Help! Choosing between banks in HK vs. US
Currently deciding between a top BB in HK (think GS/MS) vs. top MM firm (think HLHZ/HW/Baird)in US. I am mostly interested in the opportunities coming out of banking and I'm looking at top PE firms or top 3 MBA (H/S/W). Perhaps even starting a business in Asia one day but that's another story...
Which one would provide better exit opportunities in that light?
Also, it's not so much a cultural or language issue in Asia, I'm just concerned about the HK banking culture (do they work you to death?). I've heard it's very western in HK, but I care about my mental health and sanity, so if anyone could enlighten me about working there?
Hey, I am making the same considerations and here are some of my thoughts.
I did SA stint in HK BB this year, and received several offers from the top firms due to the accelerated interview process. However, now not sure whether it is wiser to start in HK or NY. Have been doing some due-diligenece, and here's what I gathered.
Some preliminary considerations: Though as you said, HK is western (to an extent), a strong command of mandarin is essentially necessary. The majority of the analysts in the office are Chinese, and many are Chinese-expats who received an education overseas so they are fluent in English as well.
1) HK deal teams are TINY in comparison to NY ones. The entire TMT team at my BB was LBO teams in China are literally sitting there doing nothing. M&A is also just emerging (Chinese people hate paying for advice, culturally). I've read recently that many top PE/HF shops test your modeling skills. Needless to say, the analyst that has worked on leveraged buyout and with PE firms in NY will have an edge.
Bottom line: More client exposure, less technical skills.
3) Culture
HK banks are EXTREMELY political. Relationship hires are rife throughout the office. Margaret Ren (Merrill), Janice Hu (Credit Suisse), George Li (UBS) and the "Princeling" model is prevalent-- probably a reflection of the China culture. Many of the deals are currently sourced from China SOE's... but this too is changing as the private enterprises spawn up and couldnt give two sh*ts about who your grandfather is.
Never worked in a new york bank, but I'm under the impression that politics play less of a role at the junior level.
BOTTOM Line:
It's a decision. If you go to Asia, it is likely you will be pigeonholed into Asia. But this may not be a bad thing. Growth opportunities in Asia far exceed those in NY. But you must have the skill-set and mind-set to be able to leverage it.
A common trend nowadays is for NY analysts to transfer to HK (relatively easy in a good market). The reverse is considerably harder. BUT- I think this will get harder as Asia markets recover much faster than US ones. Take a gamble--- you will get better deal exposure in NY, but in 3 years, you may not be able to xfer to HK easily. Additionally, referring back to the politics aspect of the HK offices, I don't see how it is not disadvantageous when you arrive as a 2nd or 3rd year and compete against people that have cultivated relationships with Directors and MD's for those extra two or three years.
Hahah well anyway, just some rambling ideas. Personally, I think HK as a city kicks NY's ass. I think however, that assuming you don't have a strong background (in terms of relationships), getting a strong technical skill-set is probably the better route. PE's will increase their presence in China, and they will need people with those modeling skills.
The only additional consideration I would make in your case is the fact that though it is HK, Goldman and Morgan Stanley do add a certain "oomph" to your resume that the MM firms may not.
HTH.
I'd say top BB in HK, definitely. A big name is always a big name. And you'll work in much more interesting deals than if you were in MM in the US.
ibhopeful, that was incredibly helpful, thank you.
I think you pretty much confirmed all my fears about going to Asia:
If this is all true, then I'd honestly just stay in the U.S. But why are you still contemplating HK given all this information, it seems as if the positive outweigh the negatives! But yes, the only thing really encouraging me is the name of the top firm, but then again, if you are pigeonholed and can't move easily into PE, then why bother?
Let me know your thoughts!
It's all about risk appetite.
China will be the country of the 21st century. Fact. Huge deal-volume will emerge from China in the decades ahead. Fact. Most people are still rather oblivious to this. Fact.
To me, considering a career in Asia is like being a VC. It's possible- heck, maybe even probable that the novelty will fade, and it's all hype about nothing. On the other hand, investing your career in Asia can also be the next "Google".
If you are ABC or Asian descent I would say you should weigh your choices. If you are white... it's going to be much harder. At my BB, you could count the amount of non-asian IBD guys on one hand. and all of them were fluent in chinese.
