Going to China vs Staying in Europe
I try to make some of the most important decisions in my life, and I need your help. I am entering my senior year and I my trying to figure out what I am going to do with my life. My end goals are either becoming a Managing Director at a PE fund or a Partner in a Big 4 accounting firms.
I am 21 years old , my BA is in European Economic Studies with a 3.0-3.3 GPA, in a greek university, so to achieve my goals I would need to do a Master in Finance or Accounting.
My dilemma is the following:
Either stay in Europe, enroll in a master program in continental Europe and hope to get hired by an investment bank, asset management or big four company. My second option is to take a full ride scholarship and do my master in China and hope to find a job there.
My main concern with staying in Europe is that is speak fluently only two languages Greek and English while I speak German only at a basic level. So the language barrier will always be a problem in any EU country and I don't know how far I can go just with English.At the same time the same problem arises in China as my Chinese are non-existent along with all the cultural barriers like guanxi and the bias against foreigners.The advantage that I have in the second case is the scholarship. I could rely in the two years long Chinese lessons and the total four years of financial support to build up my Chinese further and network my way through. But I don't know if four years are enough to overcome my disadvantages.
Those were my thoughts.Any opinion and advice that can help me solve untangle all of the above mess is more than welcome!
Is your second option realistic? Do you have an offer or can you get an offer for a Master fully covered with scholarship in China? If so, I'd go for it.
The language can be learned,the experience is more valuable and you won't be betraying your country by going to work for those who destroyed it and extracted every last resource, youth included.
Currently I Do Not Have The Scholarship In My Hands. I Have Come In Contact With Several Professors At Several Universities In China, Including In Shanghai And Beijing And I Have Taken A Positive Response From Them To Sponsor Me To Take The Scholarship. It Isn't Easy Under Any Circumstances To Take Such A Scholarship, But The Response From Universities And Teachers Until Now Was Positive. With That Being Said , I Don't View China As A North Korea On Steroids Nor Do I Believe That I Will Betray My Country. I Believe It Is One Of The Greatest Economies In The World With Lots Of Opportunities To Start A Career In Finance.
Ok but why capital each word?
If you don't speak Chinese you can forget about China, all the more given the fact that they don't like white people there and that China is more generally an authoritarian hellhole which uses subversion and online propaganda (see: post above mine) in an attempt to appear as a modern and developed nation.
Stay focused on your goal: finance. You can't fight two wars at the same time. If you're really interested in Asia, you'll be able to find investment banks and funds in London with an ASEAN or even Chinese geographic focus.
wow prospect you had it figured out totally. China is not a developed nation and we eat rats. you happy?
I couldn't care less about whether or not you eat rats, bats or human embryos. My point is that China contests the United States' hegemony by trying to extend its political and economic influence through subversion, corruption, hacking and debt traps (especially in African countries). China has been conducting cyber-espionage and industrial espionage campaigns notably in Australia and the US since several years, and I'm not even talking about their expansionism into the South China Sea or the blatant human rights violations committed against the Uighurs or the Tibetans.
There's no hate in what I say, but you simply can't pretend that the CCP is not an enemy of freedom and free thought.
I wonder if those keywords will get detected by the dictatorial regime constantly monitoring every Chinese citizen's Internet traffic:
Free Tibet The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 The Tiananmen Square Massacre The Anti-Rightist Struggle The Great Leap Forward The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution Human Rights Democratization Freedom Independence Multi-party system Taiwan Formosa Republic of China Tibet Dalai Lama Falun Dafa The Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region Nobel Peace Prize Liu Xiaobo Winnie the Pooh
Congrats, everything you wrote is completely wrong. - you can get by at an early level without knowing much Chinese - they do like white people, a lot - not a hellhole to live or work in - investment banks and funds located in US/EU with a Chinese focus aren't going to be doing anything interesting in terms of deals, you need to be in country
Chinese here. I'd recommend you staying in Europe because most foreigners are not able to get to a level where they can conduct business in Mandarin in just 4 years.
If your goal is to do PE or any finance job, forget about working in China as a non-ethnic Chinese. That being said, you're interested in China and are ok with doing any type of jobs, you're more than welcomed to visit and study in China.
Assuming you're a an average above-average candidate, your chances of building a career in China are slim to none. I would leave China to the entrepreneurs and the extremely well-connected. But the scholarship is probably worth considering, and the life experience.
The line of thinking from other posters does put into question the value of learning Mandarin for school aged kids. There is the cultural aspect but I think a lot of parents feel language is good for future business prospects. If unless you are highly proficient (beyond just making a fool of myself for laughs - which is me with Mandarin), would some other language be more useful? To me, reading Chinese characters is a whole other level of difficult.
Also, if we read the geopolitical tea leaves (with COVID being part of that; but also a potential decoupling, not total but partial), will that impact demand for Mandarin language learning in the US?
