Investment Banking is Broken

I just left IB and went entrepreneurship way, so this is a bit of a rant post and a throwaway account, but felt like I need to share.

With all do respect to hard-working individuals out there - investment banking industry is broken and absolutely worthless. The advisory side is the most useless, pathetic and ego-driven things in the business world, over.

The Materials

Where do I start. Creation of those meaningless memorandums, pitchbooks, bake-off presentations, company and industry profiles was the one most laughable thing I have ever done in my work.
Sell-side info memo? Oh, you mean we are putting bunch of bullshit on 50 pages, make it pretty and send around the world to people who either won't look at it or spend 15 sec skimming through? Fuck it, sign me up

The presentations, decks, materials, whatever you call it in M&A are beyond my logical thinking. Why in the name of God would you do a ten-page product overview section with bunch of screenshots and retarded texts, like "seamless login process"? Who reads that? And those pitchbooks? This is a mf joke, which investor even looks at it?

Materials, the thing juniors slave away and spend so much time on - are 99% useless, deleted, not looked at. This is the harsh truth. The only thing that matters from the creation perspective is modelling - advanced operating models are actually useful for the buyer and provide at least SOME value (given all the assumptions are probably bullshit anyways)

Do you know how deals are being made? By talking, by high-level numbers, by synergies, by adding actual value. What value add for the biotech company is the sleazy banker with his stupid industry deck?

The Ego

Everyone has the ego. Interns have ego, cause they work in a big fancy firm. Analysts have ego due to spending nights on meaningless documents and thinking they are big swinging dicks. Associates have ego, cause they think they can manage juniors now, but in reality just kiss their superiors asses. VPs have ego thinking they are almost MDs, while they still work nights. MDs have ego, cause they believe they are financial Gods, but in reality they are kissing clients asses, skipping kids birthday due to another useless video call and lying to everyone around.

The Chaos

It's beyond me why IB is so poorly managed. Literally every single MD I worked with has been a terrible manager. No time management skills. No respect to employees. Zero logical thinking. I know everyone is busy. I know they are doing billion dollar deals and we are just slaving away over Excel and PowerPoint, but for the love of God it's JUST BANKING. I have friends in biotech, field oil, doind business functions in military, government and NOWHERE is as bad as in banking. This is just laughable. Oil engineers can split work and manage time, but two analysts cannot work on the same model? Give me a break.

Now don't get me wrong - IB is needed. They are matchmakers, connecting investors and companies together. But the industry from the inside - is a fucking joke. Better management skills and this would be a 1000% better job than it's now.

Comments (118)

Funniest
Feb 6, 2019

I stopped reading at " with all do respect"

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Feb 9, 2019

I stopped reading when I remembered I have a fucking term paper do

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Feb 9, 2019

.

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Feb 6, 2019

"investment banking industry is broken and absolutely worthless. The advisory side is the most useless, pathetic and ego-driven things in the business world, over."

"Now don't get me wrong - IB is needed. They are matchmakers, connecting investors and companies together. "

Something doesn't line up here....

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Feb 8, 2019

Yes, sorry probably ranting too much - I meant that most of the work is useless, ego-driven and absolutely not needed. Decks no one looks at, industry slides just to prove a client you can copy stuff from reports, etc.

The actual IB value is in knowing investors and connecting them to buyers. But not in the meaningless pretty slides.

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Feb 15, 2019

You say your going down the entrepreneurial route, what are you looking to do?

I used to work in trading, a bit more intellectually stimulating i think but even less actual value being added.

And yea of course banking is broken, there honestly should be some way of dismantling it. With all the disfunction and overpaid monkeys there really should be some way of eating that value

Feb 8, 2019

Dude, finance stopped "adding value" years ago. This shit is about hanging out in beautiful offices and collecting big-ass pay checks.

I'm other words, get over yourself. If you want to "change the world", go be an "entrepreneur" and design some app or some dumb shit. This is all just a big fucking game. Enjoy it.

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Feb 11, 2019

That's not all of it.

IB is a sales job and the fundamental middleman, but it isn't going away for a pretty simple reason.

It feeds off human psychology. Specifically the biggest that fuels IB is the egos and elitism that exists within business. Doing a deal by buying a company listed for sale on a database is well....boring. Doing a deal that involves lots of meetings and conferences at Goldman Sachs with Partners in very expensive suits makes you feel like you're very, very, important and prestigious.

