Keeping Sabbath in IBD
Say you get a summer analyst spot in IBD, you keep sabbath - this was known during the interviews, you still got an offer...
Should there be any concern about chances of full-time, given the fact that you'll be out of the office late friday thru saturday night? There really is no way around this, working on Sabbath is out of the question here.
I've seen some posts touch on this, but I'm looking for clarity.
Regardless of what was "inferred" from your interviews etc, you will most definitely have to make some very tough choices. There is NO way that you will be immune from working on a Friday night or Saturday. That is a very naive perspective.
i am not jewish, but i bet there are a lot of jewish in IB, it just seems hard to believe that none of the jewish in IB keeps sabbath.
girl in my analyst class kept the sabbath...for two years she was out on Friday but she was always working Saturday night and Sunday. it is possible, but i can also say you better be more than willing to give up your saturday nights to work (and sunday). because your fellow summer analysts won't be too happy when they get stuck with your work Friday night and then don't see you working saturday night either.
wtf? there is no way to get out of working friday nights....stop pretending that you are better than other analysts and get over this shit
prospie and iceman you are both completely wrong.
you can take the sabbath off, but yes prepare to work sat nights and sundays.
this person is still a complete tool for wanting to "keep sabbath" lol
Athiesm is a religion in itself.
Stop abusing those who observe/adhere to a belief system different to yours - it is nothing more than bigotry and you are no better than fascists/racists when you do this.
Learn to have some respect. Otherwise I will bruck you up.
From the ghetto....
i'm a little bit religious myself.
but you've gotta learn not to get offended by what you see on the net. there are gonna be ppl who disagree with what you believe in, think it's dumb or whatever. you probably think the same for them. don't get all fired up about it.
I keep the Sabbath -- been doing this at BB IB for 3+ years -- my staffer/MD/team mates know not to expect to get in touch with me during those hours -- never had an issue
make it known early on, but i will say that not all staffers/groups are created equal and depending on this factor, you may not get your wish for getting sabbath off without some sort of repurcussion (i.e., getting staffed on only pitches b/c no one can trust you to be there on the weekend when a deal needs to get done). also expect to owe everyone favors as your co-analysts will be pissed if they are stuck with your work on the weekend. also, since this is an internship, who knows what will happen when full-time offers are given out. however, it could be a blessing in disguise as you prob dont want to work at a place that doestn respect your religious beliefs.
I think you'll be fine. One of my friends worked at a BB this past summer and kept the Sabbath, had no problems, and is going back full time in July.
He said he told his staffer and team, and they were really considerate. And he got staffed on deals and apparently performed well.
He did say there was one time when he was working on a deal and an associate in the product group sent him a bunch of work Friday afternoon that he needed by the next day. He said he told the associate that he couldn't do it because of the Sabbath, and the associate was really cool about it and just did the work himself.
Plus, there are a LOT of Jews in ibanking. Most aren't religious, but they'll definitely be understanding if you want to keep the Sabbath.
I'd echo the previous posters in saying that you'll have to make up for missing 24 hours of work by going in Saturday night and Sunday all day if need be.
I get that sinking feeling in my chest when I read threads like these, reminds me what my weekends are going to be like for two years.
Yep. My last day off was Christmas. It's now the middle of March.
If I'm not staffed today, I'm getting at least one day off this weekend, though. First I'mma sleep, then I'mma sleep, and then I'mma sleep some more. That's what I call some fine Sabbath R&R right there.
There are weekends I couldn't get through without some Black Sabbath on the iPod.
Nothing like Ozzie before Sharon and the kids.
... And there's a very different but still very valid kind of Sabbath R&R.
I agree: back when the guy had two brain cells to rub together, he was decent. I'm probably setting myself up for flame city here, but really old-school Metallica (and Apocalyptica and S&M) does it for me on Saturday mornings. Along with old-school Sisters of Mercy and occasionally (OCCASIONALLY) a little Guns 'n Roses.
Oh, and pirate socks. I have a pair of Jolly Roger socks I wear when I have to seriously bust ass on the weekends. Pirate socks and the Black Album for Saturday morning modeling sessions. Almost as good as actually keeping the Sabbath.
Well, not exactly. No, not at all.
I wonder if it's too late to convert. I know God would let me... but would my staffer?
