Grad school for Prop Trading recruiting?
If someone went to a shitty undergrad and wants to apply to a top grad school to fix that, which program would give him the highest chance of beginning a prop trading career through on campus recruiting?
When I say "prop" I'm referring to a top-tier firm like Jane St, Group 1, FNYS, Trillium, Quad cap, etc. I assume the era of BB trading jobs are over and S&T is impossible if you are not ivy undergrad and have no experience.
What makes you think you would be successful at trading?
Edit: Do NOT answer with some bullshit along the lines of: "...because I love the markets."
In what world are Trillium and Quad Capital in the same tier as Jane Street?
Programs in Math, CS, and Statistics will help you get interviews.
So would CMU MSCF program work? Or does Ivy still have the edge here (Columbia MFE, etc)?
I always thought it wasn't worth it unless you got T14 (for law school) or a top 15 business school. Thoughts anyone?
prop shops aren't looking for business students, they're looking for bright kids in STEM programs
But do they RECRUIT on campus at any grad schools?
Only a handful of prop shops recruit MFEs actively. MFEs are considered second-tier degrees in prop usually unless the applicant's background was already paired with a reasonably technical undergraduate major.
MFE's place very strongly into S&T desks, I don't know where you heard otherwise.
Any master's degree/Ph.D (Whether it be engineering, physics, math etc...) is going to require 10x the amount of effort of any undergrad. Just having one of those proves you can work very hard, teach yourself, and actually have a clue about what you studied. If you get one of these, you should have no problem finding a good job. *That's what they say anyway. I'm inclined to think balls and determination count for a lot more in life.
A STEM graduate degree is a really nice complement to a STEM undergrad. There are certain things that you can learn to do OK in four years that you can really master with two more.
As a guy with a CS degree and some undergrad math courses, I was OK working with guys with PhDs rolling out linear algebra and large operators, but they always spoke a little too fast for me to get much more than what needed to happen in the code I was working on. If you spend two years focusing exclusively on stats, linear algebra, convex optimization, and economic modeling, you get a lot better at this stuff- better than you just get through experience. And you get to the point where you can add to the discussion on 70% of what they're saying, rather than the 25-30% you were working on.
And finally this advice is for someone like me who is reasonably ambitious and reasonably driven- I can put in 70 hour weeks if I have to- but I'm not trying to take over the world or earn 8 figures. Someone willing to work harder than me and can devote the time to understanding Ito's Lemma and Feynman-Katz while working full time and not having an exam hanging over their head doesn't need an MFE. But take a long hard look at Feynman-Katz before you say that this stuff is easy. Girsanov and Feynman-Katz are probably two of the hardest theorems I will ever learn in my life, and you really need a good 10-15 IQ points on me in the Math department to truly understand them well. This isn't something simple like Calculus or Business Statistics.
forget school, find yourself a mentor and use your money there instead of 6 figures of debt only to land a gig as a trading assistant.
(full disclosure: I'm by no means a professional trader yet, this is just my opinion as one that came from a no name school trying to eventually trade for a living)
How did you become interested in trading? If you know traders, see if they are willing to throw you a bone.
Myself I found a few on EliteTrader after reading and digging through pages and pages. There are mentoring websites you pay for like Dan Sheridan, Tim Sykes, Larry Connors but their expertise comes at a premium.
I have learned more from randoms I ran into than I would ever learn in class. YouTube has plenty. People hate on TastyTrade so be careful drinking their koolaid
My take on MBA is you are purchasing the network and prestige, most banks once they get you into their program will train you up their way after spending years as a trading assistant.
To get into those big names you listed in your first post, i would imagine you need an auditable (is that even a word?) track record of 5 plus years.
Best of luck!
Recruiting for quants at BBs and prop traders at the places you mention is similar enough that path 2 could work for you. That Cmoss guy has no clue what he's talking about (Sorry man, nothing personal, but referring to Tim Sykes as a potential mentor is unacceptable).
I was giving OP examples, by no means would I ever give Timmy my money.
Take whatever you'd spend on tuition and start trading.
