As I move from postdoctoral academic pharmacology to life sciences ER, one associate who made a similar transition told me that I would need to do an internship to prove my interest in the career switch, saying it's a fact of life and we all had to do it.
Not that I mind channeling my inner DeNiro, but how old is too old to intern? Would you hire an intern that was 30? 35? 40? Older?
(Note, I am not younger than 30 nor older than 40)
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You will get dinged for your age. I would rather higher a 22 year old for an internship than a 32 year old. I would have to meet you and interview you, but on paper I don't think I would.
Thanks for the feedback TopChedder.
I should have specified that this would be in the biotech/pharma/healthcare sector, where MDs and PhDs are recruited to be associates and are typically older when they start (late 20s to early 30s). Not sure if that would influence the decision making on this topic or not.
BTW, how did that screenshot get there? I love it!
Once you get over 30 (really 25-27+) you have to have some kind of compelling reason as to why you have such a large time lapse. Look, if someone was in the military for 10 years and is now in undergrad it would make sense as to why they're a 30ish yr old intern (one of the people I mentor fits this and is at one of the HYP). Now if someone worked at pizza hut and is getting their BA in communications from some shit idaho school then no way will they really stand a chance at any BB for an internship.
Robert DeNiro did it at 70+
Lol. Beat me to it. Was gonna mention the intern movie.
For your situation it is understandable. Not easy but is possible. Could do a summer associate if you go into MBA.
Know of a guy at Jefferies who interned in his mid thirties in banking. Joined FT post-internship.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing! Anything in particular this guy did other than work his ass off?
I've worked with a 26 year old intern with a PhD in molecular biology (life science Bval). I myself was a 26 year old intern.
I would hire an intern at any age if they showed true interest in the job. That's all else equal, the problem is that all else is not equal as you will have less access to the campus reserved interview positions that are held for under graduate students.
Ah, this makes sense. I was not talking about going the traditional campus route (naturally). I saw a job post looking for an intern now (not summer position) that could transition to a FT position. I was also toying with floating the idea when contacting senior analysts, but fear that rather than determined to break in, this could be viewed as sad and desperate instead.
The monkey in the picture looks like a scholar with deep-seated views.
Agreed, but I can guarantee I do not look as old as that monkey.
Lots of great stuff here, thanks to all who have posted so far. Not saying interning is attractive to me per se, but I want to do whatever I need to do to break into ER. If pulling a DeNiro is my only avenue, then so be it!
Come on, you only clicked on this post because you have an opinion, let's hear it...
Sorry if I sound harsh, but I think your approach is a bit flawed: you get an opinion from one friend that in order to get to A you need to do B. You do not question this and immediately lose your whole focus of A and come here asking only about B. In the business world you have to act more strategically than that. I wouldn't say that it's impossible to make the transition you want, but you'll need a different kind of thinking. I suggest you re-evaluate your means and ends and then come back here and ask questions that will actually help you get what you want.
Not to sound too harsh myself, but this is a fairly large assumption on your part. I have another post on this board asking for advice in a different area, and I use the WSO to fill in a few blanks that my other networking efforts have left empty so far. As you mentioned, this was one person who told me one thing. This seemed a bit ridiculous to me, so I consult the WSO community to see how realistic this one thing seemed to them, which garners mixed results and has been very informative to me.
You take this to mean that I have scrapped my entire job search strategy to pursue this single avenue? I don't put my entire history into every post and turn each one into a TLDR, but regardless I don't see how what I wrote could lead you to this conclusion and that is a very narrow assumption to make absent other information.
Don't quote me but maybe the CFA could help here?
Fair point, but assuming that OP's age is between 30 and 40 I don't think the risk/reward is worth it. Ideally, he/she would clear it in at least 2.5 years, making him/her at least in his/her mid-thirties.
Level One CFA would help immensely, but that's still 3 months away. It would be nice to find a job that pays money before that time. Of course, the same argument works for the hypothetical internship.
Why couldn't OP just give his age? for some reason that frustrated me.
I was trying to generate a discussion to find out what age different people would consider. Adding my exact age would have only biased the responses toward that specific number.
That said I am 37.
I was 35 when I interned during my MBA at a boutique M&A firm established by ex-BB rainmakers in London. Worked my arse off to get it ... Spent more time networking than studying.
It is possible but they'll need to see and meet you first, as you suspected. I am mid thirties and was hired as an intern in a top CRE investment sales shop to make a career switch from internal audits. No one who saw me on paper would hire me (probably due to age), I tried for years. So I networked my way into an internship. It helped that I look 10 years younger than my age. I was just so grateful for the opportunity and I think they sensed that. I worked my ass off and have been worth it to them. I'm about to become broker.
