Disappointed and heartbroken
Target school, 3.5+ GPA, relevant experience (really good SA gig at an IB firm) but still unemployed for FT. I missed out. Im not owed anything by anyone but this fucking sucks. I feel like I let everyone down.
I emailed alumni and cold emailed on linkedin (wasn't too successful-even had others skim my emails), Had first years help me on my resume, Started early (Mid August), mock interviews, sending thank you notes, etc.
Many phone calls, interviews, and even superdays later, I'm still jobless. It sucks because I know I'm qualified and also smarter than most candidates. I don't regret not putting in more work either-I've tried very very hard.
I know the whole shtick..there aren't enough spots for everyone that wants a spot, maybe I'm interviewing poorly, maybe I lack the intangibles. Can someone give some tangible advice-I feel dead inside? Everyone who worked hard for your positions, I wish I was in your spot.
Stay strong my dude. Its easy to feel alone especially when in a target environment w/ friends getting offers left and right, there's another cycle next semester, you'll get something. No JP or GS, but something, and I'd be super grateful even for that. In a very similar boat.
What do you mean about another cycle next semester? Those off-cycle opportunities are pretty rare from what I've heard and there is no timeline for them either as they seem to pop up randomly if at all throughout the semester and may get filled really quickly.
Seriously, grow a sack of nuts. You have hundreds, if not thousands of alumni to ask for advice. Start cold-emailing and drop the defeated yet fragile ivy ego. Who gives a shit about someone else getting an offer. Going to a boutique is hardly a death sentence considering you have the ivy pedigree.
Imagine going to a non-target where you have literally zero alumni and no access to a major finance hub. Not to mention a completely inept career services who sends monster.com like job postings and only has resume drops for b4 accounting at best and the rest are some shitty financial advising program, insurance, etc.
I'd be at the career services every single day until I got an interview if I were you guys. What do you have to lose?
too real, Bill.
Fucking exactly. Seeing posts like his piss me off. I’m at a non target and had to bust my ass to even land a boutique offer and he’s complaining?! With the resources he has?! Loooool. Grow up dude. You’re at a target—you can legit get into any field you want with minimal effort. I know some idiot at Stanford who landed at MS Menlo Park solely because the group thought he was a chiller.
My man is back in action
How do ENTITLED MILLENIALS expect to pay for their AVOCADO TOAST if they're UNEMPLOYED? smh
Say a prayer to Jesus. I did almost 20 or so interviews with no offers and then started going to church and even said a prayer and converted on my last 2 superdays. Correlation = Causation.
I feel you brother. Stay strong and keep trying and keep reaching out to boutiques.
Toonsquad, unfortunately you did let many people down. However, you are definitely smarter than most of the other candidates. I heard BB banks were only looking for idiots during this most recent recruiting cycle. Best of luck in dumbing yourself down enough to become competitive for a full time offer.
Hey man, if it makes you feel better I'm in a similar boat to you. You can only feel sorry for yourself for a few days, and then it becomes "Do I shift gears and now start heavily recruiting for boutiques, or do I just give up and try for something else?". I guess everyone's answer to that question will be different
First off stay positive, life is far from over. Secondly, it's more than likely your interviewing style that is the issue. Try to work through some mock interviews with people who will be brutally honest with you. Maybe, you say things that could come off bad without knowing it, maybe you don't answer the question that is asked could be anything.
Check out MSF programs.
Nova!
Keep at it, and get rid of the "I'm smarter than everyone else" attitude. As far as I can understand, you did get a SA gig but no return offer? Unless that was the case due to circumstances beyond your control (ex. the firm simply not hiring) that should've raised a red flag right there. It's possible recruiters thought the same, especially seeing as how FT recruiting is more competitive.
Your options include directly going for a masters degree (preferable if you're in Europe), or working in a related field for a couple of years and shooting for a top 10 MBA. Meanwhile, keep practicing and hustling. You only fail once you give up.
Did you ask why you didn't get a return offer? Start there. Also, saying you're smarter than other candidates, true or not, shows incredible arrogance. Finally, you need to submit perfect applications to at least 40 firms for FT employment to even a reasonable sample.