Some of my advice here is geared more towards a quant role than a pure trading role. I'm posting here because GoodBread dragged me into this thread based on an old quote. I'm guessing I was trying to convince someone to study Engineering. :)
Take some math classes at a community college. Take a look at UChicago's MS Fin Math coursework requirements if you need an idea of what you need:
http://www-finmath.uchicago.edu/admissions/requirements.shtml#mathemati…
Then see about an MFE. Depending on your grades, Cornell, NYU, UC Berkeley, and CMU may be possibilities.
I don't know the context of my original post so I can't fully reconcile it against my advice here, but the sketch agrees on steps like taking some math courses and maybe doing an MFE or other quantitative grad degree. My guess is that the OP in that thread was shooting a lot higher. If you just want a ho-hum financial engineering job, you just need an MFE. To get into many MFE programs, you just need the math coursework.
You do need a top ~10 program if you go the MFE route, but these programs are easier to get into than undergrad if you are a US citizen. You'd honestly be surprised in some cases. So shoot higher than where you think you're qualified for. Please please please don't do an MFE at University of Phoenix. Or if you do it, don't take out federally insured student loans- my taxes will go up when you can't repay them.
I do also like ANT's advice. Trading has gotten fairly quantitative over the past 5 years, but if you can avoid spending $100K on a degree, you should avoid spending $100K on a degree. Some S&T jobs can still be gotten simply by knowing the market and finding the right person to hire you. This is more true of some of the Chicago firms you mentioned.
@newyork Listen to IP on this one, this is great advice.
Cmoss, I see potential in you to replace me as the advice giver on the forum some day, but be careful. I'm still not sure there's a huge difference between going to these guys to get into trading and attending a Donald Trump seminar because you wanna do commercial real estate. I'm sure a person or two has gotten in that way, but I'm not sure a paid mentorship is the best route.
Just be glad that you're getting called on this by GoodBread and not Bondarb or ArcherVice.
Oh I agree, I should have known better. (i'd like to think there are a few of us still on here that genuinely want to see people succeed)
I think it's important for the OP to understand there are more ways to get into trading than his originally proposed idea. Getting into and IVY league program and landing at a top firm afterwards is an incredibly long shot given his less than optimal past.
Like several of us have said, the best experience he'll get is trading. Grad school won't do much but get him introductions and alumni networks.
I'll go back to the shadows now :)
Well, you would be surprised sometimes. Hell, I got in. :) I'm also pretty sure that admission to UChicago's Fin Math program works more like UIUC than UChicago undergrad.
For many good MFE programs, you need a 165Q on the GRE, the required math courses, and a US passport.
I'm not saying it's great to go out and spend $100K on something, but an MS is a recognizable credential and I also think it can often be time and money well spent.
Obviously if you can save $100K that's great, but I think it takes a little more finding traders at the firms you want to work for and maybe having some sort of trading record.
To ArcherVice's post: WELL DUH. That advice should be OBVIOUS to everyone.
My point is, PRESTIGE is MANDATORY for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd chances in such a competitive industry. Not that I'd need 2nd or 3rd chances, but there are vicious sharks in this business that look to steal ideas (amongst other things) and fuck underlings over if you're not already part of the elite crowd.
Having a top-tier degree from a big name institution, makes it easier to get in AND STAY THERE. Not to mention that the academic knowledge gained from those universities is necessary just to avoid appearing like a moron in the interview.
Now, I thought of an MBA, but there's nothing I'd learn there that would help me in trading and developing strategies (CS, Finance Math, modelling, etc). However, the contacts and network would be very valuable. What's I'd like to do is a dual degree MFE/MBA, BUT GUESS WHAT????? The top schools DON'T OFFER THAT. They offer dual degrees in other subjects but not THAT program.
Walk me through that.
Sidebar: I'm beginning to question whether you understand what the different trading roles and career paths actually do.
Some state school hire (if he even gets in) is going to get cheated by upper management, if that upper management is a better-educated Ivy-type grad. I'm told this happens frequently. Others take credit for the work done by the state-school-types, because the Ivy-types have more "credibility" and cronies.
Well at least this kid has the "douche" part of being a trader down pat.
Best grad school for entry to prop trading (Originally Posted: 05/02/2011)
Long time lurker, first time poster here. I have been trading for about a year while in college with pretty fair success (for a 20k line/paper) but I still have a ton to learn! As soon as I started trading it was nirvana and I couldn't image doing anything else with my career.
