*take this with a grain of salt as I'm an upcoming student.

I'm in the same boat. I had the mindset of "I'm going to major in CS because I'm hedging my risk if finance doesn't work out." CS is very hard and people will question why you want to work in Finance rather than Software Engineering in SV. If you want to be very competitive for jobs like IB (don't know how this applies to other finance jobs) getting into the b-school and getting a high GPA is the most important. I've noticed this has been argued here quite a bit, I personally think if your school is a lower tier, then a quantitative major is better. Some say if you come from a lower ranked school, a major in finance is a no brainer since you need everything you can to show interest from a lower level school. Hope some Certified Users who are in the industry will chime in on this.

Here's the best part, though. If you can demonstrate interest in finance (clubs, internships, etc) while maintaining a 3.5 GPA in CS (very difficult but very possible) then you'll be just as competitive, maybe even more. I mean, getting a high GPA in a major that is much more rigorous and time consuming than Finance shows how capable you are but that's only doable if you have a genuine interest in programming, high level maths, etc.

 
Best Response

On the money. Major is generally unimportant if you can show your commitment with extracurricular activities, however coming from a lower-tier school I would be mindful of how majoring in CS would impact your OCR opportunities. Some students are given full access, others aren't (in some schools, such as mine).

I really suggest the "go for what interests you so long as it's quantitative and you get a high GPA" approach. A few years out from college, the only thing anyone will look at is your major and the school's brand. Your GPA will also be looked at but less and less over time - I'd say that by your 3rd year out of college fewer than 1/3 of the places you apply to will ask.

That said, I wouldn't recommend CS to "hedge your risk." You won't be successful at something just because you have a degree in it - it requires so much more than that. Think about what you want to do right out of college - maybe IB, maybe something else - and major in whatever gets you closest to that. You can change your mind a few years down the line by going back to school (MS, MSFE, MBA).

in it 2 win it
 

Why don't you major in CS, and minor in Finance/Econ - problem solved. You get the best of both worlds - you get a legitimate skill set (CS) which more or less guarantees you a job from Day 1 out of school and you can "check the box" with the Finance interesn your resume.

Mind you that a lot of these target schools (most Ivies, top LACs) don't even have a finance major and most people view it as a BS major anyway...

 
HryvnaZV:
Why don't you major in CS, and minor in Finance/Econ - problem solved. You get the best of both worlds - you get a legitimate skill set (CS) which more or less guarantees you a job from Day 1 out of school and you can "check the box" with the Finance interesn your resume.

Mind you that a lot of these target schools (most Ivies, top LACs) don't even have a finance major and most people view it as a BS major anyway...

This. My suggestion would be double major CS + Econ and minor Finance.

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing. See my Blog & AMA
 

Overall, I think fields that are closer to math are more useful. For example, physics is more useful than mechanical engineering (or material science), since it's more theoretical. That is probably also why computer science is pretty well regarded.

I'm basing this on what I saw IBD recruiters look for at my school (which is a pretty good engineering school)

For trading, it's obviously math, physics and computer science (not necessarily in that order) that are the most useful engineering majors.

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
 

math is a lot easier than cs.

the thing about engineering is that you have so many projects to do that it takes up literally all your time .

As far as recruitment goes, watch out being a cs major for IBD right now.

Climate is bad and firms are playing it safe. A lot top engineering students are not getting interviews. It will be hard for you to convince them " why banking" when you are a cs major under this climate. Of course, if you have a 3.8 or 3.7 ( which is ridiculously hard in cs from a well known school) and interned at a boutique bank before your sophomore year, it's a different story.

 

but graduating with good gpa's in both isn't exactly a walk in the park. if you do take that route, don't rush your schedule to graduate in 4 years. nobody will look down on you for taking your time with 2 degrees.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
 
v:
but graduating with good gpa's in both isn't exactly a walk in the park. if you do take that route, don't rush your schedule to graduate in 4 years. nobody will look down on you for taking your time with 2 degrees.

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

If you aren't going to do it in 4 years, then don't do it. When you do it in 4 years, it gives you a story (that you were able to perform well and handle a lot of responsibility). When you do it in 5 years, then that story no longer applies (and in difficulty, it would be compared to a single major).

To the OP, for IB, Economics, Finance, or Math major is fine. You don't need to pick up CompSci on top of that (a minor is fine).

 

Well, I know for a fact it would be in 5 years. I want to have fun in college! Even though it may be closer to a single major, I would still have the knowledge. I don't know if I;m interested in IB or S&T. Do you guys think that finance and comp sci is a good combo if I'm undecided. Won't the finance say I'm good for IB (M&A or maybe PE) and if I decide to go to the trading side, the comp would be great? Any more thoughts would be great!

 

The double major thing would be great.