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Feb 19, 2019

Not a big follower of these threads but "change the world" does not mean create an app/useless startup. Creating a technology that wipes your ass for you, while it could be a unicorn valuation due to undisciplined vc investing, doesn't change the world or shift the curve.

If you want to change the world, agreed, study/focus in an industry/science and commit to building a product/service through focused study. Google changed the world and was born out of Stanford PHDs in search technology. We have yet to see another Google in 20 years notwithstanding increased VC spending in tech sector.

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Feb 6, 2019

Your title had typo:

"Investment Banking Is Broken" should read: "Another Banking Analyst Broken"

Pls fix. Thx.

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Feb 8, 2019

You're an Analyst and disagree with what I say? Do you like creating logo pages? Sugarcoat it as you want, you are a glorified graphic designer with a bit of Excel skill, that's it

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Feb 9, 2019

Haha you're not wrong. I hear you - I think most people giving you shit in this post have probably felt the exact same way a number of times... I personally waver between: job is very sustainable - job sucks every couple months or so.

I just try to keep my head down and trudge on. But btw, I have dope PPT skills too.

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Feb 11, 2019

Lmao rikkity rikkity rekt son

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Feb 7, 2019
icantdothisanymore:

I have friends in biotech, field oil, doind business functions in military, government and NOWEHERE is as bad as in banking.

NOWHERE. pls fix. thx.

'I'm jacked... JACKED TO THE TITS!!'

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Feb 7, 2019
Chuck Rhoades:
icantdothisanymore:

I have friends in biotech, field oil, doind business functions in military, government and NOWEHERE is as bad as in banking.

NOWHERE. pls fix. thx.

Seems to me like the OP just sucked at his job

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Feb 8, 2019

Oh yeah, I made a typo = I sucked at my job
Classic IB mentality, glorify pretty pages and surgical attention to details, but don't think for a second that this whole deck could be a short email and the company doesn't give a shit about your 'potential strategic suggestions', because it's simply never gonna happen.

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Feb 11, 2019

Dude you are easily the crankiest poster on this forum, never fails

Feb 7, 2019

So i take it you miss IB?

Feb 7, 2019

Pitchdecks are not just an IB thing. Everyone in business uses them. And while just 1 slide might be useful to 1 person/team/group, the other 15 will be useful to 15 different groups/teams.

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Feb 8, 2019

Absolutely disagree. You create a useless M&A pitchbook and crank 5 industry pages. What for? Why the fuck would you do it? Just to prove a company you know your market? They know it 10000x better than you, and know very well that you just pulled the data from the industry reports.

99% of presentation work in m&a is just recreation of existing data and making it pretty. Tell me this isn't fucked up.

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Most Helpful
Feb 8, 2019

Like members of a cult, most of the people on WSO are in too deep to admit the massive flaws in their industry and that they spend countless hours working on, as you said, completely meaningless bullshit. The more you try to disabuse them of their delusions, the more ardently they will defend them.

I, however, enjoyed your rant and wish you great success in the future.

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Feb 8, 2019
icantdothisanymore:

Absolutely disagree. You create a useless M&A pitchbook and crank 5 industry pages. What for? Why the fuck would you do it? Just to prove a company you know your market? They know it 10000x better than you, and know very well that you just pulled the data from the industry reports.

99% of presentation work in m&a is just recreation of existing data and making it pretty. Tell me this isn't fucked up.

It's sales. You're convincing someone to see your side of it. Assume everyone has the same information, but the way you piece it together to tell your side of the story (namely, why someone should buy your product), is how you create a relationship. It's not rocket science, because it isn't rocket science. But the detail is heavily emphasized, because the presentation of the story matters greatly for fostering that affinity for your service.

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Jul 28, 2019

While I don't agree with all of what you've said, both pitchbooks and IMs are completely useless and a waste of time, and you realize this when you're on the buyside and you simply skip to the financials section. Everything else is shuffling images around and thinking of 600 ways (including trying to come up with new visual components to mix things up) to emphasize the same investment highlights over and over again. Gigantic waste of everyone's time. Pitches and IMs should be 10 pages maximum, the Executive Summary is usually all that's needed.

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Feb 15, 2019
iBankedUp:

Pitchdecks are not just an IB thing. Everyone in business uses them.

