European Languages
I am finding that a lot of IBD roles ask for fluent English and a European language is highly desirable (when applying to London or a European location).
I am thinking of buying Rosetta Stone (Spanish) and self teaching myself. Once I know the basics, I have some friends who speak Spanish and can practice with them.
Is it more important to know how to speak it fluently and understand it if someone is speaking the language - or is the reading/writing important too? (for the role)
Is it worth learning - at least to a basic level?
Thanks everyone.
Basic level is not desirable.
You should pick some language (in my opinion Spansih is not a great choice) and learn it to at least a fluent level before you even mention it somewhere. In my opinion, more attractive languages are German and Russian, and languages with some interesting potential are Greek, Arabic and Serbo-Croatian.
But still, lets say that a bank needs someone who speeks German because of some client - they wont send someone who learned German on the corsues or semester abroad, they will send a native speaker or someone who has lived/studied in Germany/Austria/Switzerland for at least couple of years and knows the language extremely well.
Fluent as in spoken and understood when someone speaks it? Is it okay if you can't write/read it?
Got it on the sending abroad thing. Its just that languages seem to form a barrier of entry for me - I only know English. Thats why Im trying to do something to break this wall. If I need to be fluent then I may as well think of a new career right? (because 99% of people I know in IBD know English + a European Language)
Start investing your time in the 2nd language.
Once you have a basic/intermediate level, you can write it down on your resume, but at your own risk. Banks sometimes conduct inteviews in 2 languages, or (what happened to me) send employees that are native speakers of the languages that I have listed on my CV to hang out with me.
Imagine that they assigned you some client, and you had to speak to that client only on Spanish. Frist problems would arise if you dont understand stuff that he is talking about in detail. It looks unprofessional. Also, imagine that this client sends you an email or sms that you need to answer really fast - what would you do about that? In addition, if the client presented you some documents in Spanish to analyze or something... it would be a mess.
Of all European languages, why would you study Spanish? Pick German.
Agree, Spanish is a weak choice.
and btw, don't waste your time on some language manuals. My advice is to pay a good conversational course and (crucial part) spend lots of time in the country where that language is spoken.
For example, even if you had a C1 level from some German course, you would have a really hard time to follow lectures on the university. You would need at least a couple of months to get used to it. And in the professional world, you dont want your clients telling your boss that you suck at the language and that he should send someone else instead.
AGREED. I came to Germany in Sept at about B1 or perhaps B2. I took 25 credits in German. I speak German very well now (close to fluent, not 100% though), but those grades, well - let's just say I'm glad that I get to pick and choose what credits go back to my home Uni and on my transcript.
To restate: that was the single most difficult time of my life. It was complete immersion. I spoke English with NO ONE. I didn't speak German well enough to follow lectures, to read faster than a six-year-old, to make friends easily and converse ... it was horrible. Honestly the most difficult time of my life.
So what does that mean? You're gonna come off like a damn fool in business if you can't even crack a joke to a friend in the foreign language. You won't understand anything, you'll feel retarded, and you'll want to quit.
So learn the language WAAAYYY before trying to work with that language. I am looking for work now in a German speaking company (UBS/CS Zürich) ... after a year of total immersion studying economics after two years in college and three years in high school.
Learn the language, by all means, but don't make a fool of yourself. If you really want to learn a language well enough to list it on a resume, you've not only got to be able to dream in the language, you've got to read it as fast as your native language, you've got to be able to understand words based on construction / form, you've got to have the grammar down perfectly or close to it, you've got to have immaculate spelling, you've got to be able to appreciate the nuances of the poetry of the language ...
I never thought it would be as difficult as it was, but diving into Germany has KICKED MY ASS. I've finally stood up on my feet now, but it's been nine months in instead of the one or two that I expected.
So go find a job in the country whose language you want to learn, where the workplace is English only, and spend all your offtime speaking, reading, learning.
That's my advice. I'm still a college student, last year, so don't think I'm some big wig. But I know learning languages (Spanish and French conversationally as well).
uhm just ignore everyone in this thread, they have no clue what they are talking about.
1) Additional languages for banking are useless unless you are fully fluent in them, both spoken and in writing. You need to be able to read financial statements in the language and write slides in that language. and it needs to be perfect.