Edit: WRT language, language seems less of an issue the more senior you get (i.e. a lot of the heads were all white from NY).
Most clients know English. Big exceptions are the Chinese clients. A lot of them were basically farmers 20 years ago that started their own thing and made it big. Heck, some of them can't even read Chinese.
A lot of DD/drafting calls are done in Chinese. Pitchbooks often produced in Chinese and English. Same for Analyst Presentations and Roadshows. Can you scrape by without being moderately fluent? Probably. Is it good for career? No.
Big Caveat: Dude, in your case, I think the discrepency with the name is just so big GS/MS vs MM... that I would seriously just consider taking the GS/MS offer and worry about the other stuff later. If really it doesnt work out, do 1 year in HK and ask to transfer to NY/Singapore and figure it out from there. Gluck.
that Chinese culture probably dominates but I think out of country teams still there are bunch of Non-asian ppl out there, depending on banks. Just wonder how easy you think to get transferred to NY/SG?
^ Yes that's true, China is predicted to be the biggest economy by 2025, however the time horizon is in "decades". I don't know if I could wait around for "decades" and by that time you'll probably be at a good enough place in your career to do business in China. I'm not sure that if you remain in Asia, you'll have a huge leg up because of experience and relationships. Things will undoubtedly change in a decade and it might be easy to move over...
You're fresh outta college - take a chance, see a new place - when else are you going to? You can afford the high risk/reward profile now. Just the excitement would be enough for me.
Also, unless the MM firm is HLHZ (and only certain groups within it) the difference is huge. You worry that you won't get into a large PE fund after HK - you'll def have a better chance from the HK BB than the other 2 MMs.
I am pretty much in the same situation. but leaning towards NYC becuase of the better opps... does anyone know the number of IBD interns they are taking for HK... bar, db, cs, ubs, gs, ms, jpm, nomura, lazard
does GS / MS in HK give its analysts housing allowance?
past summer
db = 9 cs = 4 ubs = ~10 gs = 5 ms = >10 jpm = >10 ml - 7
GS/HK and almost every other BB canceled Housing Allowance.
wow i am surprised that cs and gs only have 4/5.. thought would be at least 10 given the deal flow
They did the recruiting back in February, back when it looked like the sh1t was truly about to hit the fan.
and yes, many of these banks are now aggressively recruiting. a couple of interns in HK landed 2-3 offers before they even arrived back in NY (re: accelerated interviews in HK)
was in almost the same situation as you a year ago, chose to came hong kong and never regretted
Justanotherday,
Assuming you are @ a BB.
Can you comment on need for language (mandarin/korean) fluency?
At my BB during the summer, a lot of work couldn't be done w/o Chinese (translating pitches, doing DD calls, doing roadshows/analyst presentations in chinese etc).
Any analysts at your office w/o said language proficiency?
just went to a db asia event... apparently they require a chinese test... anyone have experience with this... what they are looking for... easy... hard... whats the topic about? do any other hk banks do this beside db
Claims of how Chinese is a must to work in HK could not be further from the truth. I am not a HR personnel so I can't claim to know the recruiting trends here in Hong Kong 100%, but since I'm working in this city and in this industry, let me offer what I think is the case:
-Majority of people in director level and up do not speak ANY Chinese. Most are Americans or Europeans with very limited language abilities.
-If you want to work in HK, any proficiency in any Asian language (obviously, English is a must) is a definite plus. The more junior the new recruit, the more emphasis on your language abilities (because naturally, you're delegated to more "bitch-works" like translating pitchbooks and so forth)
-While HK is definitely seeing exponential growth of deals involving China, don't forget it is also majority of ibanks' Asian headquarter (involving all other Asian countries with the exception of Japan)
-While banks tend to want to hire analysts that are bilingual in Mandarin and English, also recognize the fact that most local students here are trilingual in Cantonese, Mandarin and English, and we also have a huge population of mainland Chinese students here. This means an average Chinese student in HK can expect to face a stiff competition, where as an average student bilingual in English and [insert other Asian language] have far less competition. If you speak fluent Thai, Indonesian, Hindi or Korean in addition to English, than you definitely have a competitive advantage over the kids who are bilingual in Chinese and English
-Level of deal sophistication: I have no clue what exactly is "sophisticated" deal, but there are plenty of deals in Asia involving complex structures (hello ubiquitous Asian family conglomerates), big corporates, etc.