As others pointed out already, there's lots of places you can start other than in IB (and still, you can get in later). I struggle to understand why everyone is so set on IB in the first place (but that's another discussion).. Get another gig or network your way into a boutique or even a smaller fund. Alternatively, you can start in consulting or even at a corporate - that is not the end of the world.
If you're good enough, you'll get a chance eventually and probably soon. Btw being humble and down to earth is one of the most valued qualities nowadays. No one wants to work with a guy who thinks he's smarter than anyone else or generally has a bad attitude. This advice comes from someone who was not at a target and didn't have top notch grades but got an offer (without an internship at the firm, though obviously with other relevant experiences) for GS/MS/JP. Merely pointed out the latter to make you realize that there's always a chance and that if you're good enough, things will work out.
IB is most sought after for optics only. Anyone in the industry knows going straight to AM/HF/PE etc. without having to do the bullshit 2 years of ib is not nearly as bad as this site portrays. There is nothing wrong with cutting your teeth in a solid PE or AM shop that isn't KKR/BX/Fido/etc.
Frankly, I don't see why non-targets don't seek other roles outside of BB IBD either. Those firms have a rigid recruiting channel to keep you out. Why not go straight to buyside where your competency matters more than what school you went to?
To clarify, my point about not understanding everyone pursuing IBD was not targeted specifically to alumni/students of target schools and was not meant as a criticism in any way. Beyond that, I wasn't implying nor recommending that the author should start at one of the above firms. On the contrary, I was implying that the individual could go join what is considered a less prestigious firm (less prestigious by WSO-terms), get a bit of experience and then get a chance to join IBD if that's what he/she wants.
FYI, I ended up turning down the BB offer for AM (BLCK/PIMCO/FID). Going straight to attractable buyside jobs with the reasoning that you can't get into a BB is nonsense.
This is what happens when you have a fucking complete prestige whore fuckfest culture on the site and at ivies. I've literally heard someone call University of Chicago a non-target. I mean do you realize how many people at ivies don't even get offers or interviews to begin with? Don't believe me? Look at the threads on wso. Everyone is only seeking the EBs, BBs, and top MM shops even if they're flat out unqualified (shit experience, non-target, bad grades, etc.) and/or not well-connected. Then when you go on their profiles they stop posting after recruiting cycles are over and their BB IBD dream they thought would be handed to them is over.
Why not go for credit risk, corp dev, fldps with cool rotations, etc.? Or is it because it's beneath you and your top smarts?
Seriously, there are other ways to make 100k+ in a short period of time (2 years or less).
And August isn't early to start looking at ft. You should have started that in January to hedge your bets for the very possible chance of no return offer.
As far as advice, I'd start hitting up firms that can lateral you to ib later down the road. Feel free to pm for some names (hardos: this isn't an open invite) and I can send some over. Boutiques, valuation shops, MO roles that are legit (JPM/GS risk), fldps with corp dev, etc.
Sorry for the angry tone but I am sick and tired of hearing people expecting an elite job. You can network, go to a top school, get a bb internship, cool ECs, etc. and still end up empty-handed.
-hurt
Toonsquad, I mean this with all due respect, but judging from your experience, it seems like you're coming across as someone difficult to work with and/or unlikable. I say this because you failed to get a return offer, had no real success in networking, and despite having first years look at your resume, seemingly had no one really go to bat for you come FT recruiting. It seems like you have all the pieces of the puzzle (target, good GPA, IB SA), but are missing the final one: personality. I could be misreading, so don't get offended if I am.
You should have done this months ago, but you need to figure out why you did not get that return offer. Then, you need to figure out what went wrong during recruiting. Failure to fix both of these issues will result in a continued failure to break into IB. Next, hit up some alumni who were receptive to you to see if their banks are still looking and start the process of reaching out to boutiques. You might have to spend a year at a boutique before lateraling, but the IB dream is far from over. Good luck.
I agree with all that you said, but notwithstanding; if this kid says he's smarter than everyone, i wouldn't even phone screen this kid based on that alone.
i don't have any empathy for situations like this. if you truly were "smarter" than everyone else, you should have already learned from your mistakes and secured a FT offer. The saying goes you know what you know and you don't know what you don't know. time to pick up those imaginary big sack of balls and cold call. a few months at comcast call center may very well be the best learning experience op will ever receive.
humble the fuck up - you are not better than anyone. this is truly amazing to me to have this kind of entitlement
100%. It really sickens me to see people who think they're entitled to anything, much less some of the most competitive jobs in the world. When I went through recruiting, I obviously knew I had a good shot at a top firm, but I still applied all the way down the ladder and didn't think I was above working anywhere.