Religion an Ibanking (Originally Posted: 04/04/2007)
Good afternoon everyone, I'm new to this forum and was wondering if you could extend the courtesy of offering your opinions.
I was wondering if it's possible to keep the Sabbath (sunset to sunset Fri. to Sat.) while working as an analyst/associate at (any) investment bank. Thank you in advance.
http://www.ibankingoasis.com/node/4074
Sabbath Observers in banking (Originally Posted: 04/01/2011)
Is there resentment from fellow ibankers towards Jews who observe sabbath and leave early on fridays? Is this a definite way to make yourself number on on the chopping block?
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/jewish-investment-bankers-sabbath…
The above thread should be helpful.
Interesting. I think the answer is mostly yes, but getting your work done efficiently and being hard core in all aspects of the job go a long way towards making people forget.
Can I observe Shabbes as an Associate in NYC? (Originally Posted: 06/26/2008)
Hi everybody,
I desperately need your advice and experience.
I will start as an i-banking Associate next month at CS in NYC. My wife is modern orthodox and we observe Sabbath. This means I have to leave on Fridays when it gets dark and can only return to the office Saturday after it gets dark. I definitely don't want to become a bottleneck and would be able to answer emails but not much more than that.
Now, I am pretty worried about becoming very unpopular very quickly within my group. I don't know who to tell first (the staffer, or the MDs?) and how my observance will be received.
I would really appreciate your advice.
Many Thanks,
I am not Jewish, but I would like to know about this also.
Good luck baxi!
We have a few orthodox jews on my floor (analyst and associate level). As long as you are willing to work, it's not usually a problem (or at least they don't say it is). However, definitely perception wise it's hard, especially if other people are waiting for you to finish up work on a Saturday night/Sunday so they can review for Monday.
I would imagine as an associate, it wouldn't be as terrible as you can always have analyst pick up the slack for you so long as you are willing to review on a Saturday night/all day sunday. But that being said, it's also not really fair to an analyst if he/she gives you comments on a Friday night, and then has to come in on Sunday to turn comments because you just got to them.
Sorry if this is incoherent. I've been in the office since Tuesday. Meh.
It shouldn't be a problem whatsoever. Plenty of people do it. Never compromise your beliefs for a job, no matter what. Man is nothing without principles.
During one of my summers as a SA in IBD, I worked with an orthodox Jew associate. Just bust your bum on non-sabbath days. Banks are so image conscious and PC, they will probably be over-accommodating in working with you.
DeltaHedged www.deltahedged.com
"Since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Thanks a lot for the comments, I appreciate it. I am starting the training program in a month and will join my group afterwards. When and to whom should I talk about my Sabbath restriction?
Many Thanks again,
Schedule a meeting with your HR manager and discuss it with her. After you meet with her, talk to your boss or staffer and say "i ran this by HR so I want to let you know, blah blah blah"
Assure all parties you will still be a go-to member of the team, etc. Shouldn't be a problem.
DeltaHedged www.deltahedged.com
"Since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved." - Niccolo Machiavelli
will do.
Full Disclosure: I am a Conservative Jew. I work on the edge of the Diamond district so I see all variety of Frum daily.
Baxi, what the hell is the point of your post? You KNEW the answer before you wrote your first question. 1. You're married to a Mod Orthodox gal. The MO I know in NYC wear the kipa 24/7. The ladies are identifiable a mile away -- the skirt, the headband, (and very often) the deer in the headlights expression. Do you NOT wear a yamulke?
2. You didn't get your job sight-unseen right? Did you remove your kipa before the interviews? Probably not.
My point is you're a knucklehead for asking this stupid question. People in New York recognize the differences between Orthodox (all varieties -- even MO) Jews and non-Orthodox Jews. THE ASSUMPTION IS: YOU WEAR THE HEADGEAR - BE IT A STREIMEL, FEDORA, PLAIN BLACK OR VELVET - you're observant.
So, go home at 4PM Friday (Summer) or Noon (winter), enjoy a spirited Shabbos and return Sunday to the work you've left to others for two days.
Assuming you come from some boondock little town, you'll be very pleased to learn within walking distance of your apt., office and everyplace else there are Glatt Kosher offerings; a mikvah; and lots of other homey touches to appease your delicate sensibilities. Welcome to New York. Good Luck, you're gonna need it.
Shabbot Shalom Brother!
