Ending Diversity Programs For Good - When will it happen?

 

As someone who went to a state school and actually had to bust my ass off to break into a Bulge Bracket out of school (graduated 2016) I have genuinely gotten exhausted at looking at extremely underqualified candidates getting offers thrown at them through diversity. It's universally known that if you went to a public high school, you essentially have to get perfect grades / test scores to even get into a WashU / UVA type school which isn't even in the upper-tier of Wall Street feeders. So basically unless you're a "diversity" candidate you are required to get perfect grades / test scores from the age of 14 in order to qualify for jobs at age 25 / 26 / 27. The fact that certain roles / program that are only open to "diversity" candidates is actually maddening to me.

 

As someone who was involved in my group's recruitment pipeline, I was forced to basically hand out interviews and pass extremely sub-par interviewees on to final round interviews simply because they were affiliated with SEO / MLT / some diversity program. I am genuinely curious to all the diversity candidates out there, how do you feel about diversity recruiting? If you are seriously pushing for equal opportunity (not equal results) wouldn't you be opposed to these diversity programs? Don't you want to actually earn your offers through merit? How is reserving almost 75% of all entry level positions to 10% of the analyst pool promoting anything close to a meritocracy?? 

 

With that I want to open a forum to people who have benefitted from diversity programs and affiliated pipelines. When will this diversity PR stunt be over? At what point are the diversity candidates willing to stand-up for their non-affluent Asian / White peers that didn't go to Exeter or Andover who have to work 2X harder for 1/2 of the result???

Comments (187)

 
Controversial
  • Prospect in IB - Gen
Sep 20, 2020 - 6:47pm

Grow the fuck up, there's a reason these programs have been put in place, stop acting like there's no chance for non-diversity people to break in. Most of the street is STILL predominantly made up for straight white dudes. If you think these programs are the reason you aren't progressing in life it's time for a wake up call; the problem isn't diversity programs, maybe you're just not as competitive as a candidate as you think you are (you also seem like you've got an IB gig so I really don't understand why you're bitching about this). Make the most of the opportunities around you and stop whining about programs MEANT FOR OTHER PEOPLE. As a white/asian male you have no say in what diversity students need/want/deserve so shut the fuck up and go back to working on your slide deck

 
  • Prospect in IB - Gen
Sep 20, 2020 - 8:09pm

I'm asian, I don't even benefit from these programs, I can 100% see who does though and yeah maybe SOME of the people who get in aren't the most intelligent, but the reason for that is because they've got other shit to deal with in life that a white person cannot truly know. As an asian I deal with nowhere near the same amount of injustice that black and indigenous folks deal with, and white people will never understand what any POC goes through in life. Working at 100% drive as a POC and as a white person doesn't yield the same results, and although money is a factor there are wealthy/affluent/well off POC who also face a shit ton of discrimination; money doesn't suddenly mean the problems black people face is eliminated....

I do not think these programs are perfect. One example: a few weeks back some guy posted that he was not considered diversity even though he was from a poor village in Sumatra, but because of the "model minority" stuff due to successful Chinese-Americans, lots of east asian groups were discriminated against by these programs. 100% agree that's a problem. THERE IS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT, but the people on this site don't care about improving these programs, they want to eliminate them "because they don't do anything". If they even help ONE person, then that's one step in the right direction. In your entire 20, 25, 30 years of life you probably have done absolutely nothing to help solve racial inequalities in America so do not go on complaining about the VERY FEW programs and institutions that are at least TRYING. Seriously, people on this site piss me the fuck off sometimes with how entitled they are.

 
  • Intern in IB - Gen
Sep 20, 2020 - 7:40pm

I think it's fair to say that a lot more junior people are diverse these days. We can't change that the industry is mostly straight white men. Not a big fan of diversity programs because they exclude a lot of people. A lot of poor people are neglected, especially of white / asian descent. More than half the world is asian (over 5 billion) and we're discriminating them because of chinese and indians... If you just remove those two categories Asians are severely underrepresented. 

 
Sep 20, 2020 - 9:03pm

Awhhhh that's so cute, a "prospect in IB" is trying to give me advice. Let me set you straight in that the reason why these diversity programs have been put in place is for banks to basically get positive PR on their websites through publicizing pictures. Asians make up 5% of the population in the U.S and we don't complain about prejudice even though we've been discriminated 10X more than these "Latino" candidates who are basically just European descendants.