-Workload: if you didn't think you'd be getting bitch-works like translation, ppt and memos, well there are plenty to go around in ibanking - I have never worked in other cities, so I don't know how it compares to cities like NY, but if you're the most junior of analysts, one must be fully prepared to be given a lot of ridiculous secretarial works. That is not to say you don't get modeling experience. In the bank that I worked for, second-year analysts were doing the bulk of modelling, with a few bright juniors helping out.
-Culture: at least from my experience, there was very little politics involved in the office - but I am still analyst-level so I don't know about anything beyond that. Americans that are working here absolutely love the culture in HK office - their words, not mine.
So all in all, while ibhopeful532 makes a lot of good points that I fully agree with, the discrepancies show that it really depends on which bank you work for and what your expectations are. HK is a great city and you could be getting an exposure to multiple countries, which is always exciting, but as previously mentioned, you're likely to lose mobility (i.e stay in Asia).
This is definitely a dilemma a lot of my friends have faced as well, but in the end,they all decided to go with top US boutiques over top banks in HK, primarily due to the fear of not being able to move into top PE firms post banking if they went with HK banking programs.
If you go into a banking program without picking up strong technical skills, then it will likely put you at a big disadvantage when recruiting for top PE positions. So pick a place that's going to give you that good technical training. We felt that the US boutiques will better prepare analysts in that technical aspect.
Not that US boutiques guarantee you a spot in top PE shops, but they do provide you with more security to land top PE opportunities later if you performed well during your banking program. Many of them have already been head-hunted by top PE shops just a year into their analyst program. I'm not so sure if the same is true if you go to HK. Maybe someone can comment more on that.
I think it's important to stay focused and not get distracted. If getting into top PE later is your priority, then focus on a program that will most likely help you get there.
Hope this helps!
Ok, the vibe I'm getting from this thread is "it depends" on what I'm looking for. I was initially looking for a clear cut answer, but realize that it's not the case. I'm not sure I could go wrong choosing one over the other, but maybe I'm mistaken... anyone else have insights?
ibhopeful532, those numbers are false - I spent the summer at goldman. GS did not have five interns in IBD - GS hired in the 10-12 range.
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Not sure why people think HK is better than NY because it's not. The only reason the douches on this board pimp it up is because the girls are A LOT easier in HK (some of these guys can't get any here in the US, so they transplant themselves abroad and play in the minor leagues - that's right ibhopeful i'm talking about you).
The HK social life is diluted and small (LKF and Wan Chai are really the only places to go on the island). The expat scene, while lively, is tiny so the slightest misstep makes things awkward. I can count on one hand the number of clubs/bars with hot dimes (i'd argue di is the only one worth going to).
The city smells like ass and LACKS culture - it is the Eastern equivalent of London, essentially. No music scene or good concerts (hedkandi did come to M this year though), no vibrant theatre district, cuisine is heavily Asian-influenced (obviously), and no professional sports (nobody watches soccer, sorry guys). But largely the culture suffers because it is such a workaholic place - working hours for the average Honky are MUCH longer than for the average New Yorker (for banking, it's even worse bc you're staying late to do calls with NY).
Girls: New York Nightlife: New York Culture: New York Food: New York Working Hours: New York Deal flow: New York Exit to PE: New York
Bottom line, people do IB in Hong Kong because they couldn't get into IB in New York, the world's city.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hong_Kong_Skyline_Restitch_-_Dec_2007…
Picture is worth a thousand words. Grew up in the city (New YOrk), fell in love with HK. SUPER convenient-- it will make new your look like a third world country in terms of transportation infrastructure and urban design.
Great thing about HK is only 25% of the island is developed-- 75% are natural preservse. You have beaches, hiking trails, natural tourist destinations, disney land, etc.
HUGE Expat population-- go to Lang Kwai Fang-- white guys surrounded by tons of (materialistic) although great looking women. Getting laid has never been easier.
