Getting into the Big 4 and Your Future Career
Nowadays, as the competition steadily increases and fortune 100 entry-level positions become inexperienced college grad's new goal, what must one do to get ahead.
Just a few quick questions about the Big 4:
- What is the Big 4's stereotypical entry-level candidate?
- How difficult is it to get hired for entry-level positions at the Big4? Who is the competition?
- What does having 3+ years of Big 4 experience mean for one's professional life (later down the road)?
- Why do people talk so much trash about work/life balance, long working hours, etc. yet Big 4 firms have great ratings on glassdoor, cnn fortune100, best places to work in the world articles, etc?
-Google, Apple and Facebook hire ivy league pedigrees.
Whereas Big 4 hires ________.
What Type of Candidates do Big Four Firms Look For?
Typically, Big 4 firms (Deloitte, PWC, EY, KPMG) look for candidates from prestigious schools (outside of the ivy league) and good state schools. One user explains it best:
The stereotypical Big 4 candidate is someone who did well at a good university sans Ivy League. And each office usually pulls by region. For example, if you work in the LA office, you'll learn that there is a huge USC contingent there. In Chicago, lots of Notre Dame people. In Houston, lots of UT people. You get the idea. But you're not going to see many Ivy League people in the Big 4 (with the only exception being Deloitte Consulting.) Also, you're going to see people from less-well known schools in the region if they did well (e.g., Loyola in Chicago.)
User @jsarbitrage" highlights the important point that hiring is often done at schools near regional offices.
How Difficult Is It To Get A Big 4 Job?
Like most answers when it comes to recruiting, how hard it is to break in largely depends on your background, your school, and what division you want to pursue.
On the difficulty scale, depends on which group you want to get into. Remember, for audit/tax, the Big 4 is their bulge bracket. It's where all the top students want to work. The number one guy in your accounting program is busting his ass to get into the Big 4. But it's not super competitive because the Big 4 hire massive amounts of people and most top student from the elite schools go into BB/MBB.
Working for Clients After the Big 4
While Big 4 companies do have strong brand names - it is not as strong as the reputation of bulge bracket banks and the MBB of consulting. That being said, the big 4 companies are still known and respected internationally. It is most likely that you will go on to work with one of your clients or for a company that is in a similar industry that you focused on while working in the big 4.
Why is the Big 4 Looked Down Upon?
First, it is important to note that this site has a Wall Street focus and most users have or want to have Wall Street experience. Therefore, they are predisposed to prefer Wall Street careers. That being said, working for a big bank or for prestigious consulting firms are notably better places to start your career from a reputational standpoint.
From a work life balance standpoint, the big 4 are great employers and after spending 2 - 3 years there you will have a great experience to talk about in future interviews. The hate thrown towards big 4 careers is a product of this site and the fact that users place a premium on prestige.
Learn more about working in the big 4 in the video below.
Read More About the Big 4 on WSO
Preparing for Investment Banking Interviews?
The WSO investment banking interview course is designed by countless professionals with real world experience, tailored to people aspiring to break into the industry. This guide will help you learn how to answer these questions and many, many more.
In terms of compensation, steady career path, continuous education, and more --
http://goingconcern.com/2011/5/pwcs-new-compensation-structure-gets-the…
-- it looks pretty dang sweet if you ask me.
I really don't think Fortune 100 entry level positions are anyone's wet dream.
In terms of compensation, and opportunities, big 4 is not in the same league as investment banking/consulting and other careers discussed on this site.
According to your link, optimistically speaking, it takes 12 years for an auditor to make $150k+. Banking pays that out of the gate to a 21 year old.
To answer your questions:
1) Stereotypical candidate comes from a state university. 2) Big 4s hires thousands of grads each year. 3) Gives you opportunities into financial reporting/internal audit, more support functions 4) You work bad hours during busy season, and they get trashed because they don't compensate you well enough for that much of a work load.
This.
In before the haters hating on the Big 4.
