There was definitely some historically bad aspects of Wall Street culture (particularly mistreating women etc). That said, find it incredibly sad how Wall Street / IB culture seems to be nowadays. It’s like pulling teeth sometimes trying to get juniors to go out during the week. This can be something as simple as going for a drink... let alone properly partying, consuming anything stronger, strip clubs, etc.
Wall Street seems to be filled with a bunch of nerds who can crush technicals but have no EQ and who have killed the “play hard” hard part of “work hard play hard”
I can feel the MS coming. And I’m not saying this should be forced on anyone. But kinda sad to see how neutered the industry culture is
Workload. Hard to go out when you are constantly pulling 90+ week
Fair but I can’t imagine old school bankers were chilling at 40 hour work weeks either
No, but over-competition has heightened hours for juniors. Analysts and associates are being pushed toward physical limit, which is not the case back in time.
It wasn't a 40 hour a week job back then either, but there was a lot less taxing bitch work. It still had longer hours, but the schedule was more predictable.
Tldr is this is a matured industry. What finance was in the 80's is what Tech was in the 2010's and will be what whatever else is the next big wave in 10-20 years. Shit ton of regulation pretty turned it in to what it is today and to the majority outside of finance its for the better. The market is fully saturated, meaning there is no more outsized growth to rely on and the industry is mostly finite and realized, meaning there is downwards pressure on fees and economics to win market share and upwards pressure on value extraction out of employees and additional pressures from thousands of new entrants in the junior level willing to pick up those spots. If you want a "deal" job (outsized pay/perks/WLB relative to hours worked) look for something hidden maybe just hitting the limelight because the money in finance has been known for 6+ decades now and the market has been fully corrected to the maximum value extraction they can get out of an individual, not a minute less. And the minimum they need to pay to retain talent and not a penny more.
Unfortunately I think it’s also some of the stuff you see about younger generations drinking lesss etc. Im not sure if you find the culture elsewhere or if it’s just diminished in general …
Could be younger culture in general. A lot of Gen Z is socially stunted due to COVID + phone addiction. Shit I'm a zillenial and I'm easily addicted to Reddit, Insta, YouTube, and Pinterest. More people tend to stay online and the don't have a third space to go to where they can learn how to be social and part of a community.
Completely agree. Would also add that look at the hiring standards today vs 20 years ago.
The average hire is a fucking alien. No kidding they won’t go out for beers. As well, the focus on modelling and decks for the sake of doing more work continues the cycle and then some as these juniors become more senior.
Asians
Yep. The notorious "fratty" groups of wallstreet all have one thing in common
HR has taken over the country.
Wall Street got lots of criticism during the GFC for its "party hard" culture, so for reputational reasons banks made sure to cut lots of their entertainment expenses (including where is appropriate to have business meetings with clients). Seniors also made sure to follow the rules and not encourage degenerate entertainment. Give it 10-15 years, and now we only the "work hard" without the "party hard".
Also nerds, but this is a consequence of encouraging meritocracy.
Can add anecdotally when I was at Moelis in the 2010s (a UBS spin off from the GFC effectively), I would regularly hear people mention how great the 2007 UBS holiday party was and that no party ever has or will again reach that height of spending and debauchery
Obviously meritocracy is good but people ignore the EQ aspect of hiring nowadays when thinking about “meritocracy” and it leads to hiring a bunch of kids who memorize IB technicals and have zero social skills
Plenty of ex college athletes/ healthy types just don't drink anymore
I get that but if you're a fun and interesting person you would still create at least a semblance of a fun or interesting culture at work, regardless of alcohol or drug use.
Of course. We all like great hangs
Sooo good looking nerds ?
Do you think everyone that doesn't drink is a nerd?
Gen Z is the absolute worst
Lol, ngl the Gen Zs not drinking (coworkers and younger relatives of mine) is why I've become sober curious. For the most part, I admire how healthy they live life.
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As a Gen Z’er I feel confident it has much more to do with what this generation has become than anything to do with HR/other factors comments are mentioning. Kids today are simply lame as fuck. Every year in college I see a larger and larger share of a given class be completely sober. Shit’s sad
It's due to loneliness caused by COVID lockdowns and the internet.
Wall Street killed itself
Combination of maturing industry and Gen Z being lame.
Think part of this has to do with recruitment timeline coming up so early. Fewer and fewer personality hires / “grab a beer after work?” guys being hired because banks are recruiting applicants that have wanted to do IB since birth and are technical sweats. Good for the output of the firm but makes most banks full of bots who don’t know how to socialize.