2) People in this thread telling you to learn german are nuts, there are tons of germans that are fluent in german and english and in banking already.
3) If you want to learn a language for banking, I suggest you choose some dodgy eastern european one as generally there will be a whole lot less qualified people from that country within finance already, adn those markets are actually growing quickly.
Overall I suggest tough you do not waste your time on an additional language, unless you pick up languages very quickly, as discussed in point 1 you will need fluency in both reading and writing.
wtf is up with the learn german advice, are you guys fo real?
WTF is your problem with the reading ability and ignorance? Read again what I just wrote, you just repeated everything in your post. And German was just an example, learn to read.
And visit application page of major banks, you will see that they have German as a huge advantage in 90% of the cases - so it is still needed. Why? Because German people suck at English 50% of the time. Ofc, as I mentioned, fluency is a minimum requirement.
there is zero shortage of german speakers for investment banks, not to mention that all major banks have frankfurt offices and most german speaking business is done through those offices anyway (varies by bank)...
Interesting. Well I'm unlikely to get fluent in a language in a couple of months so should I look at alternative career plans? How do Asians, Indians, British people etc ever get in then if a European language is a requirement?
Asians and Indians speak their native languages?
British people learn some other European language?
Speaking a foreign language is not really an advantage most of the time. But it definitely makes your application much stronger when you have couple of languages under your belt. It can be very useful sometimes but it is surely not a must.
Asians/Indians - but they don't know a European language (thats what I meant)
British studies tend to make you study another language up to a basic level. But most people then leave it.
I have always been sceptical of learning a language for work. My experience is that foreigners usually speak English far better than English speakers who have learnt their language are able to speak it. Take German for example, anyone who has visited Germany would know that a large number of young Germans speak exceptionally good English based on years and years of study throughout school, and most Germans speak english to some level (see http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,410295,00.html).
The chances of you spending even a few years and being anywhere near as good are low. By all means learn a language if it is something you want to do, but I don't think it is worth the effort purely from an employment perspective. When jobs in London advertise for German/Spanish speakers, I think they are targeting Germans at university in the UK, not english/american grads that have done a couple of levels of Rosetta stone.
Fair enough. Guess I will look at alternatives to be competitive :)
Europe:
Language | Purpose English/German: business French: politics Spanish/Italian: women
for consulting thatd be understandable because consulting in the uk pays minimum wage compared to germany, so no1 in their right mind would do it in the uk and just stay in germany, for UK banking i still highly doubt that shortage, can't comment on CEE
@OP Learning something new (ie language, skill, cooking, ..) is certainly positive. However learning a language for the job has to be in relation to how you and the company would like to use that in a specific environment. I have worked in more than six countries in the last decade and within Finance English has always been the lingua franca, almost regardless of the country I was in. (I was in meetings in Germany, Switzerland and Sweden were the entire session was conducted in English.)
It also depends on how quickly you could pick up a new language.
Comment on the last point made: Yes, there seems to be a surge for German-speaking professionals within consulting and/or Finance related positions in Germany in the last weeks. Couple of colleagues and I were approached by headhunters.
Funnily enough - this is what I was thinking. Nearly the whole world speaks English so the emphasis on a European language confuses me :S Maybe its a culture thing?
yeah to some extent it is a culture thing, a swede will get along best with a swedish client, a german with a german one.
also alot of local private company filings tend to be in local languages so there it definetly helps.
And altough at c-level everyone speaks english, if you have to interact with people below that local langauge helps as well.
just learn English... i hear it's pretty similar to American.
Most foreigners have been learning English since they were in kindergarten. Don't waste your time, just count yourself lucky that you are fluent in the (soon to be) world language.
I have taken Russian for several years and a year or so at the university level. Even now I wouldn't dare put it on my resume.
"No, no, Marvin. Speak in God's language--English."
If you have free time, do it. It will probably help you in an interview someday a little bit. Key point that the benefit is going to be pretty marginal and the time spent is pretty substantial. But if you have other motives, such as living abroad, etc... then go for it. If you do choose, learn a Romance language because learning multiple ones is a lot easier. And no one can argue that if you resume lists five languages you are at least interesting.
