The joys of returning to school
For those of us going to b-school this fall, will any of you miss the life you have now, professionally and socially? I recently had this conversation over drinks with a few former co-workers who asked whether I regret quitting my job to go to school and not make money for 2 years. As for me, I'm going to miss the city and my friends here, although I intend to visit reasonably often. I also suppose not getting a paycheck will be a bit of a shocker, but aside from that, I don't think there's much to miss. Having the freedom to do what I want, access to awesome parties, and meeting awesome people will hopefully be worth it.
this post gave you your 666th banana point. just saying
Great observation!
On a totally unrelated topic, the most money I ever lost in a single hand of poker was at a bellagio cash game where the flop was 666. All the money went in on the flop. I had pocket queens, he had kings.
Wait, you are going to b-school? Since when?
I think it's going to be so epic. As soon as you show up, there are going to be so many amazing girls around you. And the level of conversation will be well into that 1% range. From treks through Nepal, to micro-finance projects in Ghana, to late nights at Goldman TMT, it will be mesmerizing stuff, no doubt.
And after you finish up, you'll be a changed man. Girls will just flock to you. They'll see Wharton all over your face. They've been waiting for you to get those letters behind your name.
It's going to be the CRAZIEST TWO YEARS EVER!!!!!!
Ok, you're trolling, but I appreciate your enthusiasm. I agree though that it will be a crazy epic 2 years.
I guess now we know that he's not Brady4MVP. Someone speculated about the possibility recently, can't remember where.
I've said a million times that I'm not brady4mvp, but people have speculated that I was him or that I'm IP pretending to be brady and every other combination imaginable. At this point I've stopped caring whether people think i'm brady or not. I know brady personally and will not comment whatsoever on what he's been up to, where he will be going, etc.
Oh man. Spot for sale.
The greatest trick Brady4MVP ever played was convincing the world that he did not exist any longer
sorry to hear that. how much money did you lose
$20K. It was the 25/50 no-limit cash game; i bought in for $10K and had $20K when the hand went down. I raised in early position with pocket queens to 170 and the guy in the big blind re-raised to 450. I then 4-bet to 1200, and after thinking about it for a while, he just flat called. I put him on AK, AQ, or a medium pocket pair like 8's, 9's, 10's. The flop was 666; he checked, and I bet 1500 to see where I was at. I really did not put him on pocket kings or aces, so when he raised to 4200 I instantly said "all-in." He could not wait to call and turned over his kings. I nearly puked.
Unless he was a crazy lag Scando what a donk play, you think he check raises you on 4bet pot with that board with air or a mid pair? You even said 'I bet 1500 to see where I was at'. GL at Wharton though.
This thread may be a little tongue-in-cheek, but I often think about how sick it would be to go to Kellogg or something. Then again I live in the middle of nowhere haha.
B-school really is crazy fun, so your fantasy is warranted. I'm 100% confident that it will be more fun than college or even post-college professional life in a major city.
how are your coworkers enjoying their jobs? isn't the morale across the floor pretty bad?
Yes, most traders hate their jobs. They're looking to get out, either to other areas of finance, other industries altogether, or MBA.
SO MUCH THIS.
Brady what stakes did you play online poker at? Msnl?
Going Back To School? (Originally Posted: 11/08/2013)
Just trying to get a grasp of where I stand currently, and trying to figure out my options.
Short background, my undergrad was very disappointing for me. Due to some personal problems beyond my control, a few changes of heart, and the lack of any sort of career counseling at my business school, or by anybody in the department at all really, I did not do well. And, frankly, I wish I didn't go where I did. I also somewhat regret majoring in finance, as it turned out to be a joke, fairly useless, and isn't seeming that it will get me anywhere near my dream (working in a P&L-generating capacity at a hedge fund) or anywhere even on the path.
I killed it in HS, and even had an interview at HYSP but, being far more ignorant than I am now 5 years ago, I wasn't sure how the financial aid would pan out, and I'm ashamed to admit I somewhat sandbagged the interview. That is definitely in the top 3 list of the stupidest things I have ever done in my life.
I wish I could go back and redo it. I originally wanted to be an engineer, then changed my mind last minute. The school I chose to go to was big on engineering, but the business school suffers from almost no attention whatsoever, a nonexistent alumni network, appalling placement, and nobody that has graduated from there in recent times has ever really gone on to make it in finance. These are all things I didn't know when I changed my mind to join the business school that day.
I have desperately wanted to get my economics degree, and even am interested in computer science and math. I desperately need a better GPA, and frankly would love to actually be in an environment full of people who actually give a shit about learning, and to learn something myself. Nothing would make me more happy at this point. Job prospects for me are garbage, at least in finance. And I feel that I came away from my undergrad experience having learned 95% of the things that I did in those 4 years on my own time and with my own effort. I cannot honestly point to a single thing that was imparted to me by any member of the faculty or staff of my school. And that disgusts me. I would love a chance to do it all again, at a new place.
I apologize for going on and on. TL;DR, is this misguided? A large part of me says yes. But the broke, jobless, and hapless side of me says "what do you have to lose?" and I'm starting to agree. Is it worth it at all to try to get into a target school and get the degrees I always wanted and with the grades I know I deserve?
Thanks in advance for reading this.
Nice to see you're trying hard to find a way to get to where you want to be. Absolutely worth it to try and go to a target school and restart from there- however unfortunately, the bigger question is whether you'd get into one.
What are your admission prospects like, in your opinion? Are they better than you imply in your post above?
Are you considering reloading on skills to try to get into a financial career or engineering? If engineering, what type?
I think you've almost answered your own question. You had a good experience during high school so that tells me you are motivated and enjoy learning. Combine that with your desire to, I suppose, re-write your university experience and eventually land a career then I think this would be a good path for you to take. I hope this is somewhat helpful to you.
Why not go the MSF route? Maybe @TNA can jump in.
Doing another undergrad is stupid. Stop pitying yourself and regretting all your decisions. I got shitty grades in undergrad (under 3.0) and went to a non-target when I could have gone to a better school because I didn't really know. Oh well, moving on. It didn't stop me and hasn't stopped so many others from getting great jobs. Stop crying and talk to people in the industry, get an unpaid internship, get a back office job in a satellite office, apply to jobs that don't stress GPAs, etc.
I, unlike 'Oil', do not think you are motivated because if you were, it would not have mattered the setting you were in during college. You would have succeeded. Now when you can't get a job, you come to the realization you screwed yourself? To late bud, you dealt your own cards now you need to work twice as hard to make up for it. Not everyone can get a top tier finance job.