Mediocre white women whom white men gave a front row seat on the DEI gravy train. There you go I fixed it for you. You do realize that 50% of seats in hiring and promotions are undeservingly earmarked for women and majority go to white women, often liberal, unhinged and will never be held accountable. That’s the biggest change. There is a Lindsay Clancy in each of your social circles …karma!
Started at CS and we would go out almost every Thursday until 4-5am and show up to the office 5 hours later while still working +80h per week. Had all kinds of toys in the office, remote-controlled cars, etc. These were good times.
Now at an American BB and there is no fun anymore. There are monthly team drinks/dinner, which get cancelled half of the time because no one shows up but when it does happen, the conversation is only around work and Excel shortcuts. Then people leave after 1h. On top of that, ski trips and summer trips have been recently forbidden by compliance and HR.
It's depressing.
Started at CS also. RIP. Ignore rank in bio. What a great firm. The right combination of European common sense with work life balance but also with American execution and hustle. I really enjoyed pretty much everyone I worked with there.
Also started at CS. Most aggressive bank in Europe relative to its peers. Loved the culture.
good lord these “why aren’t analysts fratty” posts are so fucking annoying LOL. nobody wants to “get fukkkked up” with their annoying fat MBA associate who turned what could have been a 70 hour week into a 90+ hour week because they kept misinterpreting MD comments and “adding value” by creating new pages that were immediately killed by the VP. It’s not just that ppl are “lame” or hate drinking in general, it’s that they have much more desirable things to do with their very limited amount of free time than to turn what could have been an 11pm night into a 2am night because someone wanted to pressure all the analysts to get tipsy and become way less efficient as a result or go to a shitty overcrowded Midtown bar with the same autistic co-workers that they already spend 14+ hours with every day. ppl want to spend time with their gf, go to the gym, hang out with friends who aren’t their co-workers and are actually likeable, etc. Go find other friends outside of work and leave us tf alone plz
Will give you the benefit of the doubt since you’re clearly venting but there so many strawman arguments here and I think youre who the post is addressing.
Obviously no one is saying u have to go out with your superiors if they make your life miserable or you hate them. The point is addressing the missing wall st culture where going out with your coworkers allowed it to feel like it was one big team - even if there were levels in the rankings. That’s how bonds are formed by being in the trenches together and then blowing off steam together. Part of this was also killed by the WFH nature of the job post Covid
Also it’s obviously good to have friends outside of work and not saying hang out with work people on weekends but more so the old work culture of turning it up every once in a while during the week and if u can’t handle a few hours of going out during the week every once in a while because you want to go home to “go gym” or “see your gf” every time the boys are trying to party then that’s prob why people get frustrated and ostracized if they feel you’re not on the same wavelength
Wall Street culture isn’t (or at least wasn’t) meant to be one of balance and wholesomeness - it’s one of extremes and in order to enjoy that you need people on board in numbers
There was an exclusive social merit to being in wall street and hanging out in certain social settings that were considered elitist back in the day. Today it's completely different. Social media just changed everything, that's it imo. The "fratty" culture shifted somewhere else.
It's not about having friends outside of work, it's that being with those friends can now carry a lot of prestige and better vibe. The best bars, restaurants, cafes, etc in my area cater to influencers and micro-famous people. Being a banker or a tech founder stopped being cool around here.
In colloquial terms, bankers have been brutally mogged out of social elitism.
100% agree. I don't like HR but I'm also not a degenerate either. Maybe we do have something in common with the DEI libs
This is the culture you create when you commoditize recruiting. Everyone goes through the same finance clubs, same interview questions, has the same answers thanks to the same guides. Every firm wants the same high horsepower, head down, does not rock the boat candidate.
I don't even blame the kids, we set the expectations and start picking them out of school earlier and earlier.
Hire for EQ / personality with a strong desire to learn and technicals as a checkmark. Half the technical shit we ask an A1 isn't going to be doing anyway. None of what we do is rocket science.
Ross Johnson, Michael Milken, and Don Engel would not accept the 2020s
I’ve been disappointed since starting in IB, everyone is walking on eggshells all the time. One associate felt like he had to pull me to the side to say he wanted to go out and get beers, as he knew I was state school/frat
it’s the women.
All real business is done through social ritual, not by analysis or presentation or better work, and whether Gen Z likes it or not, social ritual in the Western World and even more so in Asia is done eating and boozing excessively with a bit of golf. Sure you don’t have to drink, but you have to hang out with people who do and not be a pill. What better time to learn social ritual than as an analyst. That’s the main benefit of being an analyst.