To be fully honest although people have given positive answers so far I know of a guy who does this. Let's just say people in his team resent him for it a little bit, well juniors, ie associates and analysts anyhow. Sure you will do your work but if you are physcially not present work that may have been handed to you will be given to somebody else more often than not. I'm talking about london though so maybe it's completely different in NY where there are way more jews.
perfectly valid question, no need to jump on in him like that
DeltaHedged www.deltahedged.com
"Since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved." - Niccolo Machiavelli
"I will start as an i-banking Associate next month at CS in NYC. My wife is modern orthodox and we observe Sabbath. This means I have to leave on Fridays when it gets dark and can only return to the office Saturday after it gets dark. I definitely don't want to become a bottleneck and would be able to answer emails but not much more than that. "
You'll be fine...the question is whether they'll count jewish holidays against your vacation days or not. they dont for me.
Jimbo
Thanks everyone for answering some of my questions.
Now to Real Estate Ape. I love it when people are presumptuous. First of all, I am not from some boondock little town. I grew up in a big European town, lived in Israel for 6 years (where I served in the army, studied and had a start-up using my fourth language) and live in NYC for about 4 years. Second of all, my wife is modern orthodox. I never said I was, and I am not (pay attention to details before you attack someone). I am not going to go into details here, as our personal compromises are none of your business.
Best of luck to you, with your attitude you are going to need it more.
i hope you ask questions like that in your training class... you know its likely they will lay off some people before training is over...i wonder how they figure out who those people will be....its the ones who ask questions that if they had any common sense they would have figured out.
Thank you worrying about me, but I am not an idiot. If I cannot ask a question like that in a forum like ours, then where can I?
Please accept my apology. I've NEVER know a Modern Orthodox gal to marry a non-orthodox man. You've lived in NYC for 4 years and yet still question CS allowing shabbot observation? Spend a little time at 11 Madison Ave on Friday to answer your own question. Maybe you've been at Rickers Island the whole time? (a joke -- lighten up!)
What are you then? Has your wife always been MO? She dress MO? Do you? Did you wear one to your interviews?
Baxi, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder over something. Would love that story....
Shalom Brother.
MO runs the gamut...from quite strict to quite liberal in observance...
You seem pretty hostile... lighten up pal.
The key is to be fully observant - no work on Shabbat at all, people respect and accept that. Once you start being "flexible" people will simply assume that you can work on Saturday and will expect full availability.
IBanking & Religion (Originally Posted: 01/11/2007)
Anyone have any issues with not working due to religious reasons? For example, I am not able to work Friday nights or Saturday during the day at all. I know that "legally" I am protected, but optically, would this be an issue working in iBanking?
you're fine. i had a friend who kept shabbat (which i'm assuming you reference) and she had no probs. she did work extra hard on sunday etc....
shabbat is what made her able to tolerate banking.
one things though...you may wind up using vacation days for the various holidays, so that cuts into your vaca time. some banks are more or less flexible with this
i was under the impression that 1st year analysts don't usually take their vacations. this is what i hear from a few guys at lb over the summer. although they were in s&t rather than corpfin.
i didn't take vacation for the first yr, but i know ppl who did. different desks are different. either way, you're right, it's tough (Especially in banking) to use all of your vacation days, so taking off for reilgious holidays isn't such a big deal
I have a friend who keeps shabbat in IB as well. It's hard on her -- legal or not, there is definitely a price to pay, and some of it is paid in reputation.
If it's your faith, though, keep to it and don't let anyone tell you you can't. Just make sure that people know that it actually IS your faith, because if people suspect for a moment that you're using it as an excuse, that you're not 100% religious, nobody will ever trust or like you.
An illustrating point: whenever anyone brings up the fact that she doesn't work on the shabbat, someone always defends her with "Yeah, but she's REALLY religious." You can be certain that, if she ate bacon cheeseburgers or wore miniskirts and sexy tank tops, people would look sideways at her insisting on having the shabbat off. Word of warning.
I've heard of a couple of people with this issue--it's totally cool (regardless of the "legality" of it, etc.).
The catch, of course, is that you've got to say up front that you're willing to work all-nighters on Sunday night to make up for lost time.
Does Shabbat only work for those at BBs?
Do you realize god isn't real?
Laws are fucked up...Your work is your religion!!!
drinking on friday nights, and being hungover all day saturday...