:'(
No to be rude man, but you're on the wrong site. You will probably get much more insightful respones elsewhere.
OP, people here aren't really into Big 4 unless they're going for consulting. I know plenty of Accounting majors who make bank and sought to get into Big 4 firms at a target school. Yes, we can argue all day about the ups and downs of Big 4 vs. Wall Street, etc., but you may want to look elsewhere for unbiased opinion.
First and foremost, Big 4 can mean a lot of things. It can range from your traditional audit and tax services to enterprise risk, consulting, investment banking, restructuring, etc. So you have to be more specific.
Secondly, one's experience with the Big 4 varies greatly by service line and office location. So someone who works in valuation in the New York office has a much different experience than someone that works in valuation in Dallas and they both have much different experiences than someone that works in audit in Chicago.
But to answer your questions:
The stereotypical Big 4 candidate is someone who did well at a good university sans Ivy League. And each office usually pulls by region. For example, if you work in the LA office, you'll learn that there is a huge USC contingent there. In Chicago, lots of Notre Dame people. In Houston, lots of UT people. You get the idea. But you're not going to see many Ivy League people in the Big 4 (with the only exception being Deloitte Consulting.) Also, you're going to see people from less-well known schools in the region if they did well (e.g., Loyola in Chicago.)
On the difficulty scale, depends on which group you want to get into. Remember, for audit/tax, the Big 4 is their bulge bracket. It's where all the top students want to work. The number one guy in your accounting program is busting his ass to get into the Big 4. But it's not super competitive because the Big 4 hire massive amounts of people and most top student from the elite schools go into BB/MBB.
Having a Big 4 name can be great for your professional career or worthless, depending on what you are trying to achieve in the future. Does it have the prestige of BB/MBB? Absolutely not. But it's definitely in the class of firm that has universal recognition. You can work in TAS in Chicago and apply for a corporate development job in Singapore and the employer will immediately recognize your firm. Most people in the Big 4 usually move into industry, which is really just to say that you'll for your old clients. If you do audit for a tech company, you'll probably move into a controller position at a tech company. If you do TAS/valuation for oil, you'll probably move into corporate development/internal M&A for an oil company. Enterprise risk for financial services and you'll move into back-office for a major bank. You get the idea.
Think of it like this: the Big 4 is like bulge bracket for the masses. It's not a secret that the true best places to start a career are the BB banks, MBB firms, Big Tech, etc. These are the places that take the Ivy Leaguers and creme of the top 20 undergrads. But you can't put that on the cover of Business Week for new grads because so few people can make it there. If you go to a public high-school, you're chances of going to Ivy League are probably 1% or so. My pub high-school had like 1300 grads and only 2 went to H/S/Y/P. And I went to a damn good, upper-class pub school. If you go to a normal high-school, there is a good chance you get 1-2 H/Y/S/P every decade. So you have a 1%-er who went Ivy League and then had to do damn well to get into BB/MBB/Tech Giant. So, statistically, you need to have a TON of the right upbringing, luck and hard work to get into MBB/BB/Tech Giant. So it makes sense that Goldman, McKinnsey don't trade number 1 place to start a career in any major magazine year after year.
But the Big 4 definitely offer someone who kicked ass a normal public high-school and kicked ass at a good/great college a chance to do big things. There are tons of big name Big 4 alumni at very high levels of business.
But, again, this is WALL STREET Oasis, so of course you're going to have people here that sling poo at the Big 4. Just like Harvard message boards sling poo at the Cornells and Browns of the world. But don't think that means, objectively speaking, that Cornell/Brown aren't amazing colleges. They are. It's just you're on a board filled with the creme of the crop so you're going to get this reaction.
This will be useful for you if you want to compare how lucrative industry exits are compared to staying at Big 4.
http://goingconcern.com/post/and-now-lets-compare-three-different-15-ye…
Just a heads up: those numbers are way off. $47k associate. $244K for a partner. Big red flags. PWC actually published the average compensation for the partners a few years back. It was $650K.