Agree. If you want to learn a foreign language, do it for your own edification and for a larger purpose (i.e. travelling or living abroad; special connection -e.g. foreign partner; cultural interest -e.g reading books/watching films in original version, etc.). Chances are that combining a personal interest with your job motivation will lead to better results, or else, at least cultivate yourself into a more complete character so it wasn't "wasted time" or a huge frustration.
From my own experience, I agree that high proficiency needs to be achieved if you really want to play this card for work at a competitive level (banking, consulting). You'll most certainly be interviewed in those languages (at least in those target for the job), which only the beginning. On the job you need to be almost as good as native speakers (if you get to use this as a leverage in your career). Participating in meetings, presenting, reading through documents (financial and legal), and explaining concepts in a foreign language to foreign native speakers are part of the requirement. Although, they'll understand that you are a foreigner (and perhaps give you a small benefit in terms of minor mistakes), rest assure that they expect a very high level (from your company, for sending you to meet them, hence indirectly from you).
I can only encourage you to learn languages, make your choice one based on multifactors as mentioned afore. Try to live on the country, this will help you on the language side and to enjoy the culture and understand its people. You'll find that languages are a delight, a huge intellectual booster and not only a barrier.
I'm an American whose family came to America from England in 1639. Like most heterosexual Americans I'm extremely xenophobic, particularly against Europeans who have basically culturally devolved into a detestable, effeminate, pussy entitlement society. That said, my goal for my children is to see them speak 2 Western European languages fluently and read an ancient language--ancient Greek, Latin, Hebrew, etc.--fluently. While modern Europe is a repugnant socialist society that is collapsing under the weight of its greed and laziness, European history and culture are something to be cherished, and those languages--German, Latin, Greek, etc.--are the basis for the final great language--English--which is really just a mutt language of German grammar and Greek and Latin vocabulary.
Unlike the Cylones, I can at least appreciate my proverbial parents.
Go Amurica!
Do you really think that the average Italian, Greek, German or English man is more effeminate than their American counter parts? I don't see it... They seem a lot more macho and less boyish in general (I'm talking about men in their mid 20s / early 30s).
Anyway, back on topic, I think it is really limiting to only know one language. It's like being able to "think" in only one culture. Apart from being ethnocentric, you won't be able to see your own culture from the outside / from a critical perspective which in my opinion limits the human experience. In a way your mind is trapped and even if you realise this you don't have the tools to go beyond these boundaries.
Go ahead. Pick a language / culture you find interesting and learn the language and live in a country that speaks it. It might help you career, or it might not. It definitely won't hurt and there is more to life then being part of the production process.
Please tell me this is a joke, you are admitting to being fearful of/hate anything foreign?
What, and then you want us to take your 'observations' regards foreigners, who you have just admitted to fearing and hating (irrationally depending on your definition of xenophobia) seriously...
"I am a racist, now please take seriously my observations regarding Nigerians"
You caught me. I'm racist against my own blood. My Gawd Europeans are brilliant!
I would strongly recommend the following in order of importance - Chinese, Russian, and German.
All germans speak english, no Chinese will do business with you. Idk about russian
Have been meesing around with French for years...my advice, dont waste your time.
If your not fluent its as useless as tits on a wild boar hog. Only way to get fluent is to spend an extended amount of time living and working in the foreign country.
Its a shame because as you say in London it seems like every job has European langauge preferred. I have resigned myself to never being fluent (unless I make millions, retire and go to live in France :).
I work in a country other than the UK and my last MD couldn't speak anything but English. Better use the time perfecting your Oxford English accent, if you want to impress the clients in my opinion (many of which are US or UK educated, anyway). Depends on the field of course, in my case it's Fin Sponsors.
Having used Rosetta Stone, I can say it's definitely a good (albeit expensive) program. I would try to find a version on torrent. Be prepared to dedicated at least an hour every night too. Another service that helped was livemocha.com, or basically any social language learning website. You should easily be able to find some friends (read: hot girls) to be your penpal from this site. This way you can learn how people actually speak in the other language. I spent a year doing this with Brazilian Portuguese and was able to hold my own for a 2 week solo trip. This approach works best with reading/writing, so I'd definitely pick up a conversational course too.