 

Maybe you should shut the fuck up and get over your insecurities. I've progressed fine in my career considering I worked at a top coverage group at a top-bulge bracket bank and made top-bucket analyst all of my years before exiting to PE. You clearly don't faith in your own abilities and deep down know that without these diversity programs and handouts you probably wouldn't even be able get 2nd round interviews. Have fun attending all these "launching leaders" programs by the way, I'm sure you had to work really hard to get them.

 

Also good luck with your future endeavors. Quick hint from someone who has conducted many interviews - make sure you study that one question on walking someone through the 3 financial statements... A lot of "diversity candidates" tend struggle with that one!  

 
  • Prospect in IB - Gen
Sep 20, 2020 - 9:14pm

I'm asian I don't even qualify for diversity programs, the fact that you think that only a black/indigenous/LGBTQ/female person can stand up for minorities is EXACTLY the program. I don't give a fuck if you're making a million a year, working at a top BB, or working as a fucking janitor, I don't respect people because of the money they make or the job they hold. I look up to people who are passionate about making a difference in the world, treat ALL people with respect, and are aware of the various of the issues we have in the world. You're right, I'm just a prospect, but I am not the one who is insecure, YOU'RE the one who came on a forum (filled predominantly with uni kids) to rant about diversity students even though you're "so successful in your career". I am confident in my abilities and hope people who could benefit from diversity efforts actually do go through them. Anyone who was rejected by you definitely dodged a bullet. You're exactly the type of person I never want to meet in my life.

 
  • Intern in IB - Ind
Sep 20, 2020 - 6:58pm

I'm a non-target diversity candidate and I'm ready to put in my heart and soul into the work. I look forward to hearing constructive criticism regarding my work and however else I can improve, but I don't look forward to be resented for taking an opportunity. I know this system is quite flawed, and I understand your frustration. I hope folks at my firm don't have this attitude towards us. If we're genuinely bad at the job- please throw us out, but don't assume we're bad before we even start working. 

 
Sep 20, 2020 - 9:25pm

I don't think anyone would have personal animosity towards candidates as individuals. Congratulations on securing and internship by the way, glad to see that college students are remaining ambitious. However, keep in mind many of you Asian/White peers are also willing to "put their hear and soul into the work". Don't you feel that you should also stick up for your Asian / White peers? You are given opportunities and roles that don't even allow Asian candidates to apply for, even though most Asian countries were colonized by Imperial Europe.

 
  • Intern in IB - Ind
Sep 20, 2020 - 10:20pm

First off- I am asian and yes, Chinese/Indian...  and yes I am aware how hard-working my white/asian peers are. Any statement in this debate will upset someone so I stated things that had to do with me as an individual. And as for sticking up for my white and asian (frankly whichever race) friends/peers, I do stick up for them when needed- thank you for asking and sorry you weren't invited to our weekly meetings where we stick up for each other, and then post about it anonymously on an online forum so strangers know that we stick up for each other. I clearly said that the system is flawed, but wouldn't I be the biggest fucking moron if I declined the diversity pipeline because "DivErsIty sUx"? If you were in our shoes, it's fair to assume, you'd have jumped at the opportunity. 

 
  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Sep 20, 2020 - 10:33pm

 

I'm a non-target diversity candidate and I'm ready to put in my heart and soul into the work. I look forward to hearing constructive criticism regarding my work and however else I can improve, but I don't look forward to be resented for taking an opportunity. I know this system is quite flawed, and I understand your frustration. I hope folks at my firm don't have this attitude towards us. If we're genuinely bad at the job- please throw us out, but don't assume we're bad before we even start working. 

Don't listen to these people. You belong. They just racist but you can't really change them. Thousands of years ago their ancestors were scared racists too. Find people who want to help and just ignore the other ones. But as long as you take care of yourself and stand tall on your values, these people are irrelevant.

 
Sep 20, 2020 - 11:00pm

At what point in human history did India / China / Philipine / any Asian country aside from Imperial Japan ever enslave or colonize another country????? You guys considering "Latino" People diversity is actually laughable. The majority of them are literally just descendants of Spaniards / Italians who enslaved all of indigenous North America and now they get rewarded with "Diversity" 

 
Sep 20, 2020 - 7:09pm

Like I keep saying, diversity programs should be more about outreach and providing resources so more URMs become actually qualified.

Quota and quota adjacent programs hurt everyone.

You think just accepting more minorities is gonna work, you're gravely mistaken. It's like treating someone with cancer with bunch of opioids instead of treating the freaking disease.

 
  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Sep 20, 2020 - 10:37pm

Milton Friedchickenman

Like I keep saying, diversity programs should be more about outreach and providing resources so more URMs become actually qualified.

Quota and quota adjacent programs hurt everyone.