I agree with that looking at it from the perspective you've argued yeahright. To clarify my point to the OP, hopefully to their benefit, I'd say that during your high school experience you appeared to be motivated to some degree. As yeahright argues that is not what appears to have been the case since then. So you need to rekindle that motivation that you believe you had. Going to university may be one such way for that to happen for you. But as others have rightly pointed out, this is not the only course for you.
To amend my initial response: I misread it and thought you were aiming for a Masters degree somewhere. I absolutely wouldn't go back for another 4 years of undergrad. I'd still get a great Masters if at all possible. Unfortunately, you'll need to figure something out soon if you want a top finance job- the high school glory days are no longer relevant.
As someone who botched up college pretty badly and is now doing a MS in computer science at a target school, I can tell you that your undergrad performance won't stop you from getting into a BB or top HF. I didn't go the MBA route, so can't advise you on your chances, but I'm guessing the top MBA programs might be out of your reach since they generally don't accept applicants older than 30 and you probably need a good few years of school and work to repair the damage done in college.
The first thing to figure out is what you want to do. For me that is trading structured derivatives (or something math-heavy). I decided that I want to work at a BB first because of its exit opportunities. Next came the question "how do I get hired?" The undergrad recruitment route has closed, so there were two possibilities (1) network a lot, get a job at a small boutique firm, mutual fund, etc. and try to get hired by a BB. Or (2) do a masters degree at a target school and get recruited there. I chose the second route because an advanced degree in the right field makes getting a job much easier anywhere and the networking route can be iffy (I know one guy with a masters in finance who got a job in infrastructure at JPM and there he has stayed for the last 5 years. My impression is that it's easy to get pigeonholed, so you want to start off on the right foot.)
Next came the question of what to study. I had been working as a web developer for a couple of years already (PHP and MySQL are not hard to learn), so it made sense to go for a masters in computer science. That algorithmic trading is hot right now didn't hurt. I looked at the admissions requirements of target schools near me. They wanted about 3-4 comp sci classes, a couple of semesters of calculus, and discrete math. So, I registered as a non-degree student at a target school (they'll take you too since they can get your money without giving you a degree) and took those classes. At the same time I worked on getting my gre scores higher. It took about 2 years but by the end I had a good gpa, good gre, and a rec from a professor in the computer science dept--this counts a lot! So, they accepted me. This has been a hard road and understandably might not be for everyone. But it's something to keep in mind if other methods have failed.
One caveat with the MFE / MFin. From what I've heard a lot of schools are not in touch with the needs of industry, so you might end up learning a lot of useless stuff. Another downside is that everyone in those programs is aiming for top companies that can't possibly accept them all. Even a MS in physics with applied math courses will separate you from the pact (assuming you can program). Companies aren't looking for cookie cutter people.
If you have bad grades and are interested in getting a grad degree (MS/PhD, not MBA) from a target school, this is the way to do it. I know a couple people who had poor academic records from non-targets that navigated this route. It took a couple years, but they now have STEM PhDs from Ivy/Target schools. But to reiterate what MRCR said, it's a tough road.
I do hope you're not talking about going back and getting a second bachelor's at a target. Not to mention most of the target schools will not administer second bachelor's. An MSF/MFin/MFE sounds like the perfect program for you though; many of the applicants do not have finance background, it's a short program so you won't have to take another 4 years out of your life, and it will put you on a good launchpad for finance jobs. Definitely check out TNA's website, MSFHQ.com
Too many good points to quote, if I could SB I would. Just a few things to clear up.
I just graduated in May of this year, so I'm not "too old" quite yet. Still 22, so that's why I'm thinking this way.
The intent of all this would definitely be to get on track for the finance jobs I want to have. That's the main goal. Of course, all the skills I want to gain would be helpful no matter what, and with even two out of those three degrees, with a strong academic record, I feel I'd be in infinitely better shape for the career I want.
I know some have questioned whether or not I truly am motivated given my drop-off from HS to undergrad. The best I can say is, as I said in the first post, there were many extenuating circumstances, and there was lots of personal issues to deal with during college that hindered my performance quite a bit. In addition, as I said, I became disillusioned with finance after I realized that coming from my school, and with my network, there would be only the smallest of chances that I would ever make it. Therefore, yes, I became unmotivated for a period of time. But there is a big difference between having a lack of direction or lack of knowledge in what you should do with your life, and being simply unintelligent. I was the former, not the latter.
Also, as a side note. I'm not giving up entirely now. I'm working with the couple contacts I have to try to get in front of a few people that might lead to jobs. Although given my lack of experience I really cannot realistically be optimistic about these chances. Life is a bell curve, and I'm definitely in the tail. I have to accept that. Pretending otherwise is just silly and unproductive.
I have checked out TNA's site, have definitely looked at doing that. My only concern is, again, my undergrad performance. I feel that someone with a simple finance degree, an average GPA, no finance experience, and coming from a non-target will have almost as hard of a time trying to get into a decent MFIN/MFE program as getting my foot in the door at any firm. Is this true? Or should I look into it some more?
Sorry, misread your question. I've had no success networking to land a job at a Wall St. firm so I'll leave it for others to answer.
You think too much. More doing, less thinking.
There's been plenty of doing the last few months, so far all unsuccessful. That's exactly why I wrote this post. But I understand what you're saying.
Let me just reiterate this: do not do a second bachelor/undergrad. Just don't. The money, the time, the stigma... it's not worth it. Plus, most top schools do not give out second bachelors, and the semi-targets who do usually require you to apply to undergrad fresh. It's going to raise red flags if you're hoping to redo undergrad.
I would almost even say that getting p(admitted for a second bachelors) MSF/MFE)
Alright, makes sense. That's kind of what I was looking for, whether or not there would be any undue stigma related to doing that. But when I look at the requirements of any decent MFE/MFIn/MSF program, they all seem to require great GPAs, having finished Calc 1, 2, and 3, diff. eq,, and multiple stats classes. With great grades in all of those. Plus relevant work experience and maybe even letters of rec. I have none of that. I am not sure how I would get any of those without going back to school in a manner of speaking.
Don't mean to be a downer but do want to offer a reality check. Probably 50% of all people looking for a job in trading have the same aspirations as you. Most want to work as a trader, be promoted to a portfolio manager, make a fortune, and start their own hedge funds. This high school classmate I'd mentioned did the same. He joined a well-known HF (similar to Paulson), lost his job during the crash (whether through financial loss or company down-sizing--not sure), joined a small HF run by a friend and finally decided to take the leap and start his own HF at the age of 40. So far the company hasn't turned a profit. I guess the stars will decide if his company can survive in this sea of competitors.