Or think of it another way: even the lowest associate gets billed out at ~$250/hour. With a 10 person group working 2000 hours a year, that's $5M in revenue. Take off 50% for all-in expenses, and that's $2.5M that a 10 person group pulls in for the partnership. You think a partner who got admitted to the inner-circle because he pulls in the clients that lead to that billing in the first place is going to let the firm give him less than 10% back? The math doesn't make sense.
Completely right. A friend of mine has a dad who's a parter at Deloitte. Makes well over $500k a year, has so many Skymiles he can fly first class internationally with the family for free, etc.
Last I heard base for 1st year audit associates in smaller markets is at or below $50k. That said large markets and advisory group associates can start in the high 50's/low 60's. Keep in mind that there's little/no bonus structure.
Partners are definitely making more $250k. There can be a lot of variability, though; there are thousands of partners in these firms and an internal hierarchy as you move up in the firm's management.
like anything else, it's all relative. relative to working in a prestigious finance/consulting/tech gig, being at a big 4 firm is going to be pretty mundane and less than desirable. relative to other things you could be doing, working for a big 4 firm can be an amazing option that provides you with an almost certain outcome.
most people who start at a big 4 firm will spend a few years and move to industry, change careers completely, or go back to grad school to change things up. some obviously make partner. the hours can be demanding, but that is relative too. i've worked in a big 4 setting for almost 3 years, across 2 firms and 2 different practices, and I can say I average around 50 hours in the office or at the client site per week. some would say those are terrible hours, but most people on this site would love to have those hours.
if you stay in the big 4 for a longer period of time the compensation can increase pretty quickly. in any case, if you start right after college and make manager under the normal schedule of 5-6 years, you can expect to be making total compensation in the low 100k range. spend another 2-3 years and make senior manager and your total compensation jumps to the mid-high 100k range. continue on from there and you pay increases more drastically. one thing to consider, it's not like you have to be stellar to accomplish this. if your reasonably smart and are willing to put in the work, these outcomes are standard and pretty much a given. with the possible exception of making partner, moving through the ranks is really dependent on if you are willing to stick around, not whether you can bring something exceptional to the table.
now, most people spend 2-4 years in the big 4 and bounce and go to industry, working in the corp accounting, internal audit, fp&a, tax, etc, departments of a business. as an example, if an auditor with 3-4 years of experience jumps to industry in a traditional role, it's safe to say they can be pulling in around 80k working a standard corporate schedule. where they go from there is really based on them, some luck, and if they can navigate that corporate setting. for every big 4 senior or manager who jumps to industry and makes a high level CFO type position, there are many many more who top out at the senior manager/vp/director level. Still, the overall compensation and lifestyle for those positions is damn good in my opinion, and there is always the chance, albeit potentially small, that you could catch a break and land one of those dream executive jobs.
one last thing to consider. there is a real peace of mind associated with starting at a big 4 firm, getting your cpa, and continuing on that career path. despite the large chance that you will never make the type of dollars that people in other industries will, you can rest assured your lifestyle will be better than most, you won't get crushed by hours/stress, and there is no real threat of ever being unemployed. but, if you value money more than those circumstances, i can see how the big 4 track would not be appealing.
Great post. Also your statement about comp is dead on - if you stick with it, your comp will go up, sometimes drastically. The problem is that like you said, the work can be pretty mundane. Case in point - alumni came to campus from Deloitte and said "Well.. the first year isn't that good. And it really isn't that good after that. But after a while, you make more money!" Friend's dad who's a parter at Deloitte also came home one day, put his head in his hands, sighed, and told his son "Don't go into accounting." Now if you are interested in accounting and like that kind of work, working for Big 4 is a stellar option that could end up making you quite well off if you make partner. But like everyone else said, it's all relative, i.e. job security at Big 4 with knowledge that if you work hard you'll most likely eventually be able to make very good money vs. greater risk, worse hours, more interesting work, less job security, higher wealth potential, etc, in other areas of finance.
