http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/21/world/africa/libya-…
http://mg.co.za/article/2012-09-23-people-power-d…
Second article is better.
Good for them. Gotta love people standing up to extremists and taking their city back.
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And then there's assholes like this:
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/23/world/meast/pakistan-film-bounty/inde…
Stop raining on my parade, Edmundo :(
It's just nice to see a change of pace when it comes to Middle Eastern news.
I hear you. I'm just so fed up with their bullshit.
The scary thing for me is that both governments have nukes. I don't see the upside in bombing an unstable failed country, never mind a nuclear one. Perhaps your elites should try diplomacy for a change?
Disclaimer: I don't condone the Pakistani minister's actions whatsoever.
Relinquis,
Sorry, bro. I'm now firmly convinced that there is no diplomacy with Islam. Pakistan gets bombed because it's a haven for terrorists. Bin Laden was just kicking it in the 'hood, for fuck's sake. More and more I'm coming to believe that the only "diplomatic" solution is the complete and total isolation of fundamentalist Islamic nations: no Western embassies, no foreign aid, no exit visas granted to the West. Allah will surely provide for his chosen people anyway, no?
mr ignorance, declaring the war to the whole islam?
go learn something about islam first.. it is much more similar to christianity than you think
It's funny that you think comparing it to other Bronze Age mythologies makes it somehow more palatable to any rational thinker. Wholesale buffoonery is just that, regardless of flavor.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/SCeQKElLnDQ
hey eddie how's the klan leader gig going?
That last comment is precisely why we have idiots running around with weapons in their hand and hatred on their mind. Why ridicule something you have no idea about and I'd imagine very little desire to learn about? Live and let live. It blows my mind how little respect people have for one another and their faiths. Fucking retards like those magazine publishers in France should be shut down for inciting racial and faith violence. Look, we cant do anything about these religious fanatics unless we isolate them completely (which I agree with frankly but too many logistical issues mean its a non starter) and without inciting them any further, I'm sure they'll live their lives just as anyone else will. What we can do is place a limitation on downright reckless and malicious communications to be adorned as free speech. I dont see the fascination with Islam. Why must we constantly and consistently place it on the forefront of our news when its simply a fucking religion. Get over it. The right to taunt large numbers of already resentful people should not be fucking universal. Frankly, I've had enough of seeing it touted as such.
Pakistan is an ally to the US and the UK. Precisely why we try our best to undermine and antagonize a volatile region on its best day when we need it badly. Either fuck them completely or learn to co-exist. No middle ground.
Did you just advocate for limiting freedom of speech and freedom of the press? What's more, were you actually awarded a silver banana for that thought?
Just so we're clear, the solution to Islamic fascism is...for Westerners to limit their own freedoms...?
Eddie please. We all know the USA's history with Bin Laden, Saddam, the military junta in Pakistan, the Shah of Iran and other useful tools (the list goes on).
By isolation do you mean similar embargoes & sanctions that you did to Iraq and are trying to do with Iran, i.e. forcing the rest of the world to cut them off, or do you mean just the US getting out of their business with the rest of the world free to engage with them as they please? If that latter, than I think you might be on to something.
I doubt the rest of the West will follow your recommendations without coercion, not to mention the rest of the world.
Just a cursory look at US relations with the Middle East and other Muslim majority nations one could as easily say that there is no diplomacy with the US, only complete submission and subordination on all issues. It is that kind of zero sum thinking that you have in common with the kind of people who put bounties on foreign citizens. I'm glad that most nations do not take this approach.
I lean to Edmundo's line of though, however I give them the benefit of doubt on a one to one basis, Ive known muslims who are easy going and normal people, while I am heavily against those who live for their religion.
I once met an ex-muslim now atheist who told me about the problem of the religion there and it is basically that they live their entire life thinking of whether every single thing they do will lead them to heaven. That is in my view an extremely fucked up and dangerous way of living. Think about measuring drinking a soda or giving someone a handshake every single time under religious zealotry, that is what I believe is plain wrong.
Christianity, unlike islam gives for a separation of religious beliefs and earthly government, not the less becaus of emerging as the official religion of an empire, that is why the political power was separated, and is seem as quite natural that is separated, from spiritual authority. Without such an approach a muslim population wont feel legitimate to live under non-muslim set of laws, that is the main challenge.
There's no way to solve this and no way to ignore it.
Lets all face it, we use the ME for their oil and the day we no longer need them we will simply move on. They will be left with exporting sandbox sand.
Everything we do in the ME is centered around maintaining control for our allies, who simply ensure we get our crude oil crack cocaine. Whenever a country tries to buck our authority we find a reason to bomb it or topple the government. Iran needs nukes because they are a major OPEC power, not friends with the Saudi's and have seen what we did to Iraq. The second a non nuclear Iran starts messing with the supply or transmission of oil we will magically find terrorist in Iran and start bombing. Or we will just let Israel do it.
Obama was shaking hands with Gaddafi a couple years ago. Then he signed the order to bomb him into oblivion. You are our friend as long as we need you and then we turn on you.
I don't blame the people of the ME for hating us, every red blooded American would do the same if the shoe was on the other foot. But it isn't. So we exploit the fuck out of them, they blow some shit up and then we drop ordnance from afar. While the people of the ME are losing family members, aka collateral damage, Americans are bitching about the new Batman movie.
Actually, the day we don't need the ME anymore is probably the day the ME starts improving. It is the curse of commodity wealth. Just look at Africa and the musical chair of strongmen, all funded by the USA. As long as you keep exporting your mineral wealth we simply don't care. Businessweek had a great article a couple weeks ago about tin mining and the horrors involved in this.
