I do not expect this thread to gain any traction; moreover, I expect to be moderately shat upon for my comments. However, I really think there is some value to be added on the topic of grammar.
I understand that most of us are finance guys, in one vein or another. The numbers are what really interest us, (especially when preceded with dollar signs). Words are important too, and it matters how we wield them.
Everyone hates those people that jump all over every misspelled word or awkward comma, including, and especially, me. These people are essentially bullies who shroud their insecurity by exaggerating the depths to which the misspelled word has offended their sensibilities. These people, whether trolling or (heaven help them) sincere, should be ignored or berated. Not because they are annoying, but because they shed a negative light on grammar.
Just like kids will rebel by doing the opposite of what they are told, some people now think that it is uncool to start your sentence with a capital letter or care about the difference between “there”, “their”, and “they’re”.
I just want to say that grammar IS important. By practicing good grammar, even when trying to post to a thread between lightning-fast ALT-TABs at work, you can improve reading comprehension and writing ability. Most importantly, you will get a feel for your language, which is something that many don’t have. Why should you care?
Trying to study for the GMAT? Write a term paper? Edit a pitch book? Document a firm’s critical process? Review a candidate’s resume? Write a cover letter? Write your Harvard application essays?
Correctly using “fewer” instead of “less” will not immediately help you succeed at any of the items listed above, but consistently caring about what you write and how you write it will build a valuable competency in communication.
If you have great grammar and you’re just being lazy, that’s fine. We all do it. But if you really don’t feel something is wrong when you write “your” instead of “you’re”, you should consider brushing up. It’s not lame to care about grammar.
This is incorrect punctuation, unless you are European.
Commas and periods are placed within closing quotation marks except when a parathetical reference follows the quotation.
Colons and semi-colons go outside the closing quotation marks.
:)
Well done! I was hoping something like that would happen. You learn something every day. Be honest though... did you hope I'd screw something up?
I wasn't hoping, but definitely was looking. It's one of the most common punctuation errors.
Also, I think it looks weird and the Europeans do it better but I digress.
This.
Don't get me started on the Oxford comma. There is no rational reason to omit the comma between the last two items in a list.
YES. I fucking hate it when people don't use the oxford comma. It's by far my biggest pet peeve re: "correct" English grammar.
And what yearight pointed out above makes no sense either. It pisses me off. If you're quoting something, why would you stick an extra character in there that the author didn't use. Give me a fucking break. English blows. English teachers blow more.
How is that correct? Is this true? My grammar is admittedly poor, but I've always thought that the rule typically applies to quoting another statement.
I knew a thread like this would have all the grammar nazis liquidating your post.
Haha well, they have been pretty civil. On one hand I thought I'd have harsher criticism, and on the other I didn't think it would go to 10 posts. So, a win in my book.
1.) It's good to protect the language. 2.) It's good not to be the grammar police. 3.) The grammar police are rarely humble and usually talk down to people.
Moral: carefully, nicely oh-by-the-way mention stuff when someone makes a grammar mistake.
Great summary. Honored to have a heavy hitter here commenting!
The grammar police are also known to say things like "your an idiot. Don't you know its their not there?".
It matters how we wield them- not it matter how we wield them. Couldn't resist.
I have to say I really like this thread- grammar is important to me and in all honesty some of the grammar on WSO shocks me. Even more shocking is when I meet people who got their MBA's at places like Wharton, but make grammatical mistakes all the time. I assume they all had someone fix their essays for them- I can't imagine any top school would forgive mistakes like that.
Duly noted, and fixed. See? Even people who care - a lot - make mistakes that the spell checker doesn't catch.
People get to the pinnacle of any industry with a mix of leadership, technical excellence, and communication ability -- which includes attention to grammar.
You're talking in two different contexts.
I think that as people get further and further away from college (high school if they were a STEM major at a non-liberal arts school), their grammar deteriorates a little.
I also think that internal business emails and informal notes are written with a lot less care towards grammar than MBA essays.