I cannot speak toward audit. But the chart provided says "associate, senior associate, etc." which implies it is an advisory scale, not an audit scale. I've never heard of a person making $47K to start in advisory. You'd have to be in the Scranton office or something for that.
Fair enough, but like I said, it'd have to be a really, really small market office and is not representative of any kind of average or median. Especially when PwC is one of the higher paying firms (along with Deloitte.)
Anyone know the bonus for PwC TS first year associates? I know base (in a major mkt) is 59k.
Thank you for all of the informative replies. Big thanks especially to jsarbitrage, manbearpig (very relevant article), and _bird for taking the time to provide the thorough and honest answers that many people are looking for.
A few of my favorite takeaways:
jsarbitrage: -"Think of it like this: the Big 4 is like bulge bracket for the masses." -"Remember, for audit/tax, the Big 4 is their bulge bracket. It's where all the top students want to work. The number one guy in your accounting program is busting his ass to get into the Big 4." -"But the Big 4 definitely offer someone who kicked ass a normal public high-school and kicked ass at a good/great college a chance to do big things."
manbearpig: -"http://goingconcern.com/post/and-now-lets-compare-three-different-15-ye…" -"If anything, private industry is a lot less linear than working in public. Upward movement doesn’t occur unless there is an open slot. Most private companies have turnover in the single digits resulting in even less open slots for promotion. Then you will compete with external as well as internal candidates."
_bird: -"most people who start at a big 4 firm will spend a few years and move to industry, change careers completely, or go back to grad school to change things up. some obviously make partner." -"if your reasonably smart and are willing to put in the work, these outcomes are standard and pretty much a given. with the possible exception of making partner, moving through the ranks is really dependent on if you are willing to stick around, not whether you can bring something exceptional to the table. " -"as an example, if an auditor with 3-4 years of experience jumps to industry in a traditional role, it's safe to say they can be pulling in around 80k working a standard corporate schedule. where they go from there is really based on them, some luck, and if they can navigate that corporate setting. for every big 4 senior or manager who jumps to industry and makes a high level CFO type position, there are many many more who top out at the senior manager/vp/director level." -"there is a real peace of mind associated with starting at a big 4 firm, getting your cpa, and continuing on that career path. despite the large chance that you will never make the type of dollars that people in other industries will, you can rest assured your lifestyle will be better than most, you won't get crushed by hours/stress, and there is no real threat of ever being unemployed."
Also, good to know that the pay is potentially much higher for partners. Thanks for the logical breakdown and clearing that up.
The questions are very general and will hopefully prove to be helpful for others with the same kind of questions, regardless of department/division. Personally, I've been looking into Transfer Pricing (TP) and tax positions at the Big 4. Based off a few weeks of research, I've read through a lot of mixed reviews and decided to pursue a career in TP.
It may in fact be true that choosing a career in TP will limit one's skill set if that person decides to make a change later in life; however, it can also prove to be a very fulfilling career. I found a thread, related to Big 4 Tax/TP Exit Options, that may be relative and useful for others:
"For an exit in 2 to 3 years you would be looking at government TP / Taxation employment (around A$100k with reasonable track record) that could leverage to senior management if you stay the course; employment in large global enterprise as an in house TP expert (big bucks here but very narrow focus); setting up your own external economics consultancy based on TP (TP would be the bread and butter work, you can then leverage into other areas); or you could even just stay in one of the Big 4 and shift to management / partner stream - then the whole world of upper management etc opens up." -econjobrumors economist 8821 (for more: http://www.econjobrumors.com/topic/exit-options-transfer-pricing-econom…)
Just to add a bit more about TP as a career - I found an insightful article on another forum,
Transfer Pricing and Tax @ Big 4 "OK, this might be long but it think it will answer your questions. First, you can be hired into Big 4 transfer pricing with only a bachelor degree (preferably in economics and then finance, we don't even interview accounting majors) but someone with an advanced degree will come in making about 80% more than an undergraduate [look at figures below/above]. Currently, we are looking for PhDs, but have historically looked for JDs as well. If you have a JD but no economics or finance background then a LLM in Tax would most likely be needed to get hired.