However, as a warning, if you are still in high school, really reevaluate what you can do. College comp sci classes are no joke if you are in the top engineering school. It's a norm to work on a comp sci project for 2 weeks , 4-5 hours each day, and still cannot figure out the problem. If you put your finance courses on top of that, watch out for that gpa drop. You need to maintain an at least 3.3-3.4.

 

If you are really still in high school, you've got a jump start on showing an interest in banking already, considering most high schoolers (and most adults for that matter) have no idea what investment banks even do.

Certainly do not underestimate the difficulty of comp sci or engineering in general, As eric said, keep your GPA up, and while a double major does look great, it is not going to automatically get you in anywhere - huge numbers of kids double major.

Also recognize taking five years to get an undergrad degree will definitely stigmatize you, regardless of how hard your work was, and "having fun" is DEFINITELY not an excuse for being a slacker. I am a triple major and will graduate in three years, but I still have plenty of free time. I may be an outlier, but you do not want to go in thinking you'll need five years. An econ + finance double major would be more applicable and easier. Also, try to remember that college is expensive - you'll be paying 50k in tuition and 100k in opportunity cost for that fifth year. You can do a lot of partying if you graduate in four years and save that 150k.

 

He's not in high school, just a freshman.

And yeah, if you just want to do comp sci for the extra knowledge, just stick to finance and do it in four years. You can learn comp sci on your own, or take some classes, without doing the entire major. If you want, a minor would be fine.

The upper level courses are definitely time consuming, and project-based. You will not be able to focus on finance full-time, especially when it sounds like you're not aiming for a career in computer science or anything technical anyway. Banking and S&T have nothing to do with it, either -although you might use a little in S&T, it's simple and doesn't require another degree.

If you're just aiming for finance there's no point. Speaking as another freshman, you're being naive. If you want to prove you can work hard, get a 4.0 and trade on your own time.

 

The only reason I'm saying it would take 5 years is because of the high number of credits required for the two different degrees. And no I actually am a high school senior. I know in my first post on WSO I said I was a freshman when I asked about an internship, but I knew I wouldn't get serious responses and would just hear that I shouldn't worry about it now. I was considering economics or math instead of comp sci but I really don't want to study upper level proof based math and I am really enjoying my AP Comp Sci class now. I kind of just crossed of econ because it is just theory but it is still a possibility. I felt that the comp sci would be more applicable in other fields in case finance didn't work out. But thanks for all your advice. How would graduating in 4.5 years be?
I would appreciate it if anyone else would include their thoughts.

 

if you can keep your GPA up. Do what interests you and what you're better at, which will probably be the same thing. Really evaluate during your first year what you like and what you think you can handle. Having a high GPA in either math or CS opens up pretty much any door out there, provided you also show interest in whatever you're applying for (finance internships if you're gunning for IB).

 
Millhouse:
Sorry if you guys thought I wasn't being serious. I didn't mean to mislead anybody. Would an S&T internship also be just as beneficial (if not more because derivatives is their specialty) in getting into a sophomore rotational program at a BB?

lol, you spent an entire other thread lying, following up by saying you were serious and didn't want to mislead anyone. If you really want serious responses, tell the fucking truth. "Wait until later" IS a serious response, you only wanted to hear what you already thought.

Comp Sci. isn't applicable across any other field besides computer science itself. Finance and econ are the broad ones. Although some people might see the degree as being able to do hard work, it won't help any more than going all the way in finance, and will actually hurt your GPA. And of course you can move over after you work sophomore year.

Most people don't have anything in finance at all until junior year. Use common sense.

 

Wow I thought that was a little harsh but I will explain myself. That's kind of out of context but it was just a question regarding an internship that I didn't think I would get an answer to as a HS senior (and apparently a college freshman didn't seem to work out well either). Thanks np99sky.

 

i am a double major in finance and comp sci

my advice: don't do comp sci unless you have a passion for it. if not, you'll drop out or do bad. ppl who succeed in comp sci knew before going to college that's what they wanted.

also, it looks better to be strictly finance oriented for banking/trading. if you have comp sci, they'll think you're also applying for programming positions.

 

Harsh, but I'm still answering the questions.

If you're targeting a role specifically in quantitative finance, or certain proprietary trading shops, comp sci might help. But if you learn the languages on your own, and maybe have some kind of project to show for it, you'll be much better off.

High school comp sci is Java, right? In terms of trading, most of what you'll need will be fairly similar and not require much new learning (if you're familiar with java) outside syntax. If you're studying comp sci. in school though, it's a given that everyone there took AP Computer Science. It's still hard.

Take a few classes in it, or at least the intro course to gauge interest -it's pretty interesting, at least to me. It's way too early to really know if you want to go into finance, so it's worth trying out the other option. But just do finance if you want to go into finance.

 

intro to programming course (every school has a unique name for this) and a data structures course. You could also be fine just doing some applied statistics course that uses excel. Its impossible to detail how programming can help you in finance because no one knows what you'll be doing and the potential uses of programming in your life are endless.