Oh, and if you're thinking of learning Spanish, be sure to know the difference between Latin American and Continental...people in Spain really look down on Latin American Spanish.
If you want to learn a European language, learn French. While almost everyone in western Europe speaks English, the French prefer to do business in French and really appreciate it if someone goes to the trouble to learn it. But be sure to be fluent, otherwise its a waste if time.
If you want to learn a European language, learn French. While almost everyone in western Europe speaks English, the French prefer to do business in French and really appreciate it if someone goes to the trouble to learn it. But be sure to be fluent, otherwise its a waste if time.
Rosetta Stone works, torrent ftw.
If Greece gets out of the financial trouble it currently is and you're located in Europe (London basically..); do learn Greek.
Do you find learning additional languages is easier after you know 3+?
i found learning anything in my life easier after knowing 3+ languages... the perspective on the things is invaluable it is a huge advantage, regardless of the work/career
definitely go for as much languages as you can learn; push them until you have some solid grammar and can talk in that language - from there an opportunity to spend some time in a country where that language is spoken might arise or you may meet some native speakers
my optimal advice would be to enroll a course which you would have 2 times a week for 2 semesters (one year). one year length is essential, because you will forget stuff if you dont refresh your memory about that language during at least one year period that is between 3 and 4 hours a week = 150-200 hours a year of the course; add to that the time you will spend thinking in that languages and light preparing for the lectures or studying
you can of course take a more intensive course, but it is not really needed in my opinion; just try to study for as long as 1 year
in my opinion that is the optimal speed to get a very solid base in the language and a level of matura-B2 or whatever it is called in your country
after that many doors will be opened and you will have done a great favour to yourself once you have some nice knowledge, you can start to read news on that language, chat with people on internet, watch movies and what not..
its a very enjoyable thing and you will surely meet new people and broaden your views from a career point of view - it might not be highly regarded, the recruiters and firms will see it as a plus, but most people do not appreciate this as much as it should be appreciated
I know French and Russian. French is moderately harder than English (verbs have varying suffixes depending on the associated pronoun, there are more verb tenses, nouns can be masculine or feminine, and the grammar is a complete mess and pain in the ass). Russian is even harder... words have declensions and there are also plenty of weird-ass rules.. so learn French if anything; but bear in mind that it will be very hard, as few words have the same root as in English. As for German, it's less spoken than both around the world and Nazis spoke it
WHAT THE NAZIS SPOKE GERMAN?? WHAT THE F*CK I thought it was English in all the movies they speak English and stuff! Why did they speak German? Is it secretly a made-up Nazi Language? Oh my dear God, thank you for revealing that the Nazis spoke German! I never knew!
But Germany is also the only strong economy in Europe ... I found French/Spanish much easier than English. Sure, you have to conjugate words, and there are two genders, but the grammar is cake, much like French (and the spelling, as well, because it's consistent). If you want to compare it to German, I think you'd find German grammar tenfold as difficult.
Russian I know is also very difficult to learn ...
But seriously, the Commies spoke Russian. And the cheese eating surrender monkeys spoke French. And the English speakers have Richard Simmons. So we've all had the people who shame us - so drop the Nazi stuff. We all know, and no one cares, so for future reference, mentioning stuff like makes you sound like an idiot. Every time.
A lot of people will appreciate the effort, and by all means learn a language if you WANT to learn a language. If you're learning it to try and get ahead in work and have no interest, then you're going to have an even harder time.
Languages take an incredibly long time to learn fluently. Let alone having to learn all the business words needed to properly function in a financial society. The easiest way to learn a language is immersion. If you want to learn it, study abroad there. If you're serious about it, do that. It'll be a lot easier. I lived in Russia for 4 years; I took a semester of Russian there in 7th grade, and by the time I was in 9th grade (having taken no other russian classes, and going to an american school), I could hold a decent conversation. A very basic one, but I could hold it nonetheless. I wasn't even taken a Russian class at the time. Immersion is a wonderful thing and will make it A LOT easier to learn.
Does anyone have any edge on which Megafunds (or even MM Funds) are hiring primarily spanish speaking natives?
bump
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