If you are a banker writing a prospectus, it's different. But to have bad grammar in everyday life is acceptable. Especially when Word gives us green and red underlines.
I've seen people from top b-schools publish reports with incorrect grammar in them. But you're right, grammar here and grammar there (ie informal vs. formal) is grammar in two different contexts. However, I don't think it's difficult to maintain basic grammar here, and some of it truly is bad (seen people say here when they mean hear too many times on WSO). I also think that grammar should improve as you get older, not deteriorate- you've spoken/written for longer, and doesn't practice make perfect?
There is a big difference between intentionally leaving out commas, apostrophes etc out of laziness (I do this too, when texting etc.) and genuinely using something incorrectly because you don't know it. I also think that in the most glaring cases of misuse, it's fairly obvious to the reader which category you fall in.
Reminds me of this:
//
+1
Can't stand blatantly misspelled/misused words, whether it's a WSO post, pitchbook, term paper. If it's a text or an email coming from a mobile device, ok. But if you've got a keyboard? Come on now.
Biggest pet peeves are the there/their/they're and its/it's. I'm sure they're in everyone's top five, but seriously...we learned that shit in 6th grade, people.
while on the topic of grammar, it's "flesh" not "flush", i.e. "Let's flesh out this idea."
100x this. You flush out a pheasant before you shoot it.
Grammar in the Workplace (Originally Posted: 06/20/2012)
I was listening to the Wall Street Journal This Morning radio show while riding my bike this morning and there was an interesting discussion about grammar and spelling in today’s workplace.
The discussion was primarily about how kids who grow up in the texting and social media age are very reluctant to use proper grammar when communicating verbally and through writing at work. Although people are very thorough when it comes to proof-reading their cover letters and resumes, this changes when they are hired as the same care does not go into internal e-mails, communicating via the firm’s messaging system, and even talking in meetings. I for one am guilty of this. I always wrote a lot of internal communication at work using abbreviations, sentence fragments, and the like. One of the most significant usage errors they talked about that I almost always use is “Bill and me” instead of the proper “Bill and I”. In my experience, however, I’ve seen upper management also guilty of similar infractions. ‘Thx’ instead of ‘thanks’, ‘mins’ instead of ‘minutes’ and so on.
The segment went on to describe how the internet generation just does not put much weight on the quality of their grammar into what they perceive as quality work. They are concentrating on creating the next algorithm or app as a token of success rather than how well they write, which apparently infuriates managers who grew up with a heavy emphasis on grammar. As a matter of fact, Twitter, which I am an avid user of, actually encourages the use of bad grammar as they only allow 140 characters in their messages and make you think of ways to abbreviate everything possible to fit a longer message into their parameters.
What does everyone think about this? As the majority of the audience on this forum grew up with the internet and texting as a big part of their lives, I want to see what your take on the matter is.
One of my biggest pet peeves is lack of grammar/spelling errors in e-mail subject lines. I catch it all the time, whether it be from a MD to a Analyst. I know some programs like Microsoft Office wont spell check it so people often overlook it. I guess all of this (and your article) shows an absolute dependency on spell check haha
It's nonsense to say people don't put as much weight on grammar just because they don't use the proper grammar ALL THE TIME at work. I think most of us spend enough time at work looking for comma errors on pitchbooks and reports and what have you that when it comes down to casual conversation I'd give no thought to emailing a coworker very informally. Grammar usage is still there - when it counts. It's not like the previous generations didn't use bad grammar - they just spoke it rather than typing it. Same thing.
That being said there are some basic things that tick me off no matter what the setting, mostly to do with your/you're, their/they're/there, etc. But otherwise who cares?