If banks didn't recruit autists with +3.9 GPAs, they might attract more well-rounded people who value social interaction and excel at relationship-building, which might make them great relationship builders/help bring clients once they are more senior. After all, it is much harder to teach a people-oriented skills to a nerd than it is to teach to an already social person how to change a color or drag a formula across a spreadsheet.
But hey! just saying Mr. MD (because of course there is not much you could do to change that at your seniority)
Gen Z can't even hold a conversation for more than 10sec if at all. They're glued to their screens. And a bunch of them now just don't drink. We could likely tie all this back to the existential crisis society is entering but...the easy thing is to just chalk it up to them being introverted nerds. That and everyone switching to cannabis once we realized its actually healthier than drinking.
Just a consequence of a highly regulated industry. Finance is very cut and dry. There isn't any innovation. The main money making businesses have been gutted post GFC and heavy regulation. So there is less "play hard" budget to go around. In the 1980s, finance was deregulated af, and it wasn't standardized on how to recruit or break in. You just had to know someone and get lucky or be at the right place right time like Lewis Ranieri. On top of that, it was less tech heavy and more face to face heavy where your personality and confidence got you ahead, not necessarily your technical acumen.
I'd also wager that there is a general fear of being caught doing something that would get you in trouble, despite the fact that in any other industry it would get laughed off or you'd get a slap on the wrist. Context matters. I.e. stuff you'd say on an oil rig or with 2 fratty tech sales bros in a bar on the road at some conference would be heavily scrutinized and punished in environments such as banking, law, and consulting. Part of that is because it attracts people who are risk averse and perfectionist, the other is because the industry as a whole has been so heavily scrutinized. Consequences of work cultures that require you to be "polished".
I think Hollywood is another great example, I was just in LA and saw none of the debauchery that previously was reported on. The entertainment industry (while still not clean, just like finance and law for example) has gone under tremendous clean up post #metoo.
I think big tech is also the same. But tbf, tech has always been filled with very introverted and quiet nerds. And most sales professionals you meet in tech tend to have some solid ethics. Degenerates don't last and they get washed out very quickly.
And finally, society as a whole has moved on from debauchery and fratty behavior. What used to be broadly classified as boys will be boys has been justifiably and rightfully condemned as not okay. Granted to your point, going out for dinners and drinks is not debauchery, but going out to a strip club or whore house? It's like why? Some men still want to do it and do it. But overall, it's been on a downward trend and people want to be with their families and at home rather than some night club at 2 in the morning with work starting at 6 the next day.
eh
well it's natural because this sort of partying is not relevant to the goal of achieving the goal of the client or generating money/dealflow
it’s the that’s most relevant to the client and generating money in most cases
deals are still sealed over whiskey and cigars
In 10 years it'll be generated through an early morning cold plunge and kombucha after. Namaste.
Should’ve told my bank to give me a return this summer (did bag on the desk)
BTW all this stuff goes on. It’s just quieter and unless you’re in the circle of trust you just won’t know about it.
Well ya there will always be people who drink, go to strip clubs, so drugs, etc. it’s moreso a comment on the broader culture and its acceptance
How does one enter this circle of trust? Are there signals that someone can give that go under the radar broadly but will get picked up by the right people?
I’m a junior and I agree. Since I joined, I tried to rally people to go out when we had the chance, tried to be friendly with my colleagues so that we talk about something other than value creation in our spare time - nobody wants it. Even if you do force them to go out, they are either extremely guarded (always checking their phone, still talking to you mostly about work) or they get absolutely wasted - and I don’t mean fun wasted, like they don’t talk anymore / pass out. I only know a couple out of a hundred juniors who are actually normal and fun in this area - they are never international and never “top performers”. These kind of people are the ones that are most likely to not be promoted / get mid-bad reviews
You totally get socially punished / looked at weird when you offer “playing hard” or just “playing” in this industry these days
People are so dumb to throw the Gen Zs under the bus for this. I'm not even sure which generation I am in this stupid naming conventions (born mid 1990s) but def. grew up in a time where it was much more common to screw around and drink oneselfs into coma from the age of 16 (European perspective).
Just look at most professional services firms (be it banking, law, consulting) if your hypothesis is that the Gen Zs brought the boring culture then take a good look at your current MDs and Partners. Those have likely started ~2010ish or the more senior even much earlier.