You think just accepting more minorities is gonna work, you're gravely mistaken. It's like treating someone with cancer with bunch of opioids instead of treating the freaking disease.

All education related policy is about making it a smoother transition for those already interested. Not informed enough as to why, but if you think about it, the reasons someone is not interested or unable to compete academically tend towards things outside of their control (wealth, at home situation, etc). The goal is to increase leadership ranks of URM to explore other angles to tackle the systemic challenges through improved relationships between our nation's systems and communities.

 
Sep 20, 2020 - 10:49pm

The goal is yes. But still, the best way to do so is to literally provide the resources these people need to help themselves. They don't need some artificially controlled spots.

They need mentorship, more books, new perspectives, etc... Various outreach and educational programs really do wonders in that regard.

 
  • Analyst 2 in IB - Ind
Sep 20, 2020 - 7:45pm

Oh yeah, wall street was known to be super meritocratic before diversity hiring. 

Diversity is about revenue too. You really think diverse management wants to be pitched to by 10 straight white men?

If you're still complaining about this you need to grow up and learn to interview better. It doesn't take much to be an analyst, so please don't pretend that more technical students will be better analysts-MDs.

 
  • Analyst 2 in IB - Gen
Sep 20, 2020 - 8:40pm

1) diversity hiring is straight up racial discrimination. There is no getting around that. The debate becomes whether the ends justify the means

2) elite, well connected white people traditionally dominated Wall Street hiring via old boys club networks and privileges. Legacy admissions, etiquette, family connections etc.

3) blacks, Hispanics, and Asians never had any sort of advantage of the sort described above

4) People of all races were able to overcome this disadvantage prior to the onset of diversity recruiting. However, the outcome was still very heavily white and male, with almost everyone else being Asian and male.

5) Most Asian people in the USA, and indeed most white people, never had access to the traditional advantages given to rich white kids with well connected parents.

6) Today, the rich white kids with well connected parents still reap the benefits of their privileges in recruiting. However, an enormous portion of remaining spots go to people from diversity recruiting.

7) A huge portion of diversity hires are rich white connected girls. A huge number are rich white connected gays. Of the remaining, many are rich, connected internationals. All of these people benefit from 2 structural advantages that hardworking white and Asian males from a modest background don't have: the traditional leg up plus the diversity leg up.

8) A small number of diversity candidates are actually who the programs are "designed" for.

9) Asian males often have even more additional obstacles to overcome in recruiting because its societally ok to stereotype them as weird and nerdy

 
Sep 20, 2020 - 8:43pm

White liberal racists: "Black people need White people's help. Weh weh. I swear I'm not racist." (Sounds a lot like that "white men's burden" used to justify colonialism...)

Black People: Leave us the f*** alone. We want to be judged by our characters, not race (literally MLK Jr's, message).

Grown-ups: Since when was it okay to just have quotas and not give people what they actually need? URMs need resources - books, career development workshops, good K-12 education - not quotas. 

 
  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Sep 20, 2020 - 9:01pm

Imagine if sports had diversity programs.

NBA GMs: Sorry Kobe Bryant/Michael Jordan (players not drafted in the top 10 picks). We can only draft 10 black players in the first round.

MJ: But I'm the GOAT.

NBA GMs: sorry we want diversity in the league.

I don't mind banks having diversity quotas. But y'all really be making the dumbest arguments to defend these programs.

TLDR: Diversity path is easier. There's is probably a non diversity candidate who is more qualified than the diversity candidate who beat them out. Life isn't fair.

 
  • Intern in IB-M&A
Sep 20, 2020 - 9:53pm

Thanks for your ideas bro! Let me hit up our Head of Culture, I will let him know about this brilliant idea.

 

He just got back to me and said - do you ever wonder who build the expensive apartment you're living in, the parking lot you leave your car in? The mexican construction guys. Working 10+ hour days, breaking their backs in the scorching heat.

 

But no, we are not a culture that works hard nor is cut out for intellectual pursuits. Our culture is definitely catered towards slave-like labor only. Yeah man, we really need to change that. Thanks for enlightening me.

 
Most Helpful
Sep 20, 2020 - 9:54pm

I went to HYPS and can't tell you the number of under-qualified classmates -- all white -- who got internships through family connections.

There was a girl who went to GS because her father ran a large HF in New York. There was a guy who went to Allen & Co. because his mom was friends with Herb Allen. There was a guy who went to MS because his dad was an MD there. There was a girl who got a job at Credit Suisse AFTER the school year ended because her dad was the CEO of a large F1000 company and was a client of the firm. There was my friend's gf -- who was a great person -- but she had no idea what she wanted to do. She studied anthropology or some shit. For junior-year summer internship, she called daddy. Daddy was a multi-billionaire on Forbes and he called his banker at UBS. UBS asked her what group she wanted to be in and what location. She said London, because Europe for the summer would be fun. So she spent her summer in London. The list goes on.