There's a huge difference between humble confidence and arrogance. Confidence is key during the recruiting process, but arrogance is an instant ding. Actually a lot of kids are dinged for arrogant stuff during the interview process. One of the most common reasons for an otherwise smart kid to be eliminated.
Did you ensure your opportunity set was sufficiently wide? There are some fantastic shops on a different scale than BB/EB that offer small teams, meaning tough personalities that'll teach you a lot and tons of work. But those kids often place well into the unique circles of those environments (anecdotally - Shea in Boston --> tech VC). In a way, that's even better than churning through each layer of competition along the way on the JPM->PE->B school track.
lmao
He needs some milk
If you need a friend, get a dog.
I've had a very unconventional route into finance and, no joke, here is my route:
semi target undergrad>>pro sport (very shitty low level)>> rapper/songwriter for pop artists trying to suck enough dick to make it in the industry>>>Needing money to do my own project plus wanting to get a skill set that can apply to as many opps as possible so i can actually make money in case fail which odds are I will>> fake my way into analyst recruiting even though i was 4 years removed from school>>>35 interviews used to incrementally improve at interviewing till i got pretty good but ultimately told to fuck off>> 36th offer got into no-name boutique but (despite being desperate and getting threats from my GF that she'd never go down on me again until I got a job) turned it down to get branding best I could>>37th interview: offer into mid-market shit part of an otherwise major bank>> offer to lateral to one of top teams in industry (think CV M&A or GS TMT)>> turned offer down to pursue top buyside interview processes I was deep in because i felt like too much of a dick to just accept lateral offer and leave the new bank after 8 months(broke up with my GF and stepped up the slay game)>>> didn't get buyside MF>> back to lateral recruiting to up my branding>>> got offer and am now on one of top teams in the game as a tier one analyst >> got enough dough to finish major music project I'd wanted to do this whole time...
I can tell you the one constant throughout all this shit: Getting the skill set so fucking good that any team would feel I'm a major asset. "Ask not what your bank can do for you but what you can do for your mothafucking bank." - John F. Kennedy (F is for fuckyoumoney)
The truth is that deep down a huge majority of folks trying to get their first jobs are defining success by the brand and, despite the obvious logic behind that, overlooking the emphasis on one's own self-improvement. The information you need is on the internet (BIWS, 10-Ks, articles, interviews, etc.) and if you missed out on the main train but are committed to doing this then you can fucking get in the game one way or another.Your goal should be to bring the best advice for any clients you can, truly solving problems and thus creating value in the world. Yes of course, the best way to accelerate your growth is to learn in a developmental program and from top practitioners. But if you're 85 years old sitting in a hovering old home with some high tech VC backed catheter, and you look back and realize you fell behind by a year or two because you started at an off-brand shop (where you probably get more exposure to the actual dealmaking) before going to the big time, are you really going to think the trajectory of your life was all that fucking different than you're hoping now? Sure, be upset that you missed out and be motivated, but man the fuck up and make it happen if you really aren't just about walking around with your resume tattered on your dick because it says "Analyst-and-bottom-of the-totem-pole-but-it-opens-alot-of-doors at Goldman Sachs".
Fin.
Gold.