You will mostly work in Central and rarely venture to the poorer areas of HK. Hong Kong has this great thing called the Airport Express. If you work at Morgan Stanley, JP, Credit Suisse, UBS, BNP, you walk downstairs, hope on the train, and in 24 minutes exactly you are at the best-ranked airport in the world, with flights to everywhere in Asia.
In terms of business, HK banks used to run on the "Princeling" model. They hire the sons/daughters of top PRC officials. China has SOE's (State owned enterprises, e.g. PEtrochem China, second largest market cap in the world after exxon mobil). When these go private and IPO, they bring in $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (e.g. China Construction Bank IPO -- $20 BILLION dollars).
If you look at the top 10 largest market cap banks in the world, i think the top 4 or 5 are all Chinese (and state owned). China has 2 trillion dollars in US dollar reserves. That's T- for trillion boys and girls.
Fixed income markets are virtualy non-existent. IPO by chinese companies on the NYSE and London Exchanges are becoming more and more prevalent. Very few leveraged-buyout deals (hence what I mean by lower deal sophistication as compared to new york). Also, M&A is weaker since well, there aren't that many notable M&A deals going on right now. Chinese people also don't like to pay for advisory services.
I'd like to contribute something else- to give context. Most of us are around ~20 right? Think back to when you were young and living in the states. Does the US seem appreciably different than it did 20 years ago?
I come from a "third-tier" City in China (immigrated when I was very, very young). in 1989, the Chinese government rolled over Tiananmen square with tanks to quell capitalist/democratic notions. People were on bicycles, car ownership was virtually non-existent. My home burned coal to heat it up. Beijing Airport was one building.
TWENTY YEARS LATER. I dare you to go to Shanghai/Beijing and tell me that the infrastructure there is not more impressive than anything you have seen in the western world. Beijing Terminal 3 airport is the BIGGEST in the world. The airport express will get you from Airport to Business Center Beijing in 20 minutes.
Take a walk in Shanghai. If you don' see a ferrari/porshe/lambourghini every 3-4 blocks, you're blind. BMW is for middle-class (okay- that may be hyperbole).
The fact of the matter is, honestly, 20 years ago China was like North Korea. No joke. Now, think of what CHina was able to accomplish in TWENTY YEARS. In 20 years, China went from some shitty forgotten third world country to being spoken of as an imminent threat to US hegemony.
Now think of what the next 20 years will look like.
This video says a lot.
In my opinion, moving over to Asia needs caution. 21 century = China? It will be a significant player, but I doubt it is the century of China.
IB in HK/China is DIRECTLY related to the communist party, the political climate changes greatly with ascension of every new leader. You never know what is going to happen: Margret Ren (daughter in law of former chairman of the party who opposed the Tiananmen Square atrocity) was forced to retire.
Just to point out to you, IBhopeful. The infrastructure in shanghai and beijing are still shit. They look good outside and the quality is very, very sad. It's relatively easy to build, what about sustainability? The "Bird Nest" stadium is already covered with bird shit.
Us Chinese are good at making a good appearance, because we need FACE. But we don't give a fuck about the aftermath. Don't get caught up in the hype. Even if China does become the rock star of the century, YOU WON'T get shit because you are not a party member.
Confucius once said:" think three times before making your move." He didn't say listen to Jim Rogers and you will be cool.
That wasn't a jab at London, by the way - HK is simply a carbon copy of London and doesn't have a culture of its own.
I said...
ibhopeful said...
NAILED IT.
Also, HK chicks are UGLY. They got nothing on Shanghai, Taipei, etc.
aworldapart-
RE: your statement that going to HK means you didnt get a job in NY. Definitely, not true.
China is going to be the largest economy in the world in a 10-15 year timespan.
You can argue that the person at HK IBD is "inferior" to the NY IBD'er. But I guarantee you that the NY IBD caucasian male has essentially a 0% chance of landing a job in HK at the junior level. Why? He doesn't know the languages.
THat's not a dig at caucasians btw. I walked into a printer session with a caucasion Skadden lawyer. I was thinking to myself "Ha, now i dont have to stress about translating chinese since we're gonna use english". Next thing you know, fluent mandarin with Beijing accent falls out of the guy's mouth. killself.