These are just within the people I knew. Then, when I actually became a VP at MS, I was heavily involved in recruiting. That is where I saw firsthand how unfair things actually were. We received resumes from kids of client and employees all of the time. All white. Some were good, most were average (and wouldn't stand a chance against anyone here on WSO), and some were good awful. We hired a handful of them. I remember there was a kid whose dad was CEO of a company that our M&A group represented on multiple deals. His son went to community college and then transferred to some shit school where he barely had a 3.0 GPA. He spent his entire summer talking about private jets and partying with a bunch of other rich and famous kids. And let's not forget about all of the resumes that we got from some MD's kid or family friend. Let's also not forget all of the resumes that get pushed by all of the other employees at the firm. Hell, I even passed along family member's for a summer analyst position AFTER I had left (she went to semi-target and probably would have gotten overlooked). 

But there is one thing that I can honestly say with certainty -- during my 5+ years at MS, I never saw a black guy or Hispanic kid or an Asian/Indian kid get through because of some connection. Only white kids. 

I can also go on about all of the specific examples of racism that I saw when I was sitting in roundtables reviewing associate and analyst candidates. When a VP in my group says that he doesn't think a candidate will be a good "cultural fit", whose "culture" do you think he is referring to? 

These diversity programs are not perfect by any means. But it's a start. The reason they exist is because the system FAVORS white people so much.

But here is the biggest irony of your post. You should be THANKFUL that these banks have opened their doors to people who don't historically belong there. Every bank could fill their entire class with privileged white kids from Ivy League schools or "friends" of the firm. You really think that there is a place for some kid from a state school with no connections who busted his ass to be the best? Yeah, maybe in middle or back office. Or do you actually think you are the exception? But I get it -- you just want to be racist. 

 
Sep 20, 2020 - 10:06pm

This guy gets it. 

 

Similar experience with what you just laid out here perfectly.

 

I'm the only black dude in the M&A group at my firm. Was finally excited when I saw the resume of another black guy who wanted to lateral hire into our firm. My MD threw out his resume and when asked why, "I don't think he'll be a good fit" he said. Ended up hiring a white guy from another less prestigious MM firm. Never even talked to the black guy or brought him in for an interview, but I gotta hear it from these retards who think the "one black guy" out of the other 90% white employees hired, got in due to "diversity." Pisses me tf off.

 

You sir, get a banana.

 
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:27am

tyronejinga

Was finally excited when I saw the resume of another black guy who wanted to lateral hire into our firm. My MD threw out his resume and when asked why, "I don't think he'll be a good fit" he said. Ended up hiring a white guy from another less prestigious MM firm. Never even talked to the black guy or brought him in for an interview,

Didn't happen. 

 
  • Intern in Other
Sep 20, 2020 - 10:16pm

The game is rigged, this post literally shows it. Tired of white people crying all day because one black or Hispanic kid got into a bank lmfao.

EDIT: Seriously though, I'm really happy you told us about your experience especially being in the industry. 99% of the rest of this thread is ugrads who jack off the Ben Shapiro all day.

 
  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Sep 21, 2020 - 12:39am

But there is one thing that I can honestly say with certainty -- during my 5+ years at MS, I never saw a black guy or Hispanic kid or an Asian/Indian kid get through because of some connection. Only white kids. 

So why are there programs that give black and hispanic kids an advantage but not asian/indian kids? URMs have diversity programs and white kids have connections. Diversity programs either have to end or have to include asian/indian kids. But then again banks dont give a fuck about actual diversity but just some more representation of URMs for PR purposes.

 
  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am

hominem

I went to HYPS and can't tell you the number of under-qualified classmates -- all white -- who got internships through family connections.

There was a girl who went to GS because her father ran a large HF in New York. There was a guy who went to Allen & Co. because his mom was friends with Herb Allen. There was a guy who went to MS because his dad was an MD there. There was a girl who got a job at Credit Suisse AFTER the school year ended because her dad was the CEO of a large F1000 company and was a client of the firm. There was my friend's gf -- who was a great person -- but she had no idea what she wanted to do. She studied anthropology or some shit. For junior-year summer internship, she called daddy. Daddy was a multi-billionaire on Forbes and he called his banker at UBS. UBS asked her what group she wanted to be in and what location. She said London, because Europe for the summer would be fun. So she spent her summer in London. The list goes on.