Your goal in the beginning is to realize that it is useful (seems like you've accomplished that). From there begin to look up why its useful for what you specifically want to do and keep these things in mind as you're learning. One intro to programming course is good and in the 21st century hard for me to imagine why it isn't included as a part of almost any college curriculum.

 

Is a CS Major required for S&T on the sell Side? Or will a Math major suffice? I'm not targetting prop shops/quant HFs, just banks. So should I just go with math major and practise VBA/SQL/C++/C# heavily? Or should I take a CS major and actually take the bullsh*t Upper year CS theory courses...? I find that going CS major is selling yourself short in a way, as math is way more applicable in greater Financial applications.

 

I learned programming in the math major/ learn on your own fashion. I actually learned some automata/computability theory just because I thought I'd be an Algebraist and that was interesting to me. Some people say that theoretical math is largely useless but I can almost assure you that outside of maybe knowing running times for certain algorithms CS theory is pretty useless. As a math person who doesn't want to just be sitting in front of a computer optimizing code this is not really your niche.

Some people are making money just by writing better algorithms but that most likely won't be your best paying finance job as a programmer if your in a bank. I would think the sell side would be more about structuring/hedging and this is of course more the mathematician's world(but I am not sure on demographics in sell-side quant world). If this is what you want to do then definitely learn VBA/C++/python/Matlab and you should really be fine.

I suggest starting with Python, find a good book on numerical methods in python (where you use scipy and numpy) and try to graph in Matlab. After you learn python pretty well you can get into C++ and VBA but i really think C++ is the right move after Python/Matlab. And you will be absolutely fine with these 3 languages. At that point you will know one high level language with good toolbox still useful, one array-based language and a low level language. Picking up anything else would be pretty easy and the only thing you might need to add would be a statistical language like Stata/R but "programming" in those languages is pretty much English.

 

I apologize if your question was just directed at how to be an a trader or salesman in a bank though. In this case they'd only like to see that you have the ability to speak about programming and more interested that you have knowledge of financial math/probabilities/Economics/daily news.

 

Ya in that case your time is better served keeping up with news and knowing probabilities/financial math. It'll help if you can write matlab/python on your resume though and those languages require maybe 100 hours each to have basic understanding so it's not really all that much.

I can almost guarantee that if you go into an interview knowing the instruments they trade and how they are structured/priced you will get a job in trading.

 

They have some applied stats courses in the CS department that are pretty interesting at my university.. They should have it at yours too, but you might need a few credits first though. Just take any object-oriented programming class along with some algo/data structures class and then something in CS that's more math/stats-related. If you want to learn on your own, I'd recommend learning at least a bit of C++ along with some Matlab or R.

 

if you're really interested in trading, the two opportunities you have on the table are a good place to start. the fact that you don't have more offers coming your way is probably a result of market conditions and not your qualifications. working at drw or citadel will give you great experience as well as an opportunity to prove yourself.

as far as b-school goes, don't concern yourself with it at this point. worry about what you have in front of you currently and concentrate on that. if grad school seems like a logical move in a few years, then shift your focus. who knows - you might become such a good trader that you won't need additional education.

 

I interviewed for a few hedge funds in my senior year as well and the offers I had only gave me 2 weeks or so to decide. If you're in a similar situation you really have no choice but to go with one of the options in front of you.

The other factor here is what your long-term goals are. If you want to work at the best hedge funds or start your own eventually, it's fine to go to DRW/Citadel. The only way those put you at a disadvantage is that you may have fewer options down the road, e.g. at GS/MS it may be easier to transition into some other kind of role if you decide you don't want to do prop trading.

Also, I don't think that many other hedge funds recruit at the undergraduate level and the ones that do have probably already finished... I know Jump Trading (http://www.jumptrading.com/) used to recruit at Stanford and may still to do so but they're probably already done with their process as well.

You should take one of your existing offers and see how the job goes - it will be easier to transition out to another hedge fund after you get some experience, and if you decide you don't want to go that route you can go to business school and switch to something else.

 

I'm also CS, getting my MBA. With a quant background there are a lot of options. As a 1st year MBA I'm looking into Financial Modeling, Quantitative Analysis/Models. You could check into Analytics, Investment Banking in Tech, Venture Capital (also in Tech).

Computer Science opens a ton of doors. Tech companies love having CS majors. Hope that helps!

 

I reckon that a CS grad will have the best opportunities in a non-developer role after having done an MBA (following several years of relevant work exp). The type of work you'd typically be doing in Risk with only CS under your belt would imho be BO-type jobs (implementing models, data handling,...), as you won't have enough (and not the right kind of) math for a pure quant role and not enough Finance for an analyst role (unless you get that knowledge elsewhere, eg CFA).