Personally I make sure to write correctly no matter the medium. I can understand people putting things like 'mins', 'btw' and 'imo' but spelling things like their / there / they're really aggravate me. It's really no extra effort to type and write properly and makes whatever you say come across so much better.
totally agree about Grammer haha. fuck I'm stupid
In addition to "there" "they're" "their", improperly using "your" and "you're" really gets me annoyed too. Is it really that difficult to use them correctly? For some reason, every other grammatical error is tolerable except these to me.
so i used to work at this muni-bond advisory shop, which was a subsidiary of a large international law firm. we would send reports to our clients that had a lot of legal language.
when i was working on a deal, i noticed that the template had a subject-verb disagreement, which i changed before submitting to my manager for review. my manager was a pretty smart person, but was kind of a fob (from China) and "corrected" it by marking it in red asking me to change it back to what it was originally.
i didn't argue and did what i was told.
The above gets me too. EDIT: Post about "they're, their and there"
I also hate "Could of" and "Would of"...
I mean what the fuck. It doesn't even make any sense.
Senior bankers are the worst. I would often receive e-mails with no body message, unnecessary abbreviations (Pls, Thx, etc.). They're often on the road and using their BlackBerry to e-mail, but still, analysts are generally better with grammar in my experience.
I am a policeman when it comes to this. Texting, email, Facebook, any medium ... my brain doesn't work in any other way and it just irks me to see sloth permeate the way we communicate. It's a language, I follow it.
The things other people send, however, I can't control; I'm a pragmatist, so what I can't control, doesn't concern me too much.
lolol I hope this was intentional
Wow, great timing.
I just started a new corporate job. I'm from an arts background so in university I was drilled to be a writing machine. What has shocked me in my workplace (where most have a numbers background) is how bad the writing skills are. In all my training documents there are multiple errors, and just yesterday I discovered a girl in my team can't spell simple 5/6 letter words. I'm not exaggerating.
As for internal communications, I don't think you need to use perfect grammar. You just need to be able turn it on for when it really matters.
Senior bankers are the worst, non sensical stream of conscious emails that often repeat themselves within the email - smartphone or desktop
I actually am guilty of this. Even tho i always did well on the verbal/writing parts of my sat/gmat/gre I write emails and message forum posts (like this one) like an illiterate dickhead. Im just used to writing like this cuz of my twitter account and texting...and I dont feel like editing the message.
To be completely honest, I'm a grammar Nazi. However, I just haven't noticed particularly poor grammar, spelling, or informal usage in internal or external email among co-workers or clients. Perhaps the age group of my peers is why I'm not seeing this issue--I'm literally one of the youngest people in my business, so perhaps that's why I don't see a lot of text talk or sloppy work.
Grammar: The difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.
I'm fine with abbreviations and such in informal communications, but get your damn words right!
I think that using mins and other abbreviations is totally fine, but when it comes to major grammar mistakes, I get pretty pissy. One of the things that really annoys me is when people mistakenly use your instead of you're, or its instead of it's.
What really annoys me is when people say "guesstimate" or "same difference".
I MEAN THE FIRST ONE ISN'T EVEN A REAL FUCKING WORD
Pitchbook Nazi: Proper Hyphen Use... (Originally Posted: 06/15/2016)
So, I'm kind of insane. I just started working for this boutique and a lot of our reports/pitchbooks are generated from built-in macros that access our models and auto-generate base books, which we then customize for the particular engagement.
The template is, in my opinion, filled with punctuation/spacing issues. I'm able to solve most of them, and in some cases where I am unsure about how to approach a style/english issue, I resort to searching the internet.
However, just now, I've realized that I have no idea how to correctly express EV multiples when written out in long form english...
So, monkeys... what is the correct way to write this?
(A) Enterprise-value-to-revenue (as seen on Investopedia) (B) Enterprise value-to-revenue (my opinion) (C) Enterprise value to revenue (how it is written in our report, currently)
Assumption here is that the sentence starts with this phrase, hence the capitalization scheme.
B is grammatically correct. C does not clearly identify the subject. A is just fucking lazy.
Thank you, brah.
We're all going to make it.
B
Love the Wu reference in the username
living the dream. This gives me flashbacks...
dear lord.... shit like this made me want to go postal.