Enjoy.
aworldapart > ibhopeful
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C'mon guys, like you have time to worry about getting laid. This isn't a HK vs NY specific thread, just HK vs. US in general in terms of exit opps...
Uhm, have you been to Harlem/Brooklyn/Queens? Have you taken a subway in New York? Trust me, from an infrastructure/standard of living perspective, Hong Kong is definitely superior to New York. This is coming from someone who has been to both cities.
As far as aworldapart's claim that the only people who go to Hong Kong are the ones that couldn't make it in New York... a) I can tell you from personal experience that that's not true. b) Even if that's still the mentality most North Americans have right now, those who understand trends realize that that may not stay the case forever.
People on this board need to stop thinking about everything in terms of "how does this affect my chances of getting to New York?" In 10 years, that might not be the city you want to be in anymore.
To borrow a line from someone a lot smarter than me: "If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, if you were smart in 1907 you moved to New York City, and if you are smart in 2007 you move to Asia." - Jim Rogers
In the interest of full disclosure, I will not be in Hong Kong post graduation. I'm not just saying this to justify my choices. This is coming from someone who will be at a BB in New York.
And as an aside...aworldapart, no need to trash talk other people's choices. 6 months ago you were asking about which firm to work for in Hong Kong.
Did he also have the balls to say "And if you are smart in 2107, you move to Africa"?
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cruz12, wasn't trying to be "visceral." Actually, I wanted to point out the same thing you just did: poverty exists everywhere. I'm just saying that the OP doesn't need to worry about infrastructure or standard of living because from what he's going to encounter, Hong Kong will be at least on par with (if not superior to) New York. Other factors are open to debate, but this one should be a no brainer IMHO.
Making up stuff is bad as well. Margaret Ren was not "forced to retire". She moved in July from Merrill Lynch to BNP Paribas. And the reason she did that is because Merrill in HK is falling apart as we speak.
Janice Hu, Huyao Bang's granddaughter (Huyaobang is the reformist whose death INSPIRED Tiananmen square) is currently head of China Coverage at Credit Suisse. She is something like 32 or 33. She jumped from Associate to VP in 1 year. One. George Li (Li Rui Huan's) son and his grandson are both at BB's in HK.
Henry Tsai, Liu Erfei, Zhang Liping (UBS, Merrill, CS) are all normal, non-party members. They are now the rainmakers in Hong Kong.
It's good to be born with background, for sure. But what you fail to realize is that in today's China, it's also possible to cultivate relationships based on your own merit and charisma.
Oh right- that's the last good thing about HK. You will end up being friends with the sons and daughters of some of the richest and most powerful people in China. You might even marry one ;)
Sorry, by "forced" I mean due to political pressure inside the party, not from the company, but that is a story for another day.
Liu Erfei is son of a powerful Chinese provincial vice-governor, first Chinese dude to go to HBS IN 1992, Do you know how hard it is to even get a visa 17 years ago? It was less than one in thousands when I applied at Beijing in 1997.
Let's be honest here, there are a lot of stuff that we don't know, so don't be so hasty in saying someone is making stuff up on the fly.
You are totally right about the opportunities of being good friends with these "prince" and "princess", but then again I'd argue that you are being way too idealistic. Have you ever attempted to be friend with them? I know friends' parents or relatives who are in pretty high social standing and actually tried. Pfftt, man.. the princelings don't even bother to look at you.
I'm not trying to bash anyone, it's just something I wanted you to consider before moving over. It is MUCH MORE than what it appears in China.
http://www.gtnews.com/article/6239.cfm
It sounds like you had a bad experience with some of them.
There are many, many princelings in the US right now- most of them are at the Ivy Leagues. I think for the most part, they are trained to be very "di diao". No one advertises their background because in China, that's a sure fire way to get into trouble. I've gotten to befriend a couple from very powerful families (around the same level as Huyaobang)during my college stint. With exceptions of course, most of them are humble, intelligent, and kind people.
Good for you!! I haven't had any bad experiences, just heard a lot from friends. Oh btw, I was talking about one generation up, not our age.
Anyways, like you said working in Asia will have its pros and cons, it all comes down to your personal aspirations.
Heck, I'm trying to apply to HK as of now, lol.
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