Other pre-MBA options would imho be either consulting (strategy or tech) or corporate roles at tech firms... But honestly, with all that Big Data and Cloud Computing becoming bigger and bigger, I'd really think twice before discarding developer roles altogether. After a few years, you can still get an MBA and have a rewarding business career...

 

May I ask which uni?

CS to my knowledge goes into tech and algo/trading but with experience in real tech firms, you could probably become a tech-sector analyst. Someone with real experience here will need to bring some input as I'm still a UG myself.

I think quant roles usually want a phd/masters in something quantitative such as math, physics, econometrics etc.

I was going to suggest developer but I've re-read your post and you're set against a dev role. By your interests, a tech-sector analyst role would be perfect?

Offshore liffe
 

If by credentials you mean academic credentials, you should know that In the real world the only credential that matters is revenue generation/job performance.

I don't really know what the landscape for finance recruiting is like in Europe. If you're interested in a specific are (banking, trading, etc), you should try posting this on one of those boards.

I'd think trading would be your best bet. But once again, if you're worried about people's academic credentials, it's not the place for you. Nobody cares how you did in school/where you went to school when you get on the trading floor (at least not in the US). All that matters is profits.

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer "Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee
 

Not necessarily academic credentials. If they have the career performance to back it up then great, it just seemed like Big 4 was for bankers who didnt quite make it and were trying to justify not wanting to. Thats not what I want to be like, I dont mean to be rude about it but at this point in time I have the credentials to get to where I want (whatever that might be) through education, real working experience and extra-curriculars; why should I be settling for second best? I dont know anyone who studied CS and is now trading at an IB, not to say there arent any but it just doesnt seem like its a well-beaten path for CS grads. But then again a lot of the people I know live and dream in code, thats just not what im about though. I think a technology-sector analyst would be perfect yes, just dont often see those listed as grad schemes.

 

Hi greekmyth, I'm happy to share my thoughts on the above. I was a Mathematics major at a non-ivy, top 20 University, and had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do until the beginning of my Junior year. I majored in Mathematics because it was an "all-around" major and was told it would bring great opportunities for graduates.

That being said, Yes. Your bother will be in the same pool as Finance kids, and unfortunately, not trying to be pessimistic here, will be competing against Finance students that have had the Finance experience / background, which to firms, are very valuable.

However, the great news is that it is never a 'dead-end." I networked my ass off, shot cold emails, asked for informational interviews, and self-taught myself the basics of accounting, corporate finance, etc. that was needed for interviews in investment banking (assuming this is the career path your brother is vying for). Goal was to try and email and reach out to bankers who had similar background to mine (in the liberal arts), that "made it." Success rate was solid, in the sense that they understand where your coming from, and have been in your shoes before.

At the end of the day, your brother is smart. Knows what he's doing, and definitely has the capacity to learn what's needed on the day-to-day basis. IMO, I almost always rather have someone that is willing to learn, will bust his ass off to do it, wants to be here, and a great team player to work with. A strong foundation is always good and sht, but you learn almost everything on the job.

Hope this helps and best of luck! Happy crankin'!

 

If he is going into a masters program tell him to do a Internship in high finance this summer and another at a tech firm the following summer if he hasn't already done so. This way he can see what both areas are like.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 

He will be in the same pool as the regular finance kids if he's applying to regular finance jobs. If he applies to any of the quant finance jobs (whether it's quant HF, algo trading, strats at a BB, etc.) he will be in his own separate pool where the regular finance kids won't even be considered.

If he's a strong CS student, he'll be competitive for both development roles at traditional tech firms and at trading shops, which I'm guessing he would gravitate towards anyways. I rarely see strong STEM kids desire to work at banks or in a "regular finance" environment, even though they can.

 

I'd say try to land a spot in Google's APM program or something similar. It's a great mix of business and technical responsibilities.

There is definitely a prestigious feel about it and its extremely competitive. Would be worthwhile trying to get into.

Honestly I'd say try to get into software engineering in general for a top tech company. I know for certain the compensation is roughly 120K-160K with stock options which makes entry level all in around 200K+.

"It is better to have a friendship based on business, than a business based on friendship." - Rockefeller. "Live fast, die hard. Leave a good looking body." - Navy SEAL
 

Yea, I cant see him doing Investment banking. He wont want to work 100 hours. He has taken accounting and will have taken a fair amount of finance classes. He interviews pretty well and I doubt there are many people with his gpa especially in the engineering school.

He cant intern this year because he did a co op. But he has 2 more summers of internships he can do so that might work. Ill look into the google apm. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

Someone lied to you. If his first job is at Google he could make that, but by definition that isnt even close to typical. If you're going to drop 100k and a ton of opportunity cost, he better do a lot more research than "I heard." It's funny to me that your generation just tries to "buy" their way into a desired salary/outcome.

 

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