Real time, schools are closed so can’t tell. Also, the hard trend is China will rise, so political whims are not good long term thinking (ie Trump), but one should re-evaluate convention wisdom because there are opportunity costs (ie learning Spanish, Hindi, etc).
For context, I was very much interested in China earlier in my career. 10-15 years later, I realize I’ll never live there/Asia (I’m married so takes two to tango), so my limited speaking helps with interpersonal relations but that’s it.
Considering if you learned German or Japanese in the 1940's, it was great for business for the next 100 years, and if you learned Russian during the cold war, it has been good for business... I'm sure that no matter what goes on in the future, Mandarin will be a useful skill to have for business.
Take a read through this thread, a lot of perspectives from non-mainlanders trying to survive in Asia: https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/the-future-of-hong-kong-high-fin…
For your background, climbing finance in China is going to be really difficult. What scholarship is it? If it's Schwarzman or something then there's some hope, but even then you will likely eventually get pushed to a more corporate role rather than finance.
Also mind I ask, if both Europe and China presents language barriers then where are you from...?
The man is from Greece
![https://acegif.com/wp-content/uploads/greece-flag.gif][https://acegif.c…]
I Am Talking About The Chinese Government Scholarship. It Isn't As Prestigious As The Schwarzman Scholars But It's A Really Good Scholarship. In Europe In Order To Solve Your Language You Must Speak English, French,German, Spanish And Italian. My German Language Skills Are Nowhere Near Business Level So I Fear The London Is My Only Option.
I would definitely recommend you visit China first before making any decision, especially if you are not going to big tier 1 cities like Shanghai and Beijing which are more international, but instead second, third tier cities like Chengdu, Wuhan, etc. Which city you go makes a huge difference, and you need to make sure you click with the culture and lifestyle.
That said, your job opportunities are limited to international firms (which there are plenty in tier one cities though), and you will have close to zero chance get into state-owned companies or GSEs. Local Chinese firms will likely be tough too but it can vary.
My China 2.0 trip (I visited Beijing, Nanjing, Shanghai-although not enough time there, Hangzhou, Suzhou-prettiest girls reputation, HK) would be Qingdao-beer/German influence, Dalian-culture and fusion with Japan/Korea, Yunnan (Shangri-la), Guilin-scenery, Xian-terra-cotta soldiers although I saw in museum already, and Chengdu-with a river boat cruise on the Yangtze.
I mentioned my Japan 2.0 trip in another post.
Without actually visiting the China 2.0 cities, Qingdao and Dalian intrigue me (2nd tier cities I think I might be interested in living for a couple years) They are coastal, I believe the air is cleaner. And they have an unique culture.
Most Chinese cuisine I’m a fan of (I live in SF). Check out the “8 great cuisines of China.” Most US bigger cities have the Guangdong/HK (Fukken fried rice, dim sum, noodle soups), Sichuan (Spicy), and more and more Shandong (some spicy, kinda hard to remember for me what they famous for), Beijing (lots of meat and dumplings), Hunan places (I know they have Hunan chicken but never tried). Taiwan did get a fusion of the many cuisines due to the retreat of the Nationalists during the civil war.
Anyways, what I’m also getting at is, you can disagree with a national government’s policies but don’t shit on the people or culture. Geopolitics is a long game but is also not normally played by ordinary people.
Solid comment.
Fwiw, sometimes when I read comments --- especially the ones about politics that are posted on this forum --- I doubt the intellectual capacity of some. I'm obviously not referring to your comment.
Not only is geopolitics a long game, it can also be extremely instigating and confusing: I would recommend actual experience and deep research before you reach conclusions. If you only read WSJ, the Economist, which happens to my fav newspaper who has been developing a habit of fucking China over the articles, or worse Fox or CNN, you are better off hold your opinion a little bit longer before you draw conclusions.
Thank You For Your Advice. That Was Exactly What I Was Thinking About My Job Opportunities In China. I Am Thinking If It Is Possible To Get An Accounting Degree, Work In The Audit/Corporate Finance Department (I Have No Idea If There Is Any Demand For Those Jobs In China ) And Then Move Over To Finance.
There is huge demand for audit and finance professionals but there is also a ton of qualified people. The markets are very crowded in China. Plenty of western-educated Chinese students come back with full proficiency in both Mandarin and English. What's your key competitive advantage over those students? Are you able to work in Mandarin? Do you go to a target school? How many degrees do you have? It's actually tough to break into high finance in China and there are a ton of competent local students there still struggling to do so. Keep in mind that you need companies to sponsor you to get work visas and stay in China. Gotta prove you're better than everyone else by a lot.
That being said, there are a ton of opportunities in other areas where you might have an advantage, like translators.