Its the day of rest afterall...
if you are shabbat observant your employer is required to give you off. it's not a bb only thing. this may cause discrimination in the hiring process though
Lol at people still believing in fairytales in this day and age.
Yeah tell me about it...pathetic
If I personally was devoutly religious and had strictures against something, the last thing I would do is go to work in an investment bank and start throwing my weight around, saying, "You can't do this by law; you can't do that by law. By law I have the right to blah blah blah and yadda yadda." Anything you force will cost you more than it's worth. If you want it, you gotta get it by greasing the right connections somehow. I'm not sure how long you'd last around here if you were constantly quoting constitutional amendments.
Banking and Religion (Originally Posted: 02/20/2007)
Do bankers get Sundays off if they want to go to church? For those in banking, has the job turned you away from religion? I've heard that bankers in their 1st/2nd/3rd years stop going to church (or whatever religious center they attend) because 1.) they just kinda fall out of it 2.) they're too tired and wanna sleep in.
As I'm not industry yet, just wanted to see if this is true or if it just varies per person.
You may do whatever you like during your own free time (including, but not limited to going to a church). Whether or not you actually have (any) free time (whatsoever), is another story.
Wow... church? Of all the hundreds of bankers I know, I do not know of a single one that ever goes to church. I know of one -- just one -- who occasionally attends a synagogue.
It just doesn't seem like something that fits. This just doesn't seem like a world where people choose to go to church. It's a foreign concept.
that there is no god anyway
a good number of the ppl on my trading desk go regularly.
i'd think you'd be fine taking sun mornings off
Wrong. In IB there is no time for church. Maybe in S&T, but as outlier said, there is no god.
I started going on Sundays again about 6 months ago.
I have to say, it does wonders for clearing your head and putting things into perspective.
But alas, no, there don't seem to be many regular churchgoers in the biz.
For the churchgoers, do you guys tithe 10%?
i do give 10% btw.
I actually tithe more than than 10% - its good for the soul and for those that i help... Not everybody is as lucky as some of us are. Give your time, money and wisdom to society boys and girls
how much more newbie?
I go every sunday to Redeemer and tithe
tithe * 2
very nice. that's the halachic maximum btw.
I started attending Sunday mass again recently too. In fact, my conscious now bothers me on those Sundays when I can't go. I try to tithe, but the reality is since I hardly carry cash anymore, I've been caught off guard at mass. I have to force myself next time to pick up a few envelopes so I'll be prepared next time... Anyway, such is the case that whatever $$ I've got on hand at that moment is essentially what I've been tithing recently.
This is a really encouraging post. =)
Totally, nice to see some bankers with faith. I was wondering how much my career would impact my faith. Although I am not a regular church participant, I am a christian.
Jimbo, are you a red-sea pedestrian? Are you in NYC?
What about rastas like myself ? Do we get marijuana mondays off ? Or are our rights being ignored as usual ?
That comes out of your holiday allowance. Peace
i've not not heard that term in years, made me smile...i most certainly am....
Actually, it seems to me (just from personal observation) that the red sea peds are far more likely to keep their faith in banking, or to be faithful in banking... though, as as usual, it is done without fanfare and so quietly that their colleagues might miss it.
interesting mis ind, but in what way have you seen others 'lose their faith'
Jimbo, where do you lie on the frum-scale?
Missy, it depends on what you define as "keeping faith." High holidays vs. Shabbat, kosher, the works.
In us terms, Centrist MO...most like dati leumi. you?
I am MO, but dont fully keep shabbat etc - do you think I have anychance in leaving for Fri night dinner?? Keeping Kosher in NY at the office must be so much easier than in London.
absolutely...you can tell them you keep shabbat....
bigdreams, you mean like phone and tv on shabbat?
More of a Fri night man with the family, but keep kosher + tephillin every morning etc. Bit wierd I know but each to his own.
bigdreams, u sephardic?
can we cool it with this claw talk
... Claw talk?
you know jews...they have jewclaws with which they attack
[quote=outlier]you know jews...they have jewclaws with which they attack[/quot
Haha, Borat quote?
Sure am.
nothing can MAKE you loose your faith but your own desires and short commings, now finding the time and energy to attend servives.......good luck
If you really want to go to church/temple/mosque/etc., you will find a way to do it. Religion and IBD are not mutually exclusive.
Are there a lot of Israelis in banking in NYC?
Quite a few
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