Do you see a lot charismatic, larger than life type of schmoozers/characters? Or do you see a bunch of career and work obsessed cookie cutters, who largely live a comfortable but much more upper-middle-class type of life with their wifes and kids rather than what we have in mind of a "finance-baller". There is no work hard play hard culture even at the top. Those dweebs dial in to meaningless pitches while on family vacation just to make sure to receive additional browny points in front of senior leaderships. Its like the nerds took over long ago.
Goddamm, I have seen so much nerdy senior partners, MDs, etc. who make millions but at a client dinner got nervous when champagne was ordered as they weren't really sure if they could expense it. Remind you those were people on MILLIONS of yearly income afraid that if the ~500€ spend on champagne is not expensable and they need to pay it themselves in the worst case. I know a large-cap PE partner who made it to the top ranks INSANELY fast at 35. He has three kids, is balding, has an increasingly larger belly every year, and spends EVERY WEEKEND at the goddamm office. I have never seen that guy party or doing something fun once. I kid you not on top of that he is even frugal, so he bought a house in one of the less nicer suburbs and also does not drive a really good car or anything. I mean I applaude the non-materialism, I also think the overconsumerism does not lead to anything, but what a sad freaking life.
Its a mix of all sort of phenomena coming together, i.e., industry maturization, smartphones & digital traces making any sort of out of the norm behavior traceable, rise of zoom & work around the clock mentality, asset price inflation and real comp decrease as well as greater importance on healthier lifestyles.
My man has correctly identified that Gen X is the enemy.
I never minded Millennial cringe. To me, it always felt Rubenesque
Do you have any thoughts on where the old guys went? Did they age out of the industry or the lifestyle, or did they die off or get ejected from the industry? If it is that pervasive, where have those guys in the industry ended up when the culture shifted?
"I'm not even sure which generation I am in this stupid naming convention (born mid 1990s)"
Later Millennial, FYI
With the rise of AI, I do think that people that have charisma, are charming, and have the ability to hold a conversation with a client will be the big winners over the nerdy and no life type of banker
Let’s hope that’s true
I think it’s really just that the top banks are so competitive that the opportunity cost of being seen in any form of risky behavior is too high, leading to a sterile culture. It’s the double edged sword of meritocracy, you get people that have centered their whole lives from senior year of high school to getting an offer. Those people are going to be far too risk averse to stay out until 4am on a Thursday
However this definitely does go on at smaller firms / other pockets of finance
^^ it is this. I like going out, I don’t trust any of the Machiavellian people I work with.
combination of nerds hiring more nerds + jr banker time constraints / unrealistic deadlines.
As mentioned, this stuff still happens but you need to be in the circle. plenty of finance guys hitting the handicap stall on a thursday night before their 8 am call Friday morning
A lot of things are like this. Look at F1 or tennis, for example, where you used to have colorful characters - for better or for worse. Now, everyone is the same drab personality. Part of this is because it's now not "optimal" to be a party animal or whatever. You know the types who operate on instinct and not a calculation... In the past, people seemed to rise through the ranks more so on talent. It seems that now it's talent plus the optimization which doesn't appear to create very 'fun' people.
The last bastion of this type in F1 would be Kimi Raikkonen (who has been retired for a while now). It's night and day to see how he approaches his career compared to the younger generation (and even those whom he raced against originally).
Okay boomer.
Boomer because I want people le to have fun and not be lame? I’ll take it.
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feel free the blame the gen z but it is really all the seniors who are lame as fuck let’s be real - all flows from the top with these dweeby fat MDs - who are also feeling revenue pressure, cost of living pressure etc
If you're looking for degenerates, head to crypto.
Bro must have been in the PWP RX bullpen
I drink like a mf hire me
The very simple and almost entire answer is that Wall Street doesn’t pay young people what they used to. Although I do agree with some of the matured industry comments, I can guarantee you that the boomers got a much larger slice than they are currently giving to the younger generations.
Most of the firms out there could afford to pay juniors much more than they do. Hogs choked out the victory culture.
Idk man. I overspend and manage my money poorly and even I know that as a single young lad if you can’t manage to go out and party hard on six figures then that’s on you
You didn’t address my point at all. Inflation adjusted analysts make similar to what they did in the 90’s but inflation massively understates items like Manhattan rent (or rent in any urban center for that matter).
Do you think if you gave entry level analysts $300k (either by paying them more or decreasing their costs to achieve that purchasing power equivalent) they would party more or less?
People respond to their environment and things look bleak from a young persons perspective.
Maybe I’m the problem but If I made 80k I would be just as much as a degenerate as if I made 200k … just lower quality vices
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