Chinese culture is great. And China will continue to be a major influencer on the global stage for the rest of our generation. Learning Mandarin therefore is of big potential help to your career.
Careers for foreigners in China are often not so great. There are plenty of very talented, hard working, hyper-intelligent locals, and every single one of them knows the language and culture better than you ever will, even if you were to put in a solid 5 years of full-time study. If you want to make it you'll need to bring something unique to the table and likely do so under the flag of an international company. There is no point working for a Chinese organizations. They suck, will treat you in dehumanizing ways and won't pay well. If you're offering your services to an international company, that could work, but you would need both Mandarin fluency and something really unqieu that is unavailable within China. That's a tall order my friend.
Summary: Getting a masters degree in China is a wonderful idea, because you will gain language and cultural skills and familiarize yourself with the new global powerhouse. Europe is damn near geriatric in comparison. You'll have a great time and make lots of friends. It's a wonderful way to spend a year. An opportunity of a lifetime in fact.
But don't pin your hopes on a long-term career in China, when there's so many others who can perform the same job better, for less, and navigate the local polticis better than you ever will.
Southeast Asian here... If the China deal doesn't work out, you are always welcome to try out other Asian countries. Southeast Asia is growing super fast as a region (we also managed to contain the virus quite well) and we always need the talents. Maybe it's a generalization but I think the region as a whole (especially Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia etc.) is also friendlier to expats than mainland China.
I love Southeast Asia. Really feel the energy in places like Bangkok, Phnom Penh (I’m bad at spelling and for the life of me can’t spell this without looking it up). I have not been to Singapore yet. I would love to do a SEA 2.0 trip itinerary. I’ll do it if we start a new thread. I tried Tom yum soup in 3 countries as a Tom yum soup challenge. I think the fact that SEA is a destination of foreign direct investment (FDI) vs a source also helps with the expat welcoming.
Sure, do a backpack tour in Vietnam as well - starting from the North and all the way to the South. The scenery is very sick - from tall mountains and forests, to the cave listed on the UNESCO, to white desert dunes and tropical beaches. Aside from China and USA I've never been to another country with such a variety of scenic places.
Thank you for your advice Ryan. I haven't thought about the possibilities that southeast Asia offers as a whole because I was so much laser focused. I am really curious if other Asian have a much friendlier approach to foreigners. I will certainly focus on my research on finding out what my opportunities are in this region. If anybody else knows anything about breaking into finance in other countries, please write a comment!
No problem. However, the majority of expats I meet here are in the mid or upper management level. You are better served working in the EU for at least 5 years to build your credentials then you could either ask for a relocation to Southeast Asia, or just apply for work on your own. If you have 8-12 years of experience, then you could aim for a director/partner role. You could work for one of those investment funds which manages investments in the region, consulting firms, or investment banks, or Big 4 accounting firms. Language is a non-issue; you could get by fine with just English.
Strate,
I feel you completely, man. As it happens, I have done my first master at your alma mater (if I assume correctly) in economics and get why you want to try abroad. Try something new, grasp opportunities absent or in ridiculously short supply in Greece. I am about to leave myself to Germany for a (second) master's degree in Frankfurt, hence for all that's worth I have the following to suggest.
Get the Army out of the way. It's a wasted 9 months (12 if you have the connections for the Navy or Air Force), but sooner or later you will be forced to make decisions: promising career offer, or the military and then nothing. Unless you never want to return to Greece or are prepared to pay the Army 8,000 euros on 33 to buy off your service, go to the Army as soon as you can and get this shit out of the way.
I would advise staying in Europe (specifically, EU countries) for three reasons. One, you're an EU citizen. You do not need to deal with visas for universities, apartments, and then with residence permits when you will look for a job thereafter. Second, European languages are easier to learn to C1/C2 level than Mandarin. Third, if you cannot get a scholarship, you can be insured by your mother in Greece and your insurance can be valid in all of the EU with a EUIC.
Learning the local language is inevitable, no matter what you do. It's impossible to reach the C1/C2 level in 1-2 years with the master, so my advice: decide where you wanna settle in, and learn the language in Greece before emigrating. The better your language is, the better your chances.
Now, as a person who is moving to Germany (and having lived there myself for some time) I must also tell you that you must also be happy in whatever country you settle in. I have always wanted to live in Germany for a long time and love the life there, even though the weather sucks and German culture is totally different to ours. Mind these phenomena when you choose a country.
And last remark: economically speaking, most of the EU will get hammered by corona, but for employment opportunities don't just consider Germany or the Netherlands, but also Poland, Romania etc. Much of Eastern Europe has interesting job opportunities, partly because of their own brain drains to the UK, Germany or the Netherlands, partly because of their demographics, but also because of their solid economic growth before corona. When you decide to select a country to emigrate to, bear this, too, in mind.
Good luck!
Greetings from Piraeus, Greece
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