Right. I'm not saying that I expect that to happen. But at the very least, I'd be very happy with a P&L generating position in any firm at this point. I have very realistic expectations...hence this thread. There's a million things that would have to happen for all this to work out. But, since some people seemed to be confused about what my aspirations were, I thought I would lay it out.
Trying to steer back to the original question, it looks like my only sure bet is to make sure I can basically ace the GRE, and then try to get into a halfway decent master's program. That seems to be really the only option left short of securing a FT position, which I do not see happening unless something changes.
Saying you want to be a PM at a hedge fund tells me nothing except that you're a little delusional, don't really know what a PM at a hedge fund does, and are mostly interested in it for the prestige. If you said you wanted to build a career in fundamental value investing, macro trading etc it would give you more credibility. If you're interested in hedge funds becaue you love investing then you should be ok with endowments, pension funds, insurance companies, mutual funds etc, should be trading your PA, should be making stock pitches etc (if you're doing this then I apologize) .You need to drop this HF or bust idea right now as it's holding you back. Is it possible you may be in a position to do this one day? Perhaps, but you really shouldn't be worrying about it right. What you need to do is stop blaming your school, professors, and even yourself for your current plight. What's done is done and doing another undergrad is not going to stop anything. I echo what others have saying and you need to take action rather than speculating about what the GMAT might be like. You need to have multiple processes right now. You need to find the most cost effective/attainable (seek ANT's advice) MSF in your region and begin crafting and application (make sure you include a couple reaches because you never know). You need to be actively seeking out any position that can give you some exposure to financial analysis (Back office, financial reporting, pwm). If you don't have a job/arent in an analytical role then nothing is really below you. It's going to be a slow grind but you can do it: I know someone that went back office>PWM>Boutique AM>Grad School>BB AM you just need to keep at it and get started. Good luck and don't give up.
I think you might misunderstand where I am coming from.
I wouldn't say "delusional", I'd say aspirational. I know exactly what a PM does. I am quite well aware of investment strategies used by many hedge funds as opposed to mutual funds, pension funds, other investment vehicles, etc. I didn't go into specifics because I didn't feel it necessary for the purposes of this thread. If you want specifics, I find macro strategies interesting, as well as quant-based strategies. Again, I didn't feel this relevant to the original question and therefore didn't speak about it. But there you go.
I am not interested in those other roles (as an end-game, a goal) because I am not interested in the types of strategies they use, and yes, part of me is attracted not to the prestige, I don't really care about being famous (even to people like us on WSO) but I would like to make a bit of money before I die doing something I enjoy. I don't feel that this is a "delusion" or out of line in any way. Maybe impossible, yes, but I think its important to have a goal to work towards. It gives me a general direction to go in.
As I said before, I am not above anything. I know that. I apologize if I cam off that way, although I'm not sure where I did. I am simply looking to get my foot in the door. I have been in the interview process for a few jobs the last few months, they did not work out. That's why I came here with this question. I don't expect to get a HF job anytime soon, I never did. I am very aware of my situation. I am willing to do whatever it takes to get where I want to be, and I mean that. Right now, I am working on building a quantitative model-based system, I am reading everything I can get my hands on regarding investing, math, economics, and quant analysis. That occupies a fair bit of my time, so I am quite serious. I trade my paper account, I have no money myself to actually trade at the moment. I have a small history of portfolio management, a successful one. I've got a paper started on another investment idea I feel is important to look at. I can assure you that everything you think I should be doing, I am trying to do. And I appreciate your advice very much.
One thing I would ask is something that others have brought up and something I've worried about myself, and that is if having a master's without work experience would be an overall negative. Being over-qualified is something I do worry about.
Thanks also for the encouraging words, seriously. Sorry if I have come off like a prick, but I am just simply stating facts in all my posts. Some are crappy, some are not. Don't mean to sound like I'm above anyone or anything, I certainly am not.
Thanks again I appreciate it.
I don't mean to be a douche if you're really looking for help but I can't help but wonder. Is this a troll thread? Is your real name "EvanM" and is that your picture on your profile?
I was you five years ago. No joke....Ivy league interview and all. I networked like a crazy person and weaseled my way into a decent job. I have written about my experience and would not recommend that path to anyone. You have a bunch of options, whether you see them or not, and the best one of them is to get a masters in finance.
Doing another ugrad will cause you to lose time and money, and it is not necessary. Contact TNA and see his website for details. Realize that even ivy league educated kids are facing steep competition for jobs right now, so don't think this will be easy, but you seem more than smart and focused enough to do well.
Thanks so much for the advice. I think I've seen some of your posts about that, in fact I think I almost PM'd you to ask a question but I'm glad you commented here.
Seems more and more like that's what I need to do. Do you feel that a master's program would be helpful even with no work experience? The one thing I am worried about is being over-qualified, as someone else said. However, it also seems like it's better than not working in a relevant position at all.
Also, would you recommend getting a master's right away instead of simply trying to backdoor your way up from the bottom?
I have a couple of advice for you:
Stop making excuses. Having an interview with HYSP is not an achievement. And you sandbagged the interview just because you weren't sure about the financial aid? You say you originally wanted to study engineering, but changed your mind last minute, and found out too late that the business program is crap? You have no one to blame but yourself here. Just man up and accept the fact that you didn't get an offer from HYSP and you did horrible at your school. This is going to help you immensely.
Do a reality check. Forget being a PM at a hedge fund. You say you want an economics degree, or a CS or math degree, but are you even aware that these three are vastly different? There are no grades that anyone deserves... you just bust your ass give your situation (inevitable personal situations all considered) and make the best out of it.
Since you shit on your program so bad here... ("a joke", "fairly useless", "nonexistent alumni network", "appalling placement", etc) let me tell you that even people who graduate from "target" schools have their own gripes. Unless you went to a university set up by a con artist, I very much doubt everything you've listed is true. And I can't help but think that even if you studied engineering at your school, you'd have the same complaints.
TL;DR: Some poster on this forum once said that, in order to survive, you need three things: Fortitude, Absence of self-pity, and Acceptance. You sound like you are full of fortitude, but don't have the last two.
I apologize that you feel that way.