The daily work is somewhat repetitive. IRS rules dictate A LOT of what can be done with transfer pricing. The idea that anyone will come in and create some great new transfer pricing model that will make their clients money is delusional. Mostly, we come in and try to fit a particular client's financial information into the framework set forth by the IRS. Any planning study that is done will basically show a client how to set up their transfer pricing in such a way as to avoid penalties. In the past, when other countries did not have structured transfer pricing rules, it was easier to be creative and shift income. Now, having to take both countries' laws into effect, there is little room for creativity for the majority of international businesses. However, there are some new areas of transfer pricing that are quite interesting, such as options modeling for the transfer of intangibles and cost sharing structures that distribute income based on profit drivers.
For the first year or two you just really learn about the rules and don't have too much room for decisions. After 2 years, you start to get some room to make choices (different ways to go about the same problem). The interesting part is that you get to deal with many different companies and many different transfer pricing structures. That is where the variety is. I guess the real function of a transfer pricing consultant is to fit each unique company into the rules provided by the IRS and other country tax authorities.
Work life balance depends on the office (more hours in NY then Atlanta) but is generally better than the rest of the firm (if you are in Big 4). I average between 40 and 50 and only hit the sixty hour mark once or twice a year. Some people will see this and disagree but like I said its all about the office. I can also work from home sometimes with no issues. Yes, you still need to bill hours but you only need about 85% utilization to be OK. There is not much of a busy season (mostly for 9/15 deadlines) and the travel is not bad (only to client sites for interview, maybe 2-3 days per month). If you work for a big firm then there are a lot of perks, free meals all the time, lots of vacation, happy hours, and you work with a lot of younger people which makes for a better work atmosphere.
The most important thing to keep in mind is that the IRS and world governments are increasing their scrutiny of transfer pricing, which means the field is growing. Many firms are creating new offices around the country and the demand for qualified transfer pricing professionals is really high. I get a new offer to leave every week and after each project I usually end up getting a call from the client trying to make an offer. There is a lot of money to be made in this field. Sure, it can sometimes be a little boring, but so can any job.
I hope this helps. If I were you I would go on the interviews and talk to the people in each specific office. Ask them how much they work per week and if their boss gives them the flexibility to make decisions. Good luck." -Urch user id: 1981(for more: http://www.urch.com/forums/phd-economics/81180-transfer-pricing-2.html)
Beg to differ?
Don't forget that the Big 4 firms have their own banking advisory practices, too; you won't get paid nearly as well as at a BB, but I think you'll find that the people are more laid back and you won't usually be pulling 100-hour weeks.
I think we could use a lot more input about advisory in the big four instead of audit/accounting. I'm currently in between undergrad and 1 year masters program, en route into advisory @ PwC or Deloitte and everyone I know says Advisory makes more than audit right off the bat at the big 4 (hear it levels out but starting is significantly more for recent grads). Not only the salary higher (grads I know clocked in around 60k-65k + 5k-8k bonus 1st year out of MIS in PwC's CIO Advisory practice and friends in audit started lower +55k) but on top of that, the fact that the only days you spend your own money are thursday night - sunday + miles & starwood points etc. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I hear advisory associates make senior associate much quicker (http://www.glassdoor.com/GD/Salary/PricewaterhouseCoopers-Chicago-Salar…
I'd really appreciate any experienced professionals input on PwC Advisory or Deloitte strategy instead of the focus on their accounting practices. Sure they are mainly accounting but Deloitte is a significant consulting company with a solid reputation of mixing strategy and implementation and PwC's acquisition of Diamond + PRTM is making big waves.
I'm only 22 years old and I have a lot to learn, but any input/opinions on the above or elaborations on the Big 4 salaries/exit opportunities specifically in regard to their consulting arms would be appreciated.