These are just within the people I knew. Then, when I actually became a VP at MS, I was heavily involved in recruiting. That is where I saw firsthand how unfair things actually were. We received resumes from kids of client and employees all of the time. All white. Some were good, most were average (and wouldn't stand a chance against anyone here on WSO), and some were good awful. We hired a handful of them. I remember there was a kid whose dad was CEO of a company that our M&A group represented on multiple deals. His son went to community college and then transferred to some shit school where he barely had a 3.0 GPA. He spent his entire summer talking about private jets and partying with a bunch of other rich and famous kids. And let's not forget about all of the resumes that we got from some MD's kid or family friend. Let's also not forget all of the resumes that get pushed by all of the other employees at the firm. Hell, I even passed along family member's for a summer analyst position AFTER I had left (she went to semi-target and probably would have gotten overlooked). 

But there is one thing that I can honestly say with certainty -- during my 5+ years at MS, I never saw a black guy or Hispanic kid or an Asian/Indian kid get through because of some connection. Only white kids. 

I can also go on about all of the specific examples of racism that I saw when I was sitting in roundtables reviewing associate and analyst candidates. When a VP in my group says that he doesn't think a candidate will be a good "cultural fit", whose "culture" do you think he is referring to? 

These diversity programs are not perfect by any means. But it's a start. The reason they exist is because the system FAVORS white people so much.

But here is the biggest irony of your post. You should be THANKFUL that these banks have opened their doors to people who don't historically belong there. Every bank could fill their entire class with privileged white kids from Ivy League schools or "friends" of the firm. You really think that there is a place for some kid from a state school with no connections who busted his ass to be the best? Yeah, maybe in middle or back office. Or do you actually think you are the exception? But I get it -- you just want to be racist. 

This guy fucks.

 
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am

This post is utterly disheartening. You make a tons of examples of personal with legitimate privilege, explaining what their privilege is, family ties, then conclude that the problem is their ethnicity and that collective ethnic discrimination is the solution. 

And this is the best post? This is the educated? Look at the mirror, your last line is for you. 

 

 
  • Intern in IB - Gen
Sep 20, 2020 - 10:43pm

Where do middle eastern & arab people fall in all of this? Everyone keeps saying White, Black, Asian, Hispanic. Are arabs viewed by default in one of these categories by banks or a separate diversity? I'm clueless about this 

 
Sep 20, 2020 - 10:56pm

That's the irony of diversity quotas. It doesn't make any sense.

You're a 2nd generation Ghanan American whose parents are both successful AF and your ancestors possibly were slave traders who sold weaker tribesmen to Europeans?  You're still Black so you deserve a spot!

You're a poor white kid from Appalachia and the first one to go to college in your entire family? Well you're still white so tough luck.

You're a Vietnamese American whose parents literally fled Communists. You grew up in a low income neighborhood and your parents work at a laundromat? Well your "people" seem to be successful so why aren't you? Tough luck "model minority" kid!

You're from the Middle East? But are you an Caucasian Arab? Persian? Or Black Arab? DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Lesser evil would be soci-economic status quotas, not racial quota. 

 
  • Intern in IB - Gen
Sep 21, 2020 - 12:03am

Ok I see. I don't have any political views or anything here just was genuinely curious to see if I qualified for anything lol. I honestly could easily pass as a south american if I really want but not really worth the risk in my view. If somewhere doesn't want me because of a physical look I can't control then oh well I guess

 
  • Associate 1 in IB - Ind
Sep 20, 2020 - 11:22pm

There are just as many people who get offers based on nepotism and family connections, and such practices have been around for ages, but there doesn't seem to be the same level of outrage directed towards them... wonder why...

Also diversity matters to clients as well. As a woman and a minority, I've personally experienced on 3 separate occasions that a client openly expressed appreciation towards me and others on my team because they're tired of being pitched to by troupes of white guys. It really is quite refreshing for clients who genuinely value that.

 
  • Analyst 2 in IB - Ind
Sep 21, 2020 - 12:27am

You're mad at the wrong people. The LONG history of white guys calling in favors for their sons / nephews / family friends that went unchecked for decades created an industry that, unsurprisingly, completely lacked diversity. There are definitely issues with diversity programs and they're not perfect, but it's laughable that rich white men created the problem in the first place but it's the "unqualified minorities" that get all the shit for it.

 
  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Sep 21, 2020 - 1:11am

It's a socioeconomic problem, not a race problem. That's why using race as a proxy is bullshit. Race is a good proxy, but it's not perfect. Those imperfections are exposed when a black multi-millionaire gets preference over an Asian immigrant. It's exposed when a rich white Argentinian descended from fleeing Nazis gets preference over a a white kid who came from nothing.