I can assure you everything I said is true. My school was well-known for its engineering and liberal-arts programs, not at all for business. I didn't know this until the last minute. As I said, this is my fault, and there's no going back. I came from a poor background, not sure what you want me to say here. I would rather not discuss my childhood here as it is of no importance. The school I went to covered my financial aid almost entirely, that was the main decision point unfortunately. Do I wish I could go back and change it? Yes. And I said as much already.
Everything I stated was a fact, and I wrote this simply in order to give a background of who I am. I'm not here for pity, I could care less if anyone "felt sorry" for me or anything like it. I'm asking for advice, and its my belief that you can't get any without painting an accurate picture of who you are and what you've done so far.
As for the degrees, perhaps you aren't aware that in order to become a quantitate analyst of any decent calibre while in school, its extremely helpful to be a CS and math major? They are hardly unrelated. My programming skills are amateur I assure you but without math, CS is much harder. Economics is simply an interest, something I have a passion for. These degrees can be very much related. Economics requires stats and math as well, which plays off the concepts taught in math and CS majors nicely. I'm not trying to belittle you at all, as I do not know you nor know of your level of education, but it sounds like you are the one who isn't sure of what exactly these educations entail. As I wasn't until I started doing some serious research into what I had been missing for 4 years.
I cannot lie and say my situation isn't depressing. But I try not to let it get me down. There are those days, most definitely. This thread, however, is not for that reason. I'm simply trying to figure out where to go next. I apologize if the way I ask questions isn't agreeable to you. I agree very much with that las statement, and I try to live my life like that every day. This thread simply exists to get ideas, nothing more, nothing less.
I'm just surprised he isn't speculating about writing the CFA, FRM, CAIA exams.
To OP: If you cannot get a job with your current bachelors degree, a Masters will not help (getting a second bachelors is dumb). The Masters degree now puts you onto the next level it makes you appear overqualified for entry bachelor positions but yet your lack of experience makes you under qualified for Masters positions. Close your eyes and imagine the caliber your classmates in a masters program will be. Many will be coming off of 2 internships in undergraduate and possibly 1-2 years work experience. You having no experience will fall short of recruiters expectations and they will choose your classmates over you. Best advice I can say is get anything, something in finance for a few years then use a Masters/MBA to "re-brand" yourself after this experience. Few examples: Every large company has internal treasury departments, many of which do FX-hedging. Or possibly get on with a local utility company or government in their economics forecasting departments. If you have not found something widen your net until it works. You wouldn't be posting asking about advice and complaining about unemployment if you were "Goldman" material.
Have actually somewhat started studying for the CFA, although I cannot afford to take it at the moment. Savings are dwindling, hence why I am trying to find a direction to go regarding work and education.
This is something I've considered doing as well. A job I was interview for was actually a treasury analyst role, although during the interview process for the job they actually changed the requirements for experience from entry level to 3-5 years. So that went away. But I will continue to look at opportunities in that area. What you said really is something that scares me, and that is being "over-qualified", as it seems to happen to many in this economy. I will continue to look for entry level analyst positions of all types. I don't think I am GS material, never did, probably never will be. Not really worried about that.
Thanks so much for the advice, I appreciate it.
There are a lot of people studying engineering right now who are going to make mediocre engineers. Fortunately a MechE degree will prepare them for six figure careers as welders and auto mechanics.
You know what's not in bubble territory right now, is related to finance, and offers a pretty darned good career? Actuarial Science.
Good point. The actuarial science class at my school was two kids. Two. One of them was also one of the more beautiful girls in my school, and if you just bumped into her on the street you'd have no idea that her IQ was likely at least 15% higher than yours. Crazy.
But I've always been led to believe that with that kind of qualification, you're really relegated to insurance work, or something like that? To be honest I didn't know anything about it at all till about a year ago. What is the career path for someone in that field generally?
Wearing a pink tie to an interview might be a dealer breaker
F**k the naysayers. Don't even waste your time on them. Seriously. You already know you're in a bad position, and you need people who are on your side. If they don't think you have hope, it's a reflection of their own limited knowledge and abilities. There's always going to be some old hag telling you it can't be done. "IT", whatever it is, can usually be done if you're willing to try. Also, the hags sometimes come in the form of 17 year old geeks on anonymous forums. Just do what you want and you'll find a way.
MSF programs actually don't like people with a lot of experience. Three years in I learned about them and only a few programs really have an interest in me. MBA programs almost require experience, and yes, if you get an MBA without work experience you are in a weird position. With masters though, you will merely be resetting the entry level recruiting options, and the majority of MSF in finance go in at the analyst level. Plenty of MSF kids crashed and burned in college for whatever reason, and now they're doing great.
GMAT is the key here. So is talking to the schools. Contact the deans of these programs and talk to them directly. They are largely set up for people in your sitution, people switching from a different career, and those without work experience. I was all three of those things and found a way into industry, but it was exhausting and I lost a ton of time...and I'm still in a tier two position, but IDGAF because getting into a good MBA was my real original goal, so I'm good. Thing is, you don't want to lose so much time.
Getting a MSF will also open up a second network for you to pull from. It's funny how people don't care what area of a school you went to, they just care that you went to the same institution. There will always be a few dicks, but mostly people just care about the name. "Oh, you went to XYZ school too? COOL! I did ABC there. What did you do there?" is how the conversation goes, and then you just work from there.
Also look at peripheral programs. MaCC programs are short and sweet and I know quite a few ER associates who went that route. Rutgers has an accounting MBA that places into valuations groups, take a look at that. Texas A&M and Houston are GREAT schools for short programs, both regional and global hiring. Also look abroad if you're inclined (I don't know anything about that though).
Bottom line is that outside of the HYP -> IBD -> PE -> HWS MBA path, there are a huge amount of options, and the bottom line is to be an opportunist. Feel free to contact me at any time, I'm pretty big on paying it forward and helping people who are helping themselves (and who aren't dicks).
Thanks so much, I appreciate it, truly. It seems more and more what I need to do is get myself into a position where I can apply to one of these programs and get accepted. You mentioned talking to the deans of the programs, funny you say that because I was just thinking of doing that. I think that would be extremely helpful. My only concern as far as a master's is concerned is not having the pre reqs...that's the one thing I'd have to find a way to take care of as quickly and cheaply as possible. I might send you a PM. Thanks again.
To be completely honest, I stopped reading at the point you mentioned that your goalpost is getting a P&L generating position at a hedge fund. I'm not intentionally trying to sound like a dick, but I think a decent first step for you might be to get your head out of the clouds.