Grammar - Elementary (Originally Posted: 06/22/2011)
For those of you still uncertain about elementary grammar, here you go!
Y R U
geez
I swear I've uttered that fucking rant in my head a million times while reading this site. I even wrote a post about it:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/how-to-write-like-your-not-a-moron
to be honest my communications with coworkers is routinely littered with y, u, and r. the more senior the guy, the less characters are used.
typical response from my MD is "k u got". typical response from my intern is "Hello Gamenumbers, I have finished the reports and have..." and it continues like that for 2 paragraphs. and you should see the client requests we receive, "hey u have any data on iskc 4q ebit mgn?"
I get literally hundreds upon hundreds of emails each day and likely a similar amount of chat messages. Anything above a few lines in length is outright too long.
nobody cares about grammar and punctuation in internal comms. and nobody capitalizes anything.
we set the standard for grammar and punctuation in external published docs, but for internal stuff it simply does not matter
.
That's disgusting...I even use correct grammar when I'm writing a post-it reminder for myself. ;)
No thanks homie, Im well versed in ebonics.
I judge someone on how their grammar. Granted anything internal is much more laid back, but I never adopt those singular letters as apart of my message/email. It drives me nuts. Frankly, at my job now, they are so elitist that I might be fired lol.
I just threw up in my mouth a little.
Delete
Whoops, my bad, I was gonna write something else and then got distracted momentarily. Typo.
I, am good at writi'n. Y r u guys loggiong on this site than posting this dum stuff
...
Given the utter bastardisation unleashed on the English language by Americans over the centuries, it was only a matter of time until single letters became more prevalent than correctly spelt words.
...
I see what you did there...
Are you sure he actually did it? Because he might have just done it.
It's so common to get used to to Y R U..I had hard time coming back to sense after lots of sms across! It took time but I guess I am doing good now! :D
Writing Pet Peeves - We All Have Them! (Originally Posted: 05/14/2014)
One of the most wonderful things about the users on WSO is their writing ability (clearly, many took Eddie's advice to heart). Even trolls use correct grammar when they are screwing with you. As such, this is not a prescriptive piece on writing, everyone here knows the differences between "its" and "it's" and among "there", "their", and "they're". I'd venture to guess that "between" and "among" are used properly more often than not. But, even when we're faced with perfectly good writing, I'm sure that we all have our own pet peeves, and I'm sure that we all have habits of our own that are pet peeves of others! I'll list off three of my personal pet peeves as well as habits of my own that I'm sure bug the shit out of others. I'm working on it!
While I have my own pet peeves, I recognize that I have a bevy of habits that make others want to hit me with a crowbar. This is by no means an exhaustive list, these are what I suspect are the top three. Seriously, I'm working on it.
What are some of your pet peeves while reading/writing?
i know it always bugs at least one person on the site when someone says "what's your favorite quote" instead of "quotation"
i taught SAT grammar for a couple years so i try to not let it bug me when i see grammar/spelling errors. nothing worse than that guy that points out one simple grammar error in an otherwise great piece of writing.
one thing that is funny is seeing people misuse whom / whomever; adding it in just because it sounds right instead of actually knowing the rule
FD: I'm never gramatically correct on this site, I rarely proofread too, don't judge!
Grammarist was down when I saw this, and I don't think the GPO style guide makes mention of the oxford comma, otherwise I'd cite my work. although I agree with your assertion about the oxford/serial comma, either way is technically correct.
my pet peeves:
misusing affect/effect
they're/their/there
your/you're
to/too
using big words when simpler words will do: picking on one of my threads' respondents, someone used "tautological" twice, TWICE! in my opinion, true mastery of a language is the ability to convey complex concepts in simple terms. you don't sound smarter, you sound like you're trying too hard
not a writing pet peeve, but I absolutely hate people who incessantly (see what I did there?) say like, umm, uhh, you know, etc.; really boils my blood.
but I absolutely hate people who incessantly (see what I did there?) say like, umm, uhh, you know, etc.; really boils my blood.[/quote]
AGREED...and the satan spawn of speaking - ending a statement with millenial uptalk as if you asked a question. Anyone who talks like that is a child.
i h8 grammer nazis
People who use these phases:
People who bitch about grammar/spelling in forum posts on the internet.