Simply how life is. Might makes Right.
Completely agree.
To follow on Ant's point, we, the West, loved the Arab Spring. It thrilled because we wanted the action. While the protesters were simply sick and tired of a daily occurrence in their lives, whether it was persecution, violence, etc. Point is they simply did not like something and they were using their inalienable to be heard. Innocent people died then too but it was papered over because the protests were deemed great, to the point we were funding the clean up opp.
But those same protests suck now because we dont like them. The situation is the same for the protesters though.
I'm unequivocally not advocating they are right, because frankly people are far too sensitive, but face facts. These protests stem from the Arab Spring.
On the money dude. Clarity and actual sense of the world is not one of the strengths of people on this forum.
Edmundo, as a seasoned poster here, would have thought you'd know better. You're embarrassing yourself with your ridiculous views.
The ME is more religious than the US is. Who cares. The issue arises because they have something we want (oil). So we get involved with their business and they are angry. The solution is to just not do business with people we disagree with.
Let them do whatever they want. It is their choice. Ultimately it only hurts them as their restrictions inhibit the full maximization of their human talent. Without oil revenue the ME will be forced to either starve or adapt. They will choose adapt and things will slowly improve.The entire reason the ME is the way it is currently is because the governments of these countries don't need to listen to their citizens.
Taxation sucks, but it also makes politicians beholden to their citizens. When a government doesn't need taxes to run it also doesn't need to listen to people. It doesn't need to innovate or create other industries since it can continue to milk to golden goose. Look at Dubai, their lack of mineral wealth and their response to this. A relatively western and innovative country.
Look at Russia and the way they have lost ground in becoming less corrupt, more free and more democratic. You can blame in large part the increase in the price of oil and their mineral wealth. You see this over and over again.
As long as we depend and pay for their oil we will encourage intolerance and a government uninterested in their people.
I definitely agree that we should be taking much bolder steps toward North American/Western energy independence. The fact that we are forced to operate in the Middle East out of commodity necessity is unfortunate. I don't think wind or solar power is the answer (that seems to be the discredited delusions of a group of "flat-earthers"); I think the ultimate solutions lie in fusion, fission, hydrogen, and in autonomous vehicles.
Yeah, I mean we just need to get to the point where drastic moves in oil price has a limited impact on our economy. More nuclear, more natural gas, more solar, wind, etc. That natural increase on gasoline price will drive more people to fuel efficient vehicles and towards the most efficient life style there is, urban living.
Suburbanization is ruined this country. People wasting hours of their lives commuting, living in areas with only a handful of employment options.
As long as we need the ME we will deal with this crap. I'd rather we not have blood on our hands as a nation for the sake of filling up a gas tank. Let them live their lives as they want and let us live ours.
We should just take their oil and tell them to do something about it, boom!
maybe they hate your government because it's constantly bombing them, invading their countries, destroying their societies and generally killing hundreds of thousands (millions?) of their people? surely that is a more logical conclusion, but it isn't as satisfying or politically expedient for someone who wants to demonise other people for having different beliefs.
It doesn't stand to reason to ignore the US government's actions when trying to understand why there is resentment and anti-Americanism in so many countries.
To play Devils advocate, what real benefit is it to the West to not taunt them? They kill a few people and we have continual support to bomb them whenever we want. End of the day it is the ME, not the western world, with drones bombing endlessly.
I mean they riot, the world thinks they are uncivilized and we bomb. Seems to be the cycle. Yeah, we probably shouldn't poke the bear, but the bear only hurts itself.
And while I think it is nothing but antagonistic to draw an insulting Islamic cartoon, is Islam essentially off the table for mocking or joking? The fact that we cannot express ourselves because of the threat of violence (terrorism at its most basic form) is kind of bullshit.
Personally, I see no reason to mock people who are living worse than Americans did in 1776, but that is just me. We have a world full of assholes. It would behoove the ME to learn to tolerate shit or else they will keep getting bombed.
I don't know about you guys, but being the worlds bombing range would make me rethink my actions pretty quickly.
Oh well, as long as that oil keeps pumping. Maybe Christians should start burning shit down and we wouldn't have people putting crosses in vats of piss or a Chicken company saying they support traditional marriage because they have religious beliefs and in return being labeled a hate organization and banned from cities.
Hmmmmmm.
Generally, I agree. What I dont understand is why there's a need to ridicule Islam. It clearly has its limitations and flaws (which I'm sure are even evident to Muslims) but why we constantly need to hammer home that point is beyond me. In recent memory, I dont think there's been a period of quiet time without some issue somewhere in the world where someone is condemning Islam. How about we just relax for a bit? Forget about it. I'll say it again live and let live. Muslims are definitely sensitive but can you blame them? They know their faith is under attack daily and any slight, however minor (and that video from what I have seen is incredibly minor) has to be challenged. A failure to do so infringes some messed up thought process they have. The point is however, Muslims are very territorial. Leave them to their own religion in their own countries. If they attempt a worldwide takeover anytime soon, I'll be on full alert.
Are you kidding? In most Islamic countries Christianity isn't mocked--it's simply banned. What's worse? Mocking or persecution?
Live and let live, because that's been the Muslim policy for the past millennium, right?
This is a war of ideas, make no mistake about it. The best weapon in the modern world's arsenal is the relentless wholesale mockery of Dark Ages beliefs. I applaud Charlie Hebdo and any and all others who shine the light of derision on a belief set that is incompatible with even 18th century thought, much less 21st century.
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