I'm also not trying to sound like a dick but...thats my ultimate goal, no matter how much work and time it takes. I guess we all go about life in different ways. I like working towards a goal. If you don't that's fine. My head is assuredly not in the clouds. I think you mistake my ambition for certainty. I never said I will be at a fund...I did say I was willing to work to get into that position because its what I want to do. I think that's plenty fair.
why are you using your real name and photo here? I hope you are not impersonating here.
by the way... did you know someone with a last name Meals from your school? While looking at your LinkedIn profile (wasn't hard to find...) I saw this person, and I actually know this person...
I'm not really afraid of anyone "finding me out", as I know nobody from my school is here on this board, and no one that has graduated before me as far as I know. I suppose if you really wanted to find out who I was, you could. But I have nothing to hide. My social media doesn't contain anything real embarrassing. And I know how to use privacy settings. I'll PM you regarding your question.
Dude you need to find Michael Penn at hiremichaelpenn.com and become best friends with him.
Haha I read about that guy. Quite ambitious. I'm sure something will happen for him, there's no way you can go and do all that and not have someone become interested. Hey if it works, it works. You gotta do what you can to stand out I guess.
Unsuccessful job search. Back to school or keep looking? (Originally Posted: 08/14/2011)
I graduated in May 2011 with a B.S. in Finance and I have not found a job yet. I do not have much relevant work experience and have not done any internships. My ideal job in the future would be to become an equity analyst. Should I keep looking for jobs or go back to school to get a MBA and do internships over the next two years?
Are you in at a B-School?
Why didnt you do internships?
If you were good at life, you wouldn't need more school.
Good luck getting into a decent MBA program with no work experience. What the fuck did you do for the past 4 years of your life?
Forget about equity research right now. Get yourself a gig thats going to give you some experience and revisit this idea in a few months.
Regardless, Keep looking
So you did absolutely nothing? What do you have on your resume? What would you even talk about during an interview? You better have some damn good smooching skills.
no internships???? why?
equity research is highly competitive. even back office work will be hard to find if you don't have any internships. you wont get into any MBA programs without any work experience (at least no MBAs that will get you into equity research), so that's not an option either.
where did you go to school? what was your GPA like? if no internships, then what did you do while at school???
Check his profile stats, maybe they're accurate.
What school and GPA
Back to School Gameplan (Originally Posted: 08/22/2011)
I quit my back-office job a few weeks to go do a Msc. in Finance at Bocconi in Italy. I would have done some sort of "Thanks WSO!" thread, but that might have to wait until I actually get an offer somewhere. I'll probably end up doing a few posts on why you don't want to join the back-office at some point.
Anyhow, throughout the copious hours of free time I had in my previous job, I decided a global macro fund was what I eventually wanted to work for. The emphasis on risk management, willingness to consider the broadest universe of investments possible and intellectual honesty of the best managers makes the field very appealing to me. Trading rates or fx seems to be the straightest shot to a macro fund but I'm not sure how good my odds are at getting a job like that coming out of Bocconi. Apparently, getting near perfect grades is a prerequisite to London banks giving you a shot and I'm something of an idiot savant in math. I got a C- in Calc I in college; an 800Q on the GRE and 59th percentile on the GRE's quant part (probably just a bad day but still). The only thing I got going for me in all the classes I have coming up is being highly motivated and actually liking market finance.
My question is whether you guys think I should be shooting for some other job coming out of school. FX/rates sales? Would the NY Fed or World Bank be interested in somebody like me? Corp treasury might be another option but I'm not sure the transition to a macro fund is feasible with that kind of background. Any suggestions are much appreciated.
First of all, congrats man! I know you'll do well in school.
You'll find something. You're a sharp guy. And you're no longer a back office mongoloid! So that has to feel pretty good.
Good grief it does.
I'm sure you know about ANT's MSFHQ, hopefully he'll see this thread. I'm sure he can give you some insight into where you can go from there.
Congrats buddy. "I'll probably end up doing a few posts on why you don't want to join the back-office at some point." Could I help out with those, because I was also not a fan?
Not in a position to answer your question though. Have fun in school, Italy should be awesome...
First off, congrats and good luck. Second, make sure you don't fall asleep. As sensible as your choice was, you will still likely encounter interviewers who look at you skeptically ("can't stick out the grunt work, do we really want to invest time/resources into him?" sort of attitude) once you are back out on the job hunt. Start crafting your story today as to where you want to be down the line. The fund management fairy is what everybody is chasing, but remember that in order to get to that point you have to be a valuable asset for a person or organization where your skills can be useful.
As for job ideas, I know it is not what you are looking for but perhaps a more sales oriented role? As in client facing. I only mention it because as much as I hate standardized testing there does seem to be some correlation between your scores, your ability to express yourself eloquently and a possibly less quantitative, more client oriented role. Just a thought. Often times what you want to do and what you would actually be the best at are not the same thing. The WB/IMF/Fed type organizations are definitely a reasonable goal. Keep the old caveat in mind, however, that if you want to be in the U.S. or London for that matter, you are going to have to really pound the pavement as far as networking.
Again, congrats and good luck.
Thanks guys. I'm definitely planning on picking up some VBA and paper trading eurodollar futures if I can find the time. I thought I had 5k saved up to trade but the euro just won't crack and there's no way I can spare that money to stake myself now.
It's funny Midas, a buddy of mine told me not to fall asleep when I landed my BO job (It took me a day or two to realize what I had gotten myself into). Good advice to be sure.
Congrats man, I'd also be interested if you did some sort of blog/regular post type thing about studying finance in Italy
Grats!
:( you will b missed
I'm sure they have interwebs in Italy.
Congrats goodbread! Good to see you are getting closer to that global macro dream
I'm definitely considering some sort of blog (on WSO of course). My posting frequency will probably go way down but that's probably a good thing.
Well done sir!
awesome program, awesome city. First 6 months is a bootcamp but it gets better and there is no uni in USA that can compete with nightlife of milan / models of milan plus location of milan (lakes in 1 hour, nice and south france train in 2,5 hours etc.)
Back to school? (Originally Posted: 01/01/2013)
After spending years immersing myself in the intellectual crevice that is a business major, it is finally coming to an end. My brain hasn't been properly exercised since high school, when my math education topped out in AP Calc my junior year. In exchange, I've had a pretty easy ride, a good GPA, and some wall street internship experience. I imagine a lot of you pursuing the finance track feel the same, which leads me to the question: Do any of you intend to pursue more education later in life? Maybe something in the STEM field, perhaps, or a doctorate.
I wish this didn't need saying, but no, an MBA doesn't count.