hi awesome advice. could you go into detail about this thanks
My thought process was centered around acknowledging the fact that to reach certain heights within finance it'd be ideal to do so in a structured analyst program but it's truly up to me and what I can offer the banking/private equity/hedge fund team I'm joining that will amount to long term success/job offers. Sure, being a top analyst isn't necessarily about being the most equipped banker. It's got a lot more to do with playing your role and making the entire team, especially your MD, look as sharp as possible to keep the deal pipeline flowing smoothly over the long run. However, my internal goal was to have the capacity to run my own deal and serve my clients with advice as good and if not better than the rest of my team including MDs. I know it's an unrealistic goal but I think that mindset accelerates growth for the long run. One minor example as a guy/girl trying to break in would be thinking about how much help you can be to a team if you don't need hand holding. If it's as simple as "Hey analyst, MD wants to run these analyses on our comp set for this DCF and I'm swamped with another deal so can you run the entire valuation first draft on your own before I take a look?" and you're ready to break down the bottoms -up revenue/expense drivers and make assumptions regarding industry trends into the FCF projection period that make sense, then you're taking tons of pressure off of the team's back and allowing for them to increase the number of clients they can take on and ultimately drive $$$. So make sure you are getting yourself prepared to make deliverables with very little hand holding and very few mistakes, especially when not rushed. Again, you can be in a noname boutique or top bulge but if you apply this mindset it'll get you to the top and keep you going that direction perpetually. Where you are currently is just a snapshot in time and with the right mindset your bossness will stabilize in the long run. I'd also be paying attention to macro/micro news and trends to really think about cause and effect impacts such as proliferation of smart devices leading to consolidation in the wireless tech industry and which clients we may want to align ourselves with as far as advisory roles in anticipation of deals in the next two years. That seems far fetched and theoretical but it's what MDs and teams are thinking about regularly. You want to be in relationships before their shit hits the fan.
These are a few very acute examples that are part of a much larger scope but the big take away should be as follows:
Think big picture and where your work lies in the context of these teams/companies while knowing damn well that the information you need to be able to become valuable at an analyst level is all on the internet. You can learn to model, fix up logo decks and all the other stuff that goes into an analyst position. Trying to break in is essentially asking someone to let you do the work nobody else wants to do at first. There is no need to do this work at GS since day one. Of course, it puts you on the fast track and that's normally fantastic but you can become as valuable as any of these analysts if you start at "Noname & Co." in Buttfuck, PA and push yourself with all the resources out there.
"Smarter than most other candidates" "3.5 GPA"
Ok bro
To be fair GPA doesn't correlate as much with intelligence as it does with dedication and motivation. I was pretty unmotivated and thus didn't have a GPA (still 3.5+) that I feel represents my intelligence. It did stop me from getting some interviews I felt like (mainly GS and Moelis), but I am still going to an EB this summer. And during many interviews I was told that it was obvious that I was smart - assuming from the way I talked about things.
What I was trying to get at is he could legitimately be smarter than other candidates and not have a good GPA just because he wasn't motivated for those classes. The reasons he probably failed was because he got too cocky - I bet he didn't even apply to MM firms because they're "beneath" him - and a shitty personality or work ethic that put him in 20% of kids that don't get return offers
"My technical skills are unmatched, I did Wall Street Prep."
-Robert DuVal
This is a teaching moment. You gotta step back and reflect hard on your process. You're good enough clearly. You just need a bit of confidence which is the secret sauce.
Reach out to boutiques and work hard to get more projects that will allow you to speak in depth at interviews. Keep networking. Stop complaining. There are many boutiques that would like to have someone with your credentials.
Took me 7 years from the time I graduated to getting what you might call a FO position. And I wouldn't trade where I'm at now for GS, KKR or whatever you can think of (well maybe not Rentech).
It took hundreds of jobs apps to stuff I was qualified for, last round interviews across oceans, and not getting one single offer I was interested in for 7 years. But I'm where I wanted to be. If I had gotten the position I'm in now straight out of college, I might be head of my desk now, but I more likely would have burnt out or coasted at some point.
Use this time to figure out where you really want your career to go, get creative, build some skills. Forget about 'disappointing' other people, by the time I got my dream job I had maybe one friend who still believed I could get it. Don't give up. Do it for you.
This actually reminds me I've been taking it way too easy lately. Going to eat some people for breakfast on Monday.
This is exactly why people can't stand a lot of Ivy kids.
There's a good chunk who are down-to-earth go-getters and a good chunk who are entitled and annoying.
Keep your chin up! You just have to keep grinding it out.
Try to make your interviews more of a conversation than just a back and forth with questions. Try to expand your net and look for opportunities outside of BB. The most important thing is to be confident going into interviews.
I managed to get a FT without any SA experience whatsoever coming from a semi-target. If I can do it, so can you!
"Lifes a bitch and then you die" -Jamie Dimon
Super non-target here, probably football if not, moon distance miles away from even being looked at given my age and background for the potential you have in terms of opportunities. If you let this get you down, how are you supposed to grind through the 2 years of crap being thrown at you?