Real estate brokers use them. They are equally as trash-able.

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Feb 15, 2019
CRE:
iBankedUp:

Pitchdecks are not just an IB thing. Everyone in business uses them.

Real estate brokers use them. They are equally as trash-able.

I think the funny thing is, you guys have expectations for work that just aren't realistic. When I was in college, I thought work with the right job/career, would be like Suits everyday, just kicking ass and taking names. But work can't actually be shown on tv because there's no action. If you're not ok with that, then maybe someone needs to take your spot.

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Feb 15, 2019

HEY, my Neighborhood Highlights on downtown Portland, ME are EXACTLY what buyers need in order to pull the trigger on that boutique 139 unit property named after some poem by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow!.... yeah you're right. We're full of sh!t...

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Feb 19, 2019
CRE:
iBankedUp:

Pitchdecks are not just an IB thing. Everyone in business uses them.

Real estate brokers use them. They are equally as trash-able.

To be fair, most real estate broker pitch books I've seen are like 5-10 pages, with a lot of that being meaningful info like rent rolls or expense data. I used to be an IB analyst - those were 40 page books full of random, meaningless league tables and fluff. It's the difference between 50% of the page count being meaningful, and 5%.

Feb 8, 2019

This post has some merit, but a transaction process needs materials. Clients needs something to present with, underwriters need something to work off, bankers need something to win a mandate with. And someone has to make these.

Decks are "useless" until a banker is presenting to a client and the deck is shit or someone passes on a deal because a CIM is lackluster or not coherent. And end of the day, perception matters. Things have a "feel" and "look". Compare a top banks decks to a small, local boutique. Tell me the heft of the pages, gloss, color coordination, etc doesn't give you an impression.

And what exactly should junior people do? If your opinion is correct, analyst and associates should be canned, not given higher level work. Junior staff does the grunt work because finance is largely an apprenticeship.

Little mistakes also cause people to wonder if there are mistakes elsewhere. And when a decimal point determines millions of dollars of value either way, yeah, precision is key.

EDIT - OP, best of luck. Life is about doing what you want. Plenty of good paying jobs and no need to be miserable either. I do think opinions change over time. I remember meticulously preparing signature pages for a partner and obviously being annoyed. Years later you realize how much time someone doing that shit for you saves you when you run around doing other things.

That useless deck you make could play a part in winning a mandate or selling the firms story. You won't see it now, but when your page flipping with clients and someone else makes your deck, then you'll see it.

Feb 8, 2019
TNA:

And end of the day, perception matters. Things have a "feel" and "look". Compare a top banks decks to a small, local boutique. Tell me the heft of the pages, gloss, color coordination, etc doesn't give you an impression.

The tasteful thickness of it. My God, it even has a watermark!

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Feb 8, 2019
dsch:
TNA:

And end of the day, perception matters. Things have a "feel" and "look". Compare a top banks decks to a small, local boutique. Tell me the heft of the pages, gloss, color coordination, etc doesn't give you an impression.

The tasteful thickness of it. My God, it even has a watermark!

Omg, thank you. I love everything about Pat Bateman. This is pure gold.

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Feb 11, 2019

This is actually what goes through clients' heads though... appearances matter more than content to a lot of people

Feb 9, 2019

I see your point, but in my opinion the main dealbreaker is exactly this type of thought - 'decks were in banking since forever, we use them to impress clients with our fancy graphs and that's how it's going to be'

Why? Just tell me objectively, which client gives a shit about some made up industry page? Or those 17 company profiles you send as potential acquisition targets (which usually make zero sense for the buyer)?

Let's say you're 'exploring strategic add-ons' for Disney. You make a 5-page profile on Netflix. What for? Do you really think Disney people don't know Netflix? They know it ten times better than you ever will. Why spend a night on creating a useless material? Why not just bring it up in discussion? Or do one rough page with stuff that really adds value (some high levels numbers, creative syngery ideas, etc)?

Same goes with those weird deadlines. How in earth is it possible that an Analyst has to work over xmas? What could possibly happen if the work is submitted a bit later? Nothing, it's not a fucking open-heart surgery, just a few powerpoint pages. Client's won't care. No one works over Christmas. It's just those sleazy MDs trying to prove the client how diligent and hardworking they are, throwing their own people under the bus. There is zero self-respect and confidence in banking.