A friend from my graduating class said he wanted to study something like engineering after his analyst stint. I told him he was doing it wrong. You do engineering undergrad, get into finance, then go for an MBA, not undergrad business to finance to Master's in engineering.
Lateral from industry or back to school? (Originally Posted: 06/04/2015)
Looking for some input because this board seems to be pretty helpful. I have been working for the past few months as a financial analyst at a large well known tech company (think, Apple, Intel, Cisco, ). I graduated within the last year, and this is my first job out of college. Frankly, corporate finance is not for me, and I am looking to get out. I am debating between sticking it out for a few more years here to get enough experience for an MBA program, applying to a MSF program, or try to lateral to IBD directly.
-I have a 3.93 from a highly ranked school (non-target though)
-Took GMAT last year and got 720
-Most of my internship connections are from a non-finance hub city, so I would potentially have to start fresh networking if I wanna work in a city with a large concentration financial service firms.
Do I have a realistic shot at IBD post graduation without more school? Just looking for some suggestions as I try to plan a course of action. I would rather not throw more money down the drain on more schooling if possible!
Will be very tough being out of college you need to network in
Your best bet is to start netorking with local boutiques. Possible to get into an EB or BB, but not as likely since you have already been working (though it is possible with the right amount of work). I'd start gathering a list of boutiques in your current city and/or cities you want to work and reach out to them.
Yeah, I would be perfectly happy working at a local boutique. I was not really considering BBs as an option at this point.
Sounds like you are in tech, and maybe even in the Bay Area. It might make sense to look into working for a smaller, growing company, perhaps a pre-IPO company? That would certainly give you more exposure to more activities, and you might even be able to meet some of the bankers who are sure to be courting your company. If you are interested in business school, switching into a job that gives you a chance to get more involved in a company's growth wouldn't hurt either, and would put you on a more-traveled path to investment banking. IF, and this is a big IF, that's really what you want to do.
Would it be silly to go to bschool only to return to banking? (Originally Posted: 03/09/2010)
If one was at a BB and went to a top bschool only to return to a tier 1 elite boutique as an associate, would that be roundabout and silly? I'm not sure how lateralling works but I'm under the impression that it's difficult to move among banks at the junior level. I'm thinking of eventually entering PE while I'm still young, but I want to have a tier 1 elite boutique on the resume.
Thanks.
Most banks require you to get an MBA to advance in your career. So many bankers have them, your kinda like the odd duck out if you don't have one. I have heard (from a VP @DB) that BB are making more of an effort to keep their best analysts and make them associates, but I do not expect that to change for elite boutiques. Transferring at the junior level is not difficult, many people switch firms after 2-3 years.
if you transfer after 2-3 years, then... would you be coming in as a 3rd year analyst looking for an associate promotion? I'm thinking about laterals after 1 year but I figure that would burn bridges/look bad?
To be honest, I don't know what your official title would be if you transfer from IB to IB after two years. I guess you would be considered a 2nd year analyst, but you would not be guaranteed a promotion to Associate. Most go to get the MBA after two years of IB because it ensures the promotion of Associate. I would think most people who go IB to IB would be transferring to better BB and setting themselves up for admission to a top 5 MBA. If you transfer from IB to PE after two years you simply become a PE analyst and are on the bottom level because there are so few undergrads that go directly into PE. Where would you be lateral to after 1 year? PE firms pre-MBA usually require two years of IB experience You can maybe switch with only 1, but you'll be up against candidates that have two years experience, also I don't think it will look good if you jump ship after only one year. Firms do not like people who constantly jump ship because of the cost to training and recruitment.
Returning to Graduate School ...Tracks in Private Equity (Originally Posted: 08/13/2010)
Hi Everyone,
First and foremost I would like to introduce myself, I am new on this forum. I am 23 years old, graduated undergrad from a small but well known college in the Boston area with a GPA of 3.40. I have been working for about 6 months now in an operations role. Although the role is monotonous and intellectually unstimulating, it has rekindled my burning passion for Private Equity! Needless to say, I am looking to break into the industry. During my junior, I interviewed for an internship at a boutique PE firm, ( I didn't even know what PE was back then!). It is only recently that I realized what sort of opportunity I had.
Anyway, I am considering attending graduate school this fall to get back into the ring, build a strong GPA, network, and break in that way. I understand for the bigger firms, it's usually 2 years in IB before you have a chance in landing a PE pos. But I am really looking to work for a boutique. I actually am in love with one particular firm (the one I interviewed with in Jr. year), but obviously am open to others.
I wanted to know how conventional (or unconventional) the tracks are for PE, particularly for the boutiques. I knew a former college friend of mine that worked at a PE firm right out of college. And as I mentioned above, I interviewed for an internship at a small boutique so I'm not sure how formal their hiring process is. If someone can please please shed some light on this I would really appreciate it.
Would someone be kind enough to do a Capital IQ search for Private Equity firms based in the Boston area and San Francisco for me? Thank you in advance for any insights and advice and I apologize for any repeated questions.
Any help would be appreciated! =)
Back to School: Comp Sci? (Originally Posted: 02/01/2012)
So I didn't survive a round of layoffs from my firm, which in retrospect isn't the worst because I don't think finance is for me. (Still sucks though)
I graduated with a degree in economics from a semi-target, and I'm considering going back there to complete a computer science degree. My school offers a 20 month program with a co-op for prior degree holders.
I really think this is a good move but I wanted to get some feedback from the most critical, elitist, hate filled forum on the internet.
What do you think?
Are you paying for this degree
I think it's worth it. CS grads are the hottest commodities right now and at least for the next few years. Too much demand.
I'm bored so I'll just delve into this here argument. You can definitely learn computer science on your own and to be honest that would be the real way to learn the subject in its initial stages. Programming is more about thinking about problems correctly, the syntax is learn on the fly and not really the key issue.
Get to know what lists, arrays, booleans, floating point numbers, etc. are and how to solve basic computational problems before you get into paying for an introduction. Those intro courses in my opinion are a waste of money. If/when you want to get more intense with it you could take some of the more difficult courses depending where your interests go, but outright paying for an intro to programming is not a good move in your situation.
A major in mathematics on the other hand would be great and the proof writing and logic you will gain along the way is a lot more transferable to comp sci than the other way round.
Math major is useless. Major in Comp Eng or Chem Eng.
Math major is useless in 2012....that's pretty far up there in the dumbest things I've read on this site. You do realize that mathematics majors move into any of the fields you mentioned right? A few electives in programming or engineering and a math major could get the same job opportunities...........How the hell could a math major be useless rofl, wow, just wow. I can make the list for why it's true but I don't want to insult your intelligence any more than I have and I'm hopeful that you know how to use Google.