However I applaud those who call the people who consistently can not spell dumb asses.
do you ever post constructively?
Lol RE 2, I once had a superior tell me the Oxford comma was 'wrong.' Was flabbergasted.
I always use the oxford comma. It seems that younger people use it much more than older people.
At the end of the day, your boss is always right.
Were you never taught to use the Oxford comma? Me neither. That or I guess our styles of writing never required an Oxford comma. For example, to quote OP I would say "I am having a party on the weekend. Hitler and Stalin are the two hookers being invited". So clean and direct.
Edit: I meant your boss. Not you.
My pet peeve is when someone, once again, for the eleventy billionth time, asserts that the song "Ironic" has no irony in it at all. There is all kinds of irony in the song.
http://examples.yourdictionary.com/examples-of-irony.html
Although I'll admit that many things said weren't technically ironic, there are several examples of real, actual irony in the song, generally based on situational irony.
"Mr. Play-it-Safe was afraid to fly...He waited his whole damn life to take that flight..." and then the plane crashes. There's obvious situational irony in this--commercial flight is incredibly safe and you have to be a real weirdo to avoid flying out of fear of death while at the same time having no issue riding on a bus (wasn't John Madden like this?). The weirdo who irrationally refused to fly his entire life out of concern for safety finally decides to make a rational decision and fly and it ends up killing him.
"It's like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife" is probably one of the most ironic--and somewhat realistical--statements or observations ever made in history in the context of situational irony. You've got all the silverware in the world but you've got no way of cutting your meat. Happens all the time at work when we've got 100 plastic spoons but no forks, or at home when I've got all the forks on Earth but no spoon to eat my cereal.
And other statements, while not techically ironic, could be ironic with additional context:
"An old man turned 98; he won the lottery and died the next day." Could be ironic with additional context, e.g. he played the lottery every day for 70 years and always refused to pick his lucky #7. Finally picked 7 after 70 years, won $100 million and died.
Good 90's tune w/ Taylor Hawkins on drums. In fact I should DL that album now.
words i hate: yolo dolo fomo
see a trend?
but what's your opinion on the lead singer from U2?
I literally have all of those pet peeves. Literally.
Another pet peeve - the bullshit one must slog through while looking for a roommate via CL. Especially those d-bag realtors who place fake posts, and call themselves roommate matchmakers. Eat shit and die, vermin.
I dislike the Oxford comma and will never use it.
Myriad is a noun. The "coincidental" use of "ironic" is acceptable. You may want to take a look at some of the content on m-w.com.
are versus is
If you say the word "hashtag" out loud... in public... I will murder you.
LOL! So true.
I've found myself saying "LOL" out loud. It's pathetic.
hashtag winning!
People who end sentences with prepositions are the bane of my existence.
I also hate when people that put a comma instead of a semi colon or a period before "however" or "nevertheless."
Also sometimes, after writing a paper, for the next few hours, I find that I punctuate while speaking with people, so I'll say "period" or "semi colon" out loud, it's a terrible habit.
//
When people use the phrase "Don't reinvent the wheel."
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ironic
@BTbanker : And I'll help you bury the body.
StopWithTheFuckingHashtags"To that end,"...a lazy use of a prep phrase at the beginning of a sentence because you didn't want to transition between sentences.
The single most annoying use of grammar I've seen on WSO:
The guy who writes the lowercase 'i' in front of a capitalized verb when referring to an action he is taking. iWish he would stop doing that.
Additionally, I also loathe how often 'myriad' is misused and when people do not use the Oxford comma.
People who use an apostrophe when indicating a plural rather than a possessive. People who use passive voice when they could easily avoid doing so.
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