I think we can all agree that the current affirmative action system isn't fair. I think we can also all agree that without that system in place, it wouldn't be fair for disadvantaged applicants.

We need a better proxy to evaluate "privelage". Privelage is constructed from your parents education and your family's income. This dictates where you live which influences the quality of your education, whether you get hooked on drugs, whether you have to worry about being shot. It also straight up has to do with what you look like. I don't think anyone is comfortable talking about that part, but it's true. Do you "look" black or Hispanic or generally non-white? That has an impact on you too.

Ultimately, what would be the most "fair" is to have a panel of people interview you about your upbringing and your education, etc. and come up with a judgement. I think people would generally agree whether someone had a tough life and could use a hand or whether they were fine on their own and should have done better.

I don't think that level of discrimination is allowed under US law so therein lies the problem. 

 
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:27am

Considering there are plenty of white guys who claim to be "10% hispanic" I could probably easily take advantage of these diversity programs. I didn't use them because one day when I succeed or fail, I want to know that I succeeded because of my merits and not because of someone wanting to put my picture of their pamphlet for PR purposes.

So NO I wouldn't take advantage of them, and if I saw my African American / Hispanic peers getting shafted for a quota for Asian candidates I would stick up for them and speak to hiring managers about ending diversity recruiting.

 
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:27am

John.smihh1995

Considering there are plenty of white guys who claim to be "10% hispanic" I could probably easily take advantage of these diversity programs. I didn't use them because one day when I succeed or fail, I want to know that I succeeded because of my merits and not because of someone wanting to put my picture of their pamphlet for PR purposes.

So NO I wouldn't take advantage of them, and if I saw my African American / Hispanic peers getting shafted for a quota for Asian candidates I would stick up for them and speak to hiring managers about ending diversity recruiting.

But I thought you were "Asian?" 

Now you're indirectly saying you are a white guy? So you mean to tell me that you actually lied and were a white guy all along? Shocker. Some Asian dude on here mentioned white people like you love bringing in Asians to fit your narrative and he/she is absolutely right.

You just exposed yourself, scum.

 
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am

When did I say I was white? I am simply pointing out that many of the people who use these "diversity" programs such as SEO are literally just White people who claim to be 5% hispanic or Native American. If a white guy can take advantage of a diversity program, I'm sure someone who is Asian can do the same.

 

Don't worry what I do, focus on trying to make partner at a legit firm, I hear they don't have "diversity handouts" for those positions. 

 
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:27am

Alright dude, you had the room to make logical points against the system of diversity recruiting. But instead, you chose to bitch about it. It sucks to be on the losing end of the equation, I get it. But that does not qualify you to belittle others. Get over it or at least come up with viable solutions to makes this system more efficient. 

 
  • Analyst 1 in IB - Ind
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:27am

As a first generation white American, it's frustrating that it's assumed that I had it better than everyone and that I should be super successful because I'm white. I went to a non-target school and the top banks won't even look at my resume because I didn't attend HYP when applying for roles in a niche field that I'm qualified for given my current experience. Why did I go to the non-target? It had a good reputation in my state, was extremely affordable and with financial aid I was able to graduate practically debt free and be able to help out my parents. Was the quality of my education worse at the non-target? I highly doubt it. Finance is finance. My art teacher studied art for decades, my literature teacher was close to getting a phd, and frankly most of the curriculum is the same as most institutions.

 

I think you have a larger problem with elitism in this country (if you don't go to a top school you're considered less), and then there's an issue with race/gender. JPM will give little weight to the kid that went to Cuny Hunter, but if Cuny Hunter kid ends up being CEO of an equipment company, then they'll do whatever possible to be their underwriter/warehouse provider.

It's a hard problem to fix, and I think you can fix this issue with transparency. If you force firms to disclose how many people from each school were interviewed/how many applications were reviewed, you can at least put those firms under scrutiny for only looking at applications from a select number of schools.

Yes I'm triggered when an HR employee from Citi told people in my school that they don't recruit for front office roles at my school. Pretty insulting imo

 
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am

If you are Billy from a coal mining town in West Virginia you are getting screwed but most of the white/asian guys who make these kind of complaints are bourgeois as fuck and have had so many intangible advantages over a typical black/hispanic guy who probably didn't even know what an investment bank was until he was 20, yet they still have the gall to play the victim card when the bar is a bit higher come recruiting season. And no, you don't have to be a perfect student from the age of 14 to break into IB as a white guy, stop being so damn melodramatic. 