^ In the age of practical skills, yes, a math major is useless. Forget Harvard, Princeton, Caltech, and Stanford Math. Let's consider average schools. What do you think, most companies recruiting would be interested in the Math major over the Computer Science or Accounting major? You insult your own intelligence by arguing that Math is a useful major, my friend.
Tell that to the investment banks that offered me jobs last year. No Comp Sci or Accounting majors at my firm!
But I guess since you aren't a banker yet, you wouldn't know any better. You're forgiven.
It's laughable because I think you might be one of the people who thinks that math is equivalent to solving calculus statistics or differential equations all day. Mathematics, however, is not about these basic computation classes. Where most engineering majors end, is where real mathematics begins.
It is logic, it creates an ability to think about issues and tackle them creatively and the skills involved in conjuring infallible proofs are the foundations of computer science. There is a reason why math majors on average have the highest scores on the LSAT, an exam that has absolutely nothing to do with computation, but problem solving is priceless in any field.
@jktecon - Yes I would be paying for the degree but it's a public university so it's relatively inexpensive. My parents would also help out if I needed it.I wouldn't be doing this degree to learn "how to think critically," or improve my problem solving abilities, which is what a math degree would do.
I would do this program for employment purposes. I want to learn a hard skill that will pay the bills.
Well what do you think computer science is outside of problem solving? Are you saying you are too dumb to memorize syntax on your own?
Asshole, I want to use the program to get a good job and a piece of paper saying I am knowledgeable in computer science.
I could have learned everything in my economics program taking books out from the library and studying them on my own time, but somehow I don't think my former employer would have hired me without the degree.
@surferdude: I don't think jtkecon understood what you're looking for.
Ok so what do you think about the program I mentioned?
I think it's a great idea if you're absolutely set on shifting career paths. The co-op would be a great opportunity to do so, Imo.
If you're unsure, this could turn out to an immense waste of time. Imo, if you're unsure, just look for another job.
PS: Are you in Canada?
And I completely understood what you were saying. You're looking for a 12,000 dollar piece of paper and 2 years plus of potential earnings in order to obtain it. But it was more of a declaration seeking approval than a question.
Good luck
Should I go back to school? Help. (Originally Posted: 09/03/2012)
Maybe someone can give me some direction in a tough spot I am in. For the past year I've been looking to leave my current job as a paralegal and go into business. In school I always had aspirations of becoming a lawyer and took "Pre-Law" as a major. BIG MISTAKE. I realized after two years that this is definitely not what I want to do and that finance is truly my passion.
Unfortunately I do not know where to go from here. I've been told that the only option I have is to go back to school and get a second undergrad degree in finance/economics/etc.. I've called around and locally (NYC) only a few schools offer 2nd bachelor programs. I was setting my sights on NYU but they are one of the schools that do not offer the program. So far all I have to work with is Fordham and Baruch.
Anyone know what would be the best step for me to take? I welcome any comments you all may have. I truly can't imagine my life this way anymore. I WANT OUT ASAP.
MsF for a finance job, then MBA for a better one.
Why didn't you try to become a lawyer instead of just a paralegal?
Why would you do another undergrad? I think it would be a better idea to do an MA in finance. It will teach you all the technical stuff and give an opportunity to network while you are in school. Most importantly, it would be a graduate degree, not another undergrad. It will take some time to get through GRE/GMAT and application etc. Are you still at school? Or working? Many MA in finance don't require work experience, so that might be helpful. Besides, you would still have an option to do an MBA later if you will have a need for a switch in career or to get a better brand name on your resume.
A lot of people do unrelated majors in undergrad. Then they just go to get their Masters in business school. Get an MSF or an MBA. That will help you.
Heeheehee! Whatever advisor you have, is not an HR person!
I will give you a couple options:
2, Do the CFA. You can still register for December Level 1 exam, and you'll have a CFA Level 1 credential by February 2013. You can use this to get a job in Finance, and then get an MBA a few years down the road (or finish your CFA levels 2 and 3) to solidify your background as a business person. Of course, CFA is a little tough to study for, and harder still since you didn't study business in undergrad and you'll have just 3 months to study. If you're willing to work at it nights and weekends, you can do it! If you're not sure, apply for MSF programs for Fall 2013 at the same time.
CFA Level I is by no means a golden ticket. You might be able to scrape out a BO role with it. OP should focus on MSF and maybe do CFA concurrently.
what kind of college offers 'pre-law' as a major...
Thanks for all the replies. Essentially what I can see myself doing is financial advisement. Honestly, I had no one give me advice in school so like a dumb teen I thought doing pre-law was what was necessary for law school. I was really close to looking into another undergrad because I didn't have the best grades in undergrad, 2.9 GPA (you can tell I really didn't like the material) and a counselor told me to just stick it out instead of changing majors in the end of soph. year.
In that case, a CFP might be more up your alley. I'm not an expert on that certification, but I know that with it, people will feel confident letting you manage their money, and they probably won't ask you what you studied in undergrad. If I were you, the most money-efficient way to get from here to there would be to 1) start studying for the CFP exams, and 2) get a job, any job, at a private financial management firm. A lot of these places are looking for salesmen-types, rather than requiring you to do hardcore math/finance. If not, I would become a teller at a bank where they have an investment management division, like Wells Fargo.
I think this route is more accessible, and you will likely make good money (not ridiculous money like Investment Bankers) anywhere in the country.
If you want to do financial advising this might be up your alley http://graduate.bentley.edu/ms/financial-planning alternatively it's not too hard to look at decent firms which have FA programs, there are always broker positions on Craigslist.
Going back to undergraduate b-school for OCR (Originally Posted: 10/24/2013)
Would this be wise?
Where are you right now?
Holy shit, some modicum of info would help. Age, spot in life, career goals, etc.
My response was the PC version of this.
I have almost 2 years of completely unrelated experience, and I have a non-business major with a good GPA and a business minor.
...
So you want to redo ~4 years of undergraduate work, at a place full of people ~5 years younger than you on the outside chance that you can have the privilege of 100 hour weeks and zero job security? Get an MSF.
Unless you are talking about going back to undergraduate and only taking 1 class or something like that just to be a student to go to OCR, go for graduate school. MBA or MSF and go to OCR there.