If I had seen something like this many years ago, I would envy you, I really would. We are all human though, and I am in a giving mood tonight.
I do not understand why you compare yourself to your colleagues, last time reality check came in, they are not the ones paying for your bills or feeding you. Get a grip and don't look at them, it is not going to help you.
Secondly, what Sil said, it could be true. However, to move on further, this is a relationship-driven business. People need to be able to like you, not for your smarts, but for you as well. I would take the time to work in a customer service role (server, sales, etc.) if you have the time to build up stronger communication skills with other people, or find a coach.
Good luck.
Whats going to define you and your future is how you act in a time of crisis. You can say "oh woe is me" but that gets you NOWHERE... or you can pull your pants up and do what everyone else here has done... worked and networked until you make what you want happen. Saying youre smarter than every other candidate and making excuses doesnt help you... they got the position and theres a reason why. You find it and fix it. And not getting a job in banking isnt the end of the world. Plenty of great jobs out there. Good luck.
Almost makes me happy I don't have the best academic brand behind me or the best resources for career advancement. A little hunger goes a long way in building resilience and creativity in not finding but rather CREATING opportunities for oneself. A cliche at this point but think outside the box.
Here are the 2017 numbers for a target school (H/Y/P):
Centerview 1 Evercore 2 Moelis 1 Lazard 3 Citigroup 6 Goldman Sachs 14 Credit Suisse 3 JP Morgan 7 Morgan Stanley 10 Bank of America Merrill Lynch 4 Barclays 4
In summary, I'd say these positions are still extremely competitive even coming from target schools. It's impossible to know how many students applied to these roles, but I'd assume acceptance rates are low.. >25% probably >10%
For example, if you assume all 120 students who ended up working in finance applied to GS IBD, that's 14/120=12%
Honestly I was giving the target kids benefit of the doubt with difficulty but these odds sound really freaking good to me
Fair enough. The odds at target schools are significantly better than anywhere else, as they arguably should be - the 75th percentile math SAT score at HYP is an 800.
But the point I wanted to make was that irregardless, the vast majority of kids are disappointed at the end of recruiting. I think students at target school see their friends landing sweet jobs left and right and it distorts their perception of how competitive these positions are..
Ultimately, a 3.7 Econ major at Harvard needs to cast a wide net and hustle to build a network just like everyone else in order to break into IB. I don't think it was nearly this competitive even a decade ago.
Last year's numbers for an east coast target:
BX: 2 (they usually hire 0 I think) Apollo: 3 (I think last year was an anomaly, they usually hire 1 for credit/real estate) MM PE: 2
GS: 3 IB, 3 S&T MS: 5 IB, 5 GCM, 6 S&T JPM: 6 IB, 4S&T
BAML: 3 IB, 2 S&T Citi: 1 IB (seriously), 4 Capital Markets
Barclays: 3 IB, 2 S&T DB: 6 IB, 5 S&T UBS: 1 IB
Lazard/Evercore/Moelis/PJT combined: 2
So, that's 68 kids total in front office roles at investment banks/PE firms across IB, capital markets, and S&T. There are about 180 kids every year who are serious about finance recruiting and go out and network (way more who drop their resume). So, for the majority of kids, Bulge Bracket finance jobs do not work out. For only 38% it does. Furthermore, many of the above spots go to blacks and hispanics - for Asian and white males it is even harder to get these jobs.
My point is, going to a target and having a 3.5+ is not enough these days if you are an Asian/white male. Going to a target is just the first step, you need to:
Honestly your GPA matters the most by far. There are always many kids with 3.9s who don't do shit on campus who get back to back first rounds at GS, MS, Apollo, and BAML.
Even many Wharton kids with 3.5+ don't get bulge bracket finance internships - talk to anyone who goes there. Get rid of the entitlement complex and keep grinding. IB and finance in general is more competitive than ever.
and have a good story, dont give them what they have heard even 10+ times
I got BB from hella non target, just a big networking game.
You'd be shocked at the amount of kids who have very forgettable stories. Really all it comes down to.
If you sit down with people, have an interesting story, and work hard enough you will land in a solid shop. Just dont think to0 hard about it, it is just a job.
Kappa
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