Congrats! And thanks for sharing.
I'm also a 37 year old postdoc moving out of academia. I'm starting a job in management consulting at a life science boutique in April. I would agree with your friend's assessment that an internship is important, and to some degree necessary. When you're that far down one career path, it's critical to demonstrate interest in a new career, or you risk coming across as someone who had an unsuccessful postdoc and can't get a tenure-track position, so you're desperately looking for something else to pay the bills.
That being said, internship isn't the only way to demonstrate commitment to a new career. Some universities have finance/investment clubs at the graduate level, and will likely welcome postdocs too. Graduate consulting clubs are perhaps more likely, and can be helpful in building up your vocabulary and business sense. At a bare minimum, I'd seek these out.
I didn't do a formal internship, but worked on a couple of pro-bono projects for early-stage startups in the life sciences. If you're near a biotech incubator perhaps you can consider doing some part-time work with a startup there. These businesses are in need of all sorts of expertise, and are often short on time and money. You could help with market research or preparing pitches for funding. While these things don't equate to an ER internship, they show that you're interested in more than science, and also provide great talking points at interviews. If you're anything like me, your CV is full of academic achievement, but lacking in leadership/teamwork/soft skills.
I'll close in saying that my age definitely was noticed in interviews. It creates expectations around your abilities, and firms don't necessarily know what to do with you. I know at two firms I was considered for positions at the level I applied for, along with the one above it. I even shot myself in the foot a bit with one firm, where I expressed my own concerns about starting at the bottom alongs fresh grads. If you're looking at firms with a track record of hiring PhDs, then this becomes less of a concern.
Absolutely this!!! It is so hard to get away from this stigma, especially on paper. It's easy for me to convey the reasons why I made the conscious decision to pursue something besides academia, but until I get the chance this will always be the first assumption.
Unfortunately I missed the boat on these opportunities as I didn't know about them until the postdoc was already ending. When I get in touch with an analyst though I have recently started to offer to work on any projects with which they could use an extra hand. Regarding the soft skills, I've been able to identify a lot of these throughout my academic experience and have worked hard to highlight them on the resume.
I think I've handled this well so far. No matter what career I switch to from academia, I am likely to be surrounded by coworkers a decade younger than me, and reporting to a boss that is either my age or younger. This won't be limited to ER, and I made my peace with that as part of the decision to seek a new career. I look forward to the challenge!
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Congrats on the consulting gig!
I am a 37 year old Executive MBA student who took the unconventional path of OCR for IB summer associate recruiting. There will be hurdles, though you need to keep pushing to get what you want. I landed a IB summer associate role. I made significant sacrifices to make the summer a possibility, and worked hard every day. However, I did not receive a return offer. (They were only bringing back 2 out of 3 summer associates, which I was told in the spring. I was hopeful for all 3 of us, as they had brought in a new MD and were starting to staff up). My "competition" were two FTMBAs that had more relevant experience (consulting, accounting), and were maybe 29 years old. I came away with solid references, which has led to a few interviews in the fall. Alas, I am still hunting for IB. While we are talking ER, I did do an unpaid ER internship. The role was great exposure to the industry, which helped with the IB internship, though was not designed to lead to a offer. I have been thinking about sharing my experience for some time, and could do a more detailed post. Feel free to PM me.
Thanks for sharing, I would definitely share the whole story in a post. It helps to reflect on what you've done so far and you never know what kind of advice you're going to get.
This whole thread has been a great conversation to have, thanks to all who have posted so far.
Who else has an opinion? Anybody have experience working with an "old" as a subordinate?
It will be harder than for a 22 year old with just an undergrad but definitely possible. I know this because I did it and I worked with someone who did it. Let me expand a little.
I finished my PhD in maths at a top UK uni in 2015. I got interested in IB and finance when I started my PhD and wasn't quite sure if I wanted to carry on doing something technical/scientific (like quant or trading) or make a switch to a more business related job like M&A/IB.
To find out if M&A could suit me I decided to do a summer internship during my PhD (one year before graduating) and started applying the year before that (two years before graduating). I had read all those posts and websites saying that PhD --> M&A (even more so for a maths PhD !) was practically impossible but I thought that I had to give a go.