Surprised your alma mater lets you get OCR access after having graduated 2 years ago. Since you're not that far removed from undergrad, I think you should go for it if the firms you are interested in come to campus. Whether or not you get interviews is a totally different issue.
As you very well know, you can't get into a top b-school without solid work experience, so in your case you need a good name firm on your resume and then go from there. I actually believe that your first job out of college is one of the most important, and if you miss the OCR boat it can cost you dearly.
Best of luck.
Going back to school for recruiting (Originally Posted: 12/04/2014)
How many here have gone back to their schools for recruiting after starting out as an analyst? I've noticed at my school some people come back and some don't. Is it something you simply volunteer for or do you have to be selected?
meow
Bump. Anyone?
Back to school for recruiting (Originally Posted: 12/25/2014)
For anyone in ths forum who's returned to their schools for recruiting after starting as an analyst/associate: was it something you had to be selected for or simply volunteered? If the former, how do you get selected?
At my bank, it depends on the proximity. If it's within driving distance, as many people can go (if they don't have work to do). If it's a target school and is out of driving distance, then we send 3-4 volunteers. It depends more on who's busy and not busy rather than any particular merit.
They kind of just asked around and grabbed whoever was free. It's probably different for every bank, so why don't you ask a few older analysts that went to the same school?
Also, it's fun the first time around, then it becomes kind of a pain (but still kind of fun), because you still have the same amount of work, except you just spent a couple hours asking kids to regurgitate stuff they memorized the night before...
Should I wait on going back to school? (Originally Posted: 03/08/2016)
I'm less than a year removed from a non-target university with a low GPA (2.9) , 22-24 years old. A couple of months before graduating I was able to secure a job at a commercial lender as a credit analyst. I got promoted to an underwriter after 8 months (underwriting floorplan and real estate, $2-$50M) and I'm currently working in that role which I enjoy. I'm bringing in OK money in a low COL area ($60K, all in)
A few months after starting in the credit analyst role, I enrolled in an MSF program at a small, local university that is unknown. I hated my previous role and thought an MSF would help me get into something better. I ended up getting promoted shortly after entering the program. After one semester, I'm starting to doubt my decision. The university is overpriced ($1300/credit hour) and it's hard to see how it would benefit me.
I do want to go back to school, as it is a personal goal of mine. I feel that most of the time, a graduate degree will pay off..most of the Managers/AVP's in my office have MBA's. Some of the managers are young (26). I'm realizing that in order for me to move up in the company and gain an advantage, or to move into a higher role at a different company, a masters degree would be beneficial. In another 1-1.5 years, I'm aiming for a significant pay bump, or promotion. I was going to decide between:
1) Dropping the MSF program and continuing to work and gain experience (I should also note that I don't want to wait 3-more years to get an MBA, when I would have more experience. The best MBA program in my area is a Top 40-50 program.)
2) Drop the MSF program, attempt to enroll in a master's program at a more well-known university
It's too early for me to get an MBA, but in the commercial lending/credit industry it seems like you are solid as long as you have one w/ good experience.
Advice?
Qui magnam iusto molestiae. Ex eos omnis autem in eligendi.
Aperiam corrupti neque quis aut voluptatibus doloremque sapiente. Odio rerum aut distinctio. Aut officiis et iusto perspiciatis laboriosam aut. Rerum earum similique ex quibusdam nihil esse officiis. Et alias earum quo et tempora ipsum. Aut quibusdam suscipit doloribus ullam voluptas qui.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Adipisci soluta pariatur laborum. Numquam dolor nihil quam vero.
Soluta harum hic eos voluptatum eligendi. Quas laboriosam facere labore et. Tenetur sed ut qui quo ea. In veritatis temporibus beatae unde autem error recusandae. Sunt quisquam assumenda autem corporis cumque dolorem magnam tempore. Iure veniam qui nisi impedit.
Doloremque occaecati qui nobis consectetur. Qui harum sunt cupiditate quam ut. Tempora aut consequuntur labore exercitationem. Qui iste laboriosam et laborum ut incidunt quidem. Ipsa eum magni vitae nulla dolores voluptatum sint reiciendis. Dolorem dolorum adipisci delectus atque reprehenderit in doloribus.
Est est eveniet placeat esse tempore repellat atque. Optio maxime qui non. Iure repudiandae sint deserunt similique repellat vitae. Deserunt dolores nam ducimus inventore voluptatem iusto voluptatem.
Explicabo soluta consequatur illo voluptas. Harum ipsa est ad cumque provident qui. Quasi quaerat et aliquid illum. Numquam voluptatum placeat mollitia aut repellat.
A ipsam et nobis mollitia vitae rerum. Et quia maxime quia et eligendi explicabo. Qui officiis dolorum in et id architecto rerum omnis.
Adipisci quis aperiam quas et qui ab optio. Sit eveniet ipsum praesentium odio. Ipsam voluptatem reiciendis qui iusto.
Unde maiores qui alias quia dicta. Aut iusto voluptas optio voluptatem ea.
Natus perferendis consequatur repellendus ut labore ad perspiciatis. Nesciunt consequatur tenetur aut.
Libero cumque at inventore qui. Dolore ex possimus odio a. Voluptates necessitatibus quia sunt assumenda nobis.
Tenetur culpa qui recusandae consequuntur. Ab aperiam sit repellat deserunt. Sit voluptatibus est similique.
Asperiores voluptatum fugiat ea vero cum. Odio quo eos omnis dolor soluta qui sunt non. Aut possimus ut et quasi est maiores. Occaecati sint vero rerum quis officia vel est.
Harum vitae laborum sunt cum ut alias qui. Molestias ut vitae odit rerum.
Iure et sit non a provident necessitatibus. Numquam consequuntur doloremque aut nihil molestias aut. Ab facere officia ut dolorum libero cupiditate minima. Ut accusantium est minima sed inventore soluta error debitis.
Itaque asperiores consequatur sit quae aut ut architecto. Cum dolores aperiam perspiciatis laborum quisquam. Aperiam minus quisquam provident rerum. Deserunt blanditiis repellat sint dolor. Voluptatem dolor adipisci repellat aut repellendus at.
Est alias est vitae. Maxime soluta et natus sunt quod veritatis. Minus provident architecto adipisci cupiditate exercitationem cum voluptatem ex. Perferendis est deleniti dicta beatae quod. Sed animi dolore at. Est provident est debitis accusantium.
Doloribus consequuntur qui sint voluptas est vero fugit. Expedita neque labore rerum. Est ut similique a reiciendis voluptatem. Quidem sunt repellendus consectetur repellendus ab culpa eos.