Thanks
1) Starting salaries - If I'm not mistaken, in the US they do start at higher salaries, even in their first year out of undergrad. Where I am Advisory 1st-years have a base comp equal to that of Audit and Tax 1st-years, but can get bigger bonuses, dependent of course on performance.
2) Travel - Depends on the deals you're working on. Quite probably more travel than in Audit, but certainly nowhere near as much travelling as the folks in consulting do. Tax people pretty much don't travel at all, but have really really reaaaaaally stable schedules. You can work 40-hour weeks most of the year, going up to 50-60 during tax season.
3) Promotions - Yep, you can indeed get promoted faster than the Audit and Tax people do, but you do also have to perform well. If you don't, you might not get fired - where I am, PwC for example claims to have never fired a single person since inception - but you might get "counselled out", which I believe is pretty common practice in this industry.
4) Switching from Advisory to Consulting - It doesn't really work how most people outside of the firms think it works. You might have a slightly easier time networking, in that you can more easily get your hands on introductions to Partners on the other side and such, but the firms themselves are effectively pretty much separate entities. Has to do with the whole Enron debacle, I believe.
Thanks for the quick detailed response. I guess when I reffered to "consulting" I meant S&O @ Deloitte or Advisory @ PwC. While I'd be happy to move to MBB, I'd rather start somewhere right out of my MIS program where there is a strong Big10 network and build my own network on that rather then throwing it out the window with a move to MBB. And yeah I'm an IT Strategy guy and I'm very uninterested in accounting (tax/audit), idk how people in accounting don't go insane so I'm excited for the mo-thu travel & ~60-80 hr work week.
And yeah even in the US i think salaries are quite different. I'm in the Chicago market which is probably comparable to NY or LA, but anywhere else I think there is drop off.
If you don't mind me asking, what area/vertical within PwC do you work for, and how long have you been there?
Thanks
In 2001 Scott Hartz (Forbes puts him as CEO at the time) was quoted as saying: “We did separate about 400 staff, but frankly that’s something we do every year — we go through an annual evaluation cycle, and adjustments have to be made.”
Tell me you mean the office you're at hasn't "fired" a single person. Because "layoffs" in all the big four over time have been well-documented.
Yep, just the particular office over here.
Definitely better job security in Audit/Tax than in Advisory, but even in Advisory, or in M&A specifically, there doesn't seem to be quite as much (involuntary) turnover as there is at the banks. Might not be the case - just seems that way.
I have a quick question regarding the employees at the Big 4.
Do all these people hold an accounting degree? Could anybody join the Big 4 with any other type of business degree (e.g. economics, finance, or business adminitration)? I'm aware that these companies are all about audit, tax, and consulting, but the question is could it be possible for non-accounting majors to join the firm? And if so, which department do they usually end up being in?
Well you need to be a CPA for audit and tax at the least (not sure about the other groups), and the credit hour requirements for CPA licensure pretty much require you to have an accounting degree. See http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/cpa/cpalic.htm
I got a position without an accounting degree. Most people in the interview had Commerce or Economics degrees. These weren't advisory positions though, they were assurance.
That said, I have good marks on my accounting subjects and have studied it since high school, and I'll end up getting my CA or CPA while with the firm.
In Audit and Tax, you'll largely find people with accounting degrees. On the Advisory side, however, you get people with a much wider variety of degrees, depending on the particular sub-department. M&A and Valuation have plenty of people with other types of degrees, whereas someone in Forensic Services is, naturally, far more likely to have come from a background in accounting.
It's best not to have an accounting degree if you want to work on the consulting side.
How are Big 4 Corporate Restructuring or M&A Advisory departments?
I have more than 20 friends who work at Big 4 firms. All of them want to kill themselves. They work in little cubicles and you need to put in an extreme amount of time if you want to be promoted. Most people reach depression in the field. The salaries are average, work is boring and dull. Culture is mehh.
How are Big 4 Corporate Restructuring or M&A Advisory departments?
