning and commercial usage which tech-savy people can fullfil. I don't really fully know what I'm doing to be honest since I punt fx all day for the better part of 2 years but I'm still 25, worst case I go do a masters and do the whole jump-through-hoops thing again if I really want to get back into finance, preferably in a role closer to algos. I have been warned it might not be that easy to get back in but I think with my experience and what technical chops I have left its worth a try.
There's a concept called Gartner's hype cycle which I guess some people might have heard of, although its more of a tech thing. I think its an interesting concept and fits will to most industries. With finance as an industry (not just speaking of the stock market) I think we're definitely past the peak and maybe slightly past the trough. The Industry as a whole might pick up but that doesn't not necessarily mean the same for the people that work in them. Pays probably going to come down to even more competitive levels and tradings going to be more comoditized as a service like what we're seeing in equities which are dominated by algos that banks sell. Non-linear tailored solutions which require more human input and creativity will probably remain but be at the mercy of cyclical customer demand. Hedge funds will probably increasingly take on more of the role of providing liquidity through trying to trade on inefficiencies with banks increasingly becoming an intermediary for execution but even hedge funds seems to be an increasingly crowded space. Haven't actually worked in the industry so feel free to call bullshit but feels like strategies seem to be increasingly harder to find with so much money chasing the same thing and its just more and more churning of people. Even HFTs are finding their profit margins squeezed out. Pays going to reflect what people really are worth and those who only know how to punt fx all day long are going to be paid for what its worth punting fx all day long. Banking / Finance, especially in the area of trading, is increasingly going to be more of a business which is a good thing.
Techs probably in a bit of a bubble as well but I don't think its all froth. Something interesting I've read earlier, the pace of ground-breaking innovations are taking place at increasingly rapid paces. From the invention of fire to electicity to computer to internet to social media to the next big thing, they're coming quicker, sort of like Moore's law on a macro level. Moore's law itself is being pushed to the extreme. The next batch of high-tech silicon chips will be 7 nanometers thick when the atoms of silicon themselves are only 0,2 nms. We're gonna step into quantum computing sooner or later. I think if we take a step back to look at everything, the next ground breaking innovations are going to hit increasingly closer to home like a sucker punch and I'd be damned if the first thing people think of is stick it in a hedge-fund strategy.
All in all I don't want to be clinging to the end of an industry that's fading (at least fading in terms of opportunities for manual work) just because the pays still decent when there's so many potentially new stuff going on. That feels a bit short sighted and I'm still too young for that. If you look at life or business from the perspective of a trade, there's basically two major schools of strategies, arbitrage (including stat arb) and momentum (trend following). The arbitrage opportunity in a finance career is shrinking, the ridiculous paydays are gone and past the peak. I'd rather be better positioned for the next major trend with a backup plan as my stop loss.
Anyways a bit of rant and probably a bit longer than anyone cares to read so feel free to sling monkey shit. Instead of punting FX though might as well make my own trade and see how it goes.
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