I am graduating next spring and am looking to move on to a grad school that is specifically good for equity/options trading and has good prop trading exit ops. I am mostly concerned with US schools as my GI bill from my time in the Marines is cashflow positive only in US schools.
I am semi competitive with a 3.5 gpa/710 gmat from a state school.
I either want to join a prop trading firm ( I can start with 20k equity) and go to school at night or just finish a full time program prior to joining a firm.
I know the obvious awnsers are Stern, Columbia, Booth, Wharton, etc, but are they really the best for learning to prop trade.
I know Mike Bellafiore (cofounder of SMB's prop shop) went to Penn State (Smeal) and they have a trading competition there. I know Rotman is decent and holds a competition, but it is in Canada and my GI bill doesn't pay my way over there.
I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR YOUR OPINIONS/EXPERIENCES! THANKS.
come on shorttheworld, anyone?
bump
Why grad school? If you can get into a prop shop now why go?
As per the post I still have 18 months worth of GI BIll. I am cash flow positive at a grad school, to not use my GI Bill benefits would be a waste.
IMHO if you're serious about prop trading you should be thinking more of Quantitative Finance programs rather than MBAs.
The epitome of prop trading would be high frequency (algorithmic) trading. That's pretty much money flying out of your computer screen while you sip on your lemonade in the bahamas
trading does not need grad school. Your personal track record is far more important.
what state school did you go to and like i said youre going to need a better brand but youre not gonna get into a chicago or columbia grad school, strong mfin or quant is gonna be the directional path esp for trading ops
Aren't there a lot of prop traders that use non algo discretionary trading methods, as well as non quant options? I see this push for everyone to be quant, but all the prop traders and PMs I know just trade on price and volume. Thanks!
The MIT team at Rotman had 3/4 team members already with prop trading jobs in chicago. They won pretty badly too.
Lol were these MIT kids competing at the Rotman compeitition or Rotman kids competing at the MIT competition?
Thanks Unforseen!
That explains why Canada's largest non-target school (Ryerson) crushed them in the quant section of the competition. http://ritc.rotman.utoronto.ca/results10.asp
The MIT Team was pretty stacked this year. GETCO, DRW, and another firm. That being said they had the same team from last year and did not drink a drop (or more than two beers) during the two competition nights. Technically cheating...
I doubt refraining from drinking gave them a substantial edge. Most of the people who I've met who work in prop trading or aspire to work in prop trading (myself included) don't really drink much.
The MIT team that won Rotman again this year got smashed by two other teams from MIT at the MIT competition. They apparently refused to let the other teams from MIT come to the Rotman competition so they'd have a better chance at winning again. Probably a good tactic but still a bit sleazy if you ask me...
BEST grad schools for active equities trading/prop trading (Originally Posted: 05/03/2011)
First off:
-The GI Bill pays me to go to grad school -Most schools I am cashflow positive 20-40k over 2 years -I will ONLY consider a career prop trading -I am not looking for a quant/MFE program, I am doing 200-300% a year pattern trading
Avoid reiterating the regular general MBA suspects Wharton, Columbia, Chicago, NYU like a US News magazine, unless talking about their trading competitions, trading floors, trading classes, trading clubs.
I am looking for equity trading specific programs that have something unique, like Tulane, Penn State, Princeton MFin, etc
The two considerations are:
-A good part time/night MBA/Mfin where I could trading during the day at a prop firm -A full time program where there is oppurtunity to do competitions and be in a good trading club.
Please try to retain your 'you don't need a grad degree for that' or why prop trading comments
I will compile a list and later do a risk/reward matrix specifically designed for this.
lol@this thread having 32 replies when 1 would have sufficed. tl;dr OP is both a tard and a tool
I'm using my 911 GI Bill also. I would look at NYU or Columbia. I hear NYU's part time program is good for S&T. The only thing is I found that being in a part time program hampers your opportunity to get an internship. The internship is where they get to assess your abilities. So the full time option works better if you want to assure you are able to transition from military to business seamlessly. If your married like me find a state school so its cheaper and network yourself to death. My ordeal is doing an internship in my last semester at a firm for free that only recruits guys from BB's after their first few years. Just so I can have the internship on my resume.