M&A consulting at Big 4 is mainly about day one planning and post-merger integration. Obviously you're not negotiating deals like in banking. Your job is to come in, figure out the most efficient/most cost-effective/least stressful methods to get the combined or new company running without a hitch. This means working out kinks in supply chain management, HR/employee management (who do we fire? what departments are useless?), etc. Think operationally instead of financially; it's not your job to calculate synergies or recommend purchases. Your job is to plan how it should happen, logistically.
Obviously not really a stepping stone to financial M&A, since it's not exactly the same skillset. If you're working in the transaction/valuation side of Big 4 you might see M&A type deals where you're called to verify statements and do financial due diligence, but it's not really akin to what you'd see at an i-bank or PE firm, for example.
This is incorrect, for the millionith time. Each of the firms have a Corporate Finance arm that absolutely do middle-market deals.
Hi guys! I'm very open with my experiences here:
All the details from the inside out Deloitte SF. This would be helpful for you to watch.
Acquiring an Internship or FT Position at Big 4 Accounting Firm (Originally Posted: 10/18/2017)
Hi friends,
Before I ask my question to ask your advice on how to acquire a position (internship or FT) within a Big 4 Accounting Firm, please allow me to share some context.
Work Background: - Currently employed as a paralegal for a well-known law firm (going on 4 years now) - 9 years of paralegal experience working specifically with patent law (all industries) and real estate
Education Background: - Completed dual degree as undergraduate in Economics and Political Science (I maintained a 3.3 GPA while working FT)
I recently decided to go back to school to pursue a Masters degree in Public Accounting at a fairly reputable institution in California (UC program), in hopes that I might transition into a career in Public Accounting. My Masters program is a 2-year PT program, which allows me to continue working such that I'm able to attend night classes. (I should note that my program allows me to be "CPA Eligible" in June 2019, and so I've been applying to Internship positions at all of the Big 4.)
I do consider myself an intelligible socialite, having gone to multiple networking events, and feel as though I've impressed a majority of the campus recruiters from each of the Big 4. I can also say, in complete earnest, that my resume/cover letter are equally as impressive. To my surprise, though, I was denied an initial campus interview from each of the Big 4 when I applied for Internship positions for reasons such as "qualifications don't match", "staffing requirements don't match", etc.
That being said, could anybody tell me if I'm doing anything wrong? Should I apply for FT positions instead of internships? Is my work experience (current or otherwise) hurting my chances at internships?
Thanks friends
drnick175, have you checked out these or run a search:
More suggestions...
If those topics were completely useless, don't blame me, blame my programmers...
Trying to get into Big 4? (Originally Posted: 07/17/2012)
To any of you monkeys seeking to get into the Big 4:
My firm has a great employee referral program through which I can refer qualified candidates for open positions. If you would like to send me your resume, shoot me a PM and we can schedule a time to talk. Please note that our system does not allow me to refer entry-level candidates. However, if you are in college I would still be happy to answer any questions and give you some advice. Also please note that I can only present candidates for the U.S. or India.
If I don't feel your resume has a good chance of landing you an interview, I'm going to be up front about it, tell you so, and explain what I think you need to do to improve your chances. Hopefully I can help! Thanks to all you who joined this group, and please let me know if I can help you with anything.
-808
808,
Glad to hear you can help us. I am in the process of polishing my resume a bit. I'm an upcoming junior in a five year program to get 150 credit hours. I would love to have you look at it when its finished. I'm working 60 hours a week right now (busy season training? lol), so time isnt always available for me to work on it, but I'm trying to.
Thanks for creating this group and making yourself available to us, --Art Vandelay
Absolutely - send me a PM when your resume is ready, and I can give you my email for you to send it to. You have plenty of time since recruiting season doesn't start until September.
Hey 808,
Thanks for opening yourself up to questions. I'm a college student so am still looking into the roads I want to take with my career. I take it that you have worked in a a Big 4 firm so have some knowledge of what it is like, my question to you is how much do you think you actually learned? I ask this because my goal in going into accounting is to learn business and what it takes to run a business (I plan on launching a startup within 3 years of graduating). I've heard from a few sources that people actually learn more at smaller firms, did you find this to be true? Also what are some of the more highly regarded nonbig 4 firms?