I embarked on a great journey and learned a lot about myself and what I really want for my future. I possibly had the worst background ever to break into the industry. I grew up in continental Europe and did a physics undergrad and masters degree. I then moved to the UK for my maths PhD. I didn't know anyone working in finance, had never taken a finance course in my life and had no network whatsoever. On top of all that I was closer to 30 than 25.
The first thing I did was read general finance and economics books. I also read a book on M&A and valuation. I made sure I was up to date on the latest big M&A deals. I then applied everywhere, and I really mean everywhere, where a summer IB internship was a possibility, from BB down to some small boutiques. As you may have guessed I rarely heard back from those companies but two of them came back to me quickly and invited me for a first round interview.
I passed both of them. The first round was the same for both. I spoke to a few people and all they wanted to know was why I wanted to work in IB. They all said that my background made no sense whatsoever and that I should be a quant. I knew that having a story to tell was important but never imagined it to be so important. It took me weeks to think about every possible questions that I could be asked and prepare an answer for all of them, and it worked.
I then went to the superday. I absolutely bombed the first one. I had a one on one with an MD and there was no connection whatsoever. I suspect that's why I was rejected. On my superday for the second firm everything went smoothly. I probably had to explain at least 10 times what the heck I was doing there. There was a group valuation exercice. We had to do a quick valuation of a company and then pitch it to the other candidates. I nailed the maths (I couldn't afford making a math mistake!) and they really liked how I pitched it (synergies, geographical/strategic expansion etc..). They called me the next day and I was offered a summer M&A internship.
I spent my summer with this company and learned a lot about IB and finance. My associate had a PhD in pharmacology, so this bank had a record of hiring PhDs. The guy started his career in a healthcare coverage group at another bank and said it wasn't too hard to break into such a group if you had a life science background. It's always good for a bank to have someone able to explain to a client why the manufacturing process or research of company A would nicely integrate into company B because of such and such technical reason. I sat on a conference call where this happened and my associate started talking biology with the head of research of a fortune 500 company. The MD face was priceless.
At the end of my internship I decided that M&A wasn't for me. I really had a great experience but I felt that I wanted to use my maths skills more. That's when I decided that quantitative trading was my top choice. It was one year before the end of my PhD.
At this point I applied to quant trading and quant research jobs but also applied to IB jobs, just in case I couldn't break into the quant world. Interestingly, once my M&A internship was on my CV, I got invited to many final rounds at both investment banks and private equity shops. I went to two PE final rounds, although I didn't really want those jobs. It was very ironic that I was able to go further into the IB/PE interview process than the quant ones at this point. I think it shows how much my IB internship made me progress and helped me get better at ib interviews. Anyway, after a while I got an offer for a front office quant trading job and took it.
My advice would be to try and get an internship. With your background, it makes sense to transition to a life science/healthcare coverage group and some banks would welcome you for the reasons I mentioned above. If you don't land an offer, you will have gained lots of interview experience that will be beneficial for your future. If you do get an offer, it will dramatically help you for your future job hunting. If you like the internship you may want to stay there full-time, who knows.
Liked your success story, +1. It's often assumed Ph.Ds. are good for academia and research work only, but that's a very narrow view.
Very true, and not just from outside academia. There is a lot of negative reinforcement at the university level that suggests that's all PhDs are good for as well, and I have met many grad students and postdocs that truly believe that is the only career for which they have been prepared.
Great share, and great advice. Thanks for posting your story. I can now report that I decided to apply for the internship and got an email back 2 hours later to set up a phone call for Tuesday. I may be on my way...
Thanks for sharing. I'm also a math PhD looking to switch to finance. Your story definitely gives me hope!
To old for internship? (Originally Posted: 02/08/2015)
So, I began my studies pretty late, and now I am thinking about working for some time before beginning my master's degree. Hence, I will be in my late twenties when I'll apply for internship during my master. Therefore I wonder; How old is to old for an internship?
You are never too old for an internship. Especially in your situation. In fact, here I'd recommend it.
not if your reason is good (like being in the military). Otherwise, unless you're an MBA business schools">M7 or similar MBA candidate, yea you are. Nobody is hiring 24 year old+ interns in such a case.
Not everyone is from the US - and there is a big difference between US and EU
On topic No you are not too old - but you will be older than most other interns. In Europe it is common to finish your studies later, since most students, especially Scandinavian, finish a 5 year Bachelor/UG + Master and might take a year off between High School and University
i think if you are in your twenties, you are not too old at all. dont be too hard on yourself!
You're not too old. No one will even know how old you are anyway. Unless you look really old and people get curious it's a total non-starter of an issue.
As far as I know, no firm in the Street asks about applicants's age.
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