It's also always perplexed me how people who claim to be proponents of meritocracy can find diversity programs "maddening" and simultaneously not seem to give much of a shit about how easy blue bloods have it because they were born into the right family. You guys are directing your anger towards the wrong group of people and should be making all these whiny posts about kids of MDs rather than minorities.

 
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am

A lot of y'all don't realize that diversity programs don't just impact black / latinx folks (who generally do come from disadvantaged backgrounds). They also help:

Low income students

First generation students

Female students

LGBTQ students

Arab / Mena students (sometimes)

Active Military + Veteran students

Physically disabled students

Students with cognitive / mental disorders

And more...

I always find it fascinating how rarely people bring up these other groups. 

 

 

 

 
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am

No need to get mad about this post. Just further evidence of what all minorities know to be true when getting job placement in white collar professions. Many minorities don't want to work for people that started this post. You get in and then you have to deal with passive aggressive people that don't want there. So is it really win for the small percentage that get in? Never. For those us that have dealt with bigotry, racism, bias, and passive aggressive behavior in our climb just know your there to get the knowledge and money! Keep climbing!

 
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am

Everyone needs to stop pretending these diversity programs are actually focused on fixing inequality in any way. Doing so is honestly more harmful to black communities. 

If these programs did care, they'd look to target the actual drivers of systematic racism which are socioeconomic inequality and parental education and target students who are disadvantaged in these aspects. 

Most diversity candidates are 1st/2nd gen African immigrants or hispanics who don't deal with systematic racism and deal with the same injustices Asian Americans face. 

Diversity programs know this. They just don't care because it's a PR stunt. It's honestly more harmful to support diversity programs like this because they don't do anything to actually target black/indigenous communities that face systematic injustices day-in and day-out. People can just point to these diversity programs that have mainly been used by 1st/2nd gen African immigrants or hispanics (and not those dealing with actual systematic racism) and falsely say black/indigenous people who underperform aren't using resources given to them. 

 
  • Associate 2 in S&T - Comm
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am

There was a guy came from Congo who was brilliant and scrappy af. I knew I wanted this guy on my team and advocated hard for it, but instead HR forced a African American girl who wasn't a good fit and wasn't smart onto the group. That's why I hated diversity programs, it's just some bullshit stunt to make themselves look better/moreworldly.

Anyone, regardless of race or nationality, who has worked hard to dig themselves out of poverty and focus on self improvement has my respect and I will do my best to advocate for them. It's even more personal for me since I was once in their spot. I don't need fucking "liberals" or "conservatives" giving me bullshit narratives to jerk themselves off on the internet.

I felt bad for my candidate and hooked him up with another group via my network. The American girl burned out in 9 months and everyone hated her attitude. 

In general, I look at experience/education/skills before meeting the candidate. I care dick about race/gender, only ability/personality/grit.

If all the fucking white people want to take over discussions on diversity programs to make themselves look more worldly, go fuck yourself. 

on AA: there can be a way to help Black people w/o harming other groups. jfc

 

 
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am

LOL cry me a river. Work harder or find a different field of work. It's ok that you didn't make it into the ~80%+ of seats in this industry that are filled by white people, just accept it and move on. Bitching about the less than ~10% reserved for minorities isn't gonna help you bud. 

 
  • Analyst 2 in IB-M&A
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am

Which group of people is considered more diverse?

A group of Americans of different races or a group of white people from different European countries?

 
  • Intern in PropTrad
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am

I'm not sure what all these every-other-day rants about diversity/AA solve tbh?

You are inciting & normalising racial hatred every time you make these posts, that specifically  target one racial group & always emanate from another particular racial group.  

Is it not better you all just  take it up directly with your parents for being poor   or the wrong race or the wrong culture   or dumb or non target or whatever the complaint is this week?  You're not getting the position because you are dumb and cannot comprehend & come to terms with simple concepts.how many fo-cking times do you have to be told, socio-economic is not a protected characteristic, it does not class as discrimination. your 'revolutionary' proposals to benefit you do not fo-cking conform to the diversity/ AA raison d'etre. Even if they end diversity/AA you still won't get the position cos you are dumb and have a massive chip on your shoulder and no one wants that energy around.  There is literally nothing anyone on this site can do to help you guys.

 

 

 
  • Intern in IB-M&A
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am

As a diverse intern myself, here's how I see it.  Now as a black student in finance, I also know that there is also some sort of stigma around my presence.  That I am only here because of the diversity program, as if I don't check off all of their subjective boxes and qualifications.  Increased representation makes this better - my experience on a desk with no diversity was COMPLETELY different from my experience on my current desk.  This is a positive outcome.