That sucks brother.
IMSOSMOOVE,
Yea I am really grateful they redid the GI Bill, it is a hell of an opportunity. So I am assuming you are coming out as an officer? I am actually prior enlisted and am finishing my undergrads in 2012 so I was able to do two internships as an analyst at different mutual funds, one of which is ranked #1 in it's Morningstar catagory now.
NYU and Columbia are very appealing to me but I only have a 3.5 GPA/710 GMAT and am going straight from a state school with no post bac exp. I think there is a chance, but I am no outstanding candidate in admin's eyes, so I need to make a contiegency plan.
Good to see other vet's lurking around WSO. Where are you going to school now IMSOSMOOVE?
Uh, just because he is going into a different field in finance doesn't mean he isn't right. A lot of schools and businesses like to see experience.
Also, he was referencing teaching a class in the military and how having a combat action ribbon lends someone teaching a class like that credibility when talking about war. He wasn't being a douche, there's just some miscommunication here.
Yea I have got mine too as well as 4 plates/12 screws in my leg. At the end of the day that doesn't really matter for shit though, just some crap you throw in a box and put in your attic. I was asking for second opinions on the best MBA programs for trading out there, and his conclusion was I wasn't ready for an MBA, unlike him, because I was a Sergeant and he was a butterbar (junior officer).
Now that we've gone quite off topic...
Would love to hear from some people that have participated in the tulane energy trading competition, the smeal comp, or the traders trophy last year, and what schools you saw represented well or had experiences with.
"-The GI Bill pays me to go to grad school -Most schools I am cashflow positive 20-40k over 2 years -I will ONLY consider a career prop trading -I am not looking for a quant/MFE program, I am doing 200-300% a year pattern trading"
A little bit too cocky???
How could you possibly accuse this guy of being cocky? He knows what he wants to do, which is a lot more than the average dipshit on this site.
How is this cocky?
Just giving background as to factors that impact my decision. As per my return that is with a smallish line and of course I would have diminishing returns as the line get larger, just showing I am semi decent trading basis.
As per the GI Bill it is what it is, and the cashflows are what they are. It is like that for anyone.
I'd like to offer some help/insight. One of the first questions your going to be asked anywhere is: your 200-300% returns...on how much capital? sharpe ratio? avg. duration? etc. Just trying to get a better feel for where your at.
We have a lot of entry level guys apply with "trading records" and they usually get a smirk, not much else. There' are many good master's programs out there that focus on trading without too much crazy math/high-level programming.
Also, by prop firm do you mean a straight prop shop or any aspect of prop trading a la HF, bank, etc.?
Ragnar,
Thanks for the reply. My returns are in an account that barely qualifies to be a pattern trading account, right now it is about 45k of equity. I am sure if the small size of my line doesn't make my returns irrelevant to BBs/Props, my short track record would.
I simply put it out there to show I haven't done terrible and I have a demonstrated interest in the market.
All my trading has been intraday, so I am not sure how to express my volatility.
I am like the idea of prop trading, as it is simular to what I do now, just with a larger line, but that doesn't close my mind to trading at a bank, HF, or like desk.
Thanks!
isnt a junior officer higher than a sergeant?
Yeah I think you have some air of arrogance about you and that's going to kill you off for opps. Prop desks get plenty of kids who are overtly confident coming in and they get torn up and not invited back for second rOunds. The reason that Columbia and Chicago are constantly pushed is because they are the best "trading" schools -- Wharton and Harvard are of course great but I feel These two shine more strongly. Maryland is a solid undergrad school before you bash it..
Thanks shorttheworld, been waiting for your response on this thread! Would love to hear your school experience and whether you thought any of it was worth anything in your trading career.
Col and Chicago are #1 and #2 on my list but I am iffy on admissions. My GMAT is fine, but my GPA of 3.5 from a state isn't, so I am trying to find more safety schools that are good trading programs.
I am really not trying to boast with my return. It is for a short duration, I doubt it would work in every market, and I am sure it would have diminishing returns as my line grow. It is just there to show I had an interest in the market, and that I have learned at least one simple strategy.
Love to hear more from you on this
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