Yes, I previously worked for one Big 4 firm, and am currently at another (I switched to get an early promotion). I think at any public accounting firm you will learn a lot - in order to audit something about a business, you have to have a good understanding of what it is first. You'll probably see a lot of different businesses, and a lot of different parts of each of those businesses. However, the biggest part about what I've learned is "soft skills" (communication, organization, project management, etc.) as opposed to technical accounting skills or general business knowledge.
At a smaller firm, there is a chance you will have a wider variety of experience. A firm with $10 million in revenue will require a little bit less auditing for each financial statement line item. The fact that smaller firms will probably also not be subject to SEC regulations is another factor that will lead to more variety and less technical work. However, the Big 4 are really moving into the smaller markets right now. This is especially happening with private equity-owned small companies, because if the firm can build that relationship with the PE firm through the audit, that can lead to a lot of revenue. The result of this fact is that those who work at Big 4 can have just as wide a variety of experience as those in smaller firms. You can probably request to be put on smaller clients.
The biggest difference is that Big 4 alumni get far more respect because of the name and because of the experience with larger clients. Your network will also be much better, partly due to the quality of people you will work with, and partly due to the type of clients. My goals are similar to yours, and I am sticking with Big 4 because it gives the best experience and the best network, and the hours are reasonable enough that you can start a side business in your free time. Having a Big 4 background is also the world's greatest insurance policy. You will always be employable, which means you can take more risks - you have that to fall back on.
If you're dead set on a smaller firm, look at listings of firm sizes (http://www.raffa.com/assets/File/IPA_top100_2011.pdf for example). I probably can't help you with firm reputations within your particular geographic location, so I would try to reach out to any local contacts you have to try to get an idea of what they think about the other firms in the area.
I'm certainly not married to the idea of going to a small firm, I just want to ensure I learn as much as possible. Having a choose of working with smaller companies seems like something I would enjoy and would learn a lot from. Also the name brand of a Big 4 firm would provide life long (hopefully) job security. Thanks for the reply
I work at a Big4 in audit and agree with 808's comments regarding soft skills.
Working as a senior accountant (auditor, associate...whatever you want to call it) is quite challenging and significantly develops your leadership skills as you'll be running a team, dealing with senior client management and juggling the expectations of your engagement executives, often across more than one client at any given time.
Hujja - well put. Entry-level accounting in itself isn't the most prestigious or highest-paying occupation in the world, but the experience of working in public accounting is a soft-skills training course that is second to none.
One other note about audit at small vs. Big 4 accounting firms - I hear a lot of people saying that at a small firm, you will get a greater variety of experience, and as I said above, this is often true. However, I would say it is important to make a distinction in the type of variety you're getting. F500 clients will more or less have their act together, so you'll probably only find a few misstatements each audit. This means that you will spend more time cranking through selections or investigating discrepancies that turn out to have a legitimate business reason. On the other hand, smaller clients will probably be less on the ball. I've been at clients where I've found errors in dozens of areas within a week of the start of the audit.
The result is that Big 4 experience will give you a better variety of business knowledge, while a small-firm experience will require you to hone your technical skills a bit more. (Note that I'm speaking about your first few years of experience - at higher levels in Big 4 you have to start being a technical expert regarding SEC standards and regulations.) This is another reason to go for Big 4 if your ultimate goal is entrepreneurship, as knowledge of how businesses operate will be far more useful than knowledge of how are supposed to record specific activity.
Sorry, double post.
Hey 808,
Are you familiar with the TAS practice? Most of the information on this forum seems to be regarding breaking into IBD from TAS. I wanted to know more about the transition process into TAS from audit and also how the work compares.
I'm starting at a midtier in the fall under audit but did a busy season internship. I want to break into TAS so trying to find out as much as I can. Thanks in advance!
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