One criticism goes that diversity pipelines both elevate unworthy/unqualified candidates an opportunity.  This can make logical sense, the diversity route is easier to get through, sure.  But the other criticism holds that these programs disproportionally benefit Rich Black students who went to private schools like Exeter and Yale.

How can it be both ways?  What is your definition of (un)qualified?  Surely it can't be in the caliber of their background - my friends who went through this come from some of the best schools and have great grades.

I think the argument that diversity pipelines elevate "unqualified" candidates at the expense of "qualified" candidates on the sole basis of race is, mostly, a misrepresentation of what's going on.  These programs were designed to keep Wall Street as a place that selects for background while still incorporating diversity.  Of course this fucks over non-diversity at your random state schools, but the hard truth is that this isn't the background banks seek regardless of race.  

As a whole I think the biggest myth is that Wall Street is somehow a meritocracy, which is why you get people that get mad at "diversity programs" that largely work as designed regardless of how we feel about it. 

Ultimately, the industry was never designed for the guy from Southern Idaho State, and diversity programs are not taking away the opportunities of these folks as this opportunity never existed.  I do think there is a reallocation of opportunities between rich/well-connected students, but to say that these opportunities are being "revoked" from qualified White and Asian students ignores the still-overwhelming proportion of opportunities available to them.  It also implies that these students are/should be entitled to these positions (like entry-level banking jobs "belong" to white and asian students) which is the exact mindset that these programs serve to end.

In short, you're wrong 

 
  • Associate 2 in S&T - Comm
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am
  1. Sorry to hear about other perceptions of you, but a lot of places ARE meritocracies, as long as you have the skills, you can demonstrate your skillset and show your real abilities
    1. Personally I treat every candidate the same way until they show they are good or trash. I have seen both good and bad candidates from diversity pools, but I find HR's pool is usually 75% bad, 25% good. 
  2. I don't think increased representation works if they are all trash candidates. Assuming you're not an idiot and we clone 10x of you, sure that works, but that's not realistic
  3. Nobody thinks finance job "belong" to one single group, you don't know what you are talking about. I hate the rich family connections as much as everyone else. The job is all about the abilities of the candidate and ability to add value to the team.  Just because a white person's dad has connections doesn't mean the candidate can do the job, which I hate.

My biggest issue with diversity:

  1. White liberals claiming to be all about diversity while being rich and affluent enough to not give a shit, more so just to fan their righteousness and image. As Malcolm X said, the white liberal is the most dangerous group to POC.
  2. People using diversity/BLM as a way of being more racist to other groups. (See Steven Jackson/Ice Cube about Jews and attacks on Asians during COVID). It makes no fucking sense to preach about social justice while spewing hatred at another group. It makes me mad af that idiots like these are being celebrated. 
  3. If two candidates are evenly matched, you won't be promoted purely due to race/gender. Which goes back to the qualifying point. What makes this even more complicated is the fact that you need something to lose to experience this.
    1. Take yourself as an example, a black person vs a multiracial transgender gay candidate both competing to get a promotion that can pay for your kid's college. If the board decides to be more LGBT friendly, how would you feel if your hard work to help your family succeed were thrown out simply because of gender/sex/race of the other person? If you are a first gen from a poor background, you would feel that your hard work and your parents' struggles doesn't mean anything next to some random person's biological attributes. 

 

 

 
  • NA in VC
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am

Effort surely goes a long way at a junior level, but as you get beyond the analyst or associate ranks, you'll soon start appreciating that merit in its strictest, hard work sense has little to do with upward progression. The reason why Idaho State hires are rare is because for the most part they just don't bring the connections that HYPS student comes with. At analyst level this is not obvious because performance depends on attention to detail, hours spent, modelling skills etc. but at MD level it is everything that matters. I'd argue that it serves the banks to bring in a diverse set of network that has access to potential clients. As corporations get more diverse and there are more women/minority business owners, I think it's wise for banks to have their talent to reflect that change as well.

 
  • Intern in IB-M&A
Sep 21, 2020 - 7:28am

Thanks for your reply. I completely understand that people these days use social issues to incite hate towards others these days.

But to your point about the hypothetical me vs the white gay person... it is just that: hypothetical.  I think a major issue with diversity conversations is that we talk ourselves into hypotheticals when, at least I'm 99.999% confident, there is no recruiter or board member sitting there contemplating whether to favor me or some other minority. This conversation becomes toxic because we all of a sudden are in competition when that's not how jobs or internships are handed out! 

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