My point is banking is not innovating at all. Same old weird ego-driven mentality and showing-off to impress clients (?) who usually couldn't care less.

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Feb 9, 2019

Everything you said here is 100% truth. The clients/corporates NEVER work over important holidays. They barely even check emails. I used to laugh when the banks would send me crap over Christmas, new years, etc. Was such a joke. Some douchebag completely manufactured a timeline and we're like "why"

We would go to management presentations and the clueless bankers would go over their stupid decks. As soon as they got to the useless fluff (about 95% of the material) the EVP or CFO would cut them off and say "we dont need to give through all of this." They would basically takeover.

The funny thing is when the CFO did takeover, the overly rehearsed bankers would pull back and defer to management. Was such a joke. The banks job was to basically put together a pointless deck, set up a data room, and try to hide material, adverse information from buyer (but in a legal way).

Someone basically already hit the nail on the head: it is this way because it has always been this way. Things are done certain ways more out of a sense of tradition than anything else.

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Feb 11, 2019

It's true in the Bulge Bracket.

What you said is NOT necessarily true in MM or lower MM. Those markets are significantly more diverse so an IB that knows the space, has connections, and can perform industry research to matchmake clients who may not necessarily be familiar with each other due to being in different geographic markets or product verticals can be a significant value add.

That's especially true once you start getting into areas like PE owned firms, founder-operated growth companies, and ones like that who are expanding rapidly but don't yet have a fully built out corporate development function.

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Feb 18, 2019

Great context

Feb 8, 2019

Can we assume that your entrepreneurial effort is either a boutique investment bank that will engage in none of the BS that you are complaining about, or a software company that will automate it all?

Feb 8, 2019

Although not in the IB world, there are some parallels. Vividly remember from 15 yrs ago a large estate planning case (which resulted in a 30M life insurance policy). The rep, my rep, went in with his "pitch book". This guy is a CFA type (actually has passed a few parts) and put together a bound thick document discussing the history of taxation, rates, loop holes, effect on client's overall estate, lost opportunity cost, etc.) He was meeting with client and client's tax team. I told him going in there was no way they would read or remotely care about any of this crap. Keep it high level, etc. Of course he didn't listen and didn't get the sale. We went back a year later (they still hadn't done anything) and focused on what their pain points were. No pitch book. No prepared material at all. Just a conversation ( which I led because the rep isn't that type). Spent the whole time talking about them, not about what we can do for them (nobody cares about that in any level of selling - too many sales guys in every industry make it about them instead of the client - never understood that). And like it usually works regardless of sale size, they told us their concerns, goals, what they needed to move forward, etc. Ultimately got the case and a fat 6 figure commission (the rep- he should have split it with me but whatever). I did OK too.

Consultative selling is the goal. Even more important with larger, more complex scenarios like IB. The whole pitch book thing is kind of crazy. Let's throw a bunch of stuff at them, regardless of their issues, and see what sticks. That's purely a numbers game and produces very low conversion rates. Consultative selling is about problem solving and vastly moves the percentages in your direction. Wish the banking world would realize that. They'd actually have greater success with less manpower.

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Feb 11, 2019

I will warn that there's some players doing exactly that. My old boutique I worked at during school approached most of their deals that way and is now opening offices in new cities.

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Feb 9, 2019

I read posts like this and wonder where it's all coming from. So many different experiences in this industry, but all I can say is I do not feel remotely the same about our firm and our culture. Sure the pitchbooks are overdone, a lot of the material is clearly filler and for looks, but that's part of the gig. Where I am, some MD's get that and don't ask for all the nonsense.

I do feel like making those books is a valuable skill for someone who plans to spend a career in business, it's embarassing to see some decks put together by people who don't have the same attention to detail. At the end of the day, as an entrepreneur, you're trying to get credibility and build a brand so having a crisp investor presentation can help.

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Feb 15, 2019
finbrah:

I do feel like making those books is a valuable skill for someone who plans to spend a career in business, it's embarassing to see some decks put together by people who don't have the same attention to detail. At the end of the day, as an entrepreneur, you're trying to get credibility and build a brand so having a crisp investor presentation can help.

Those slide decks are very far from a crisp presentation. Unless your business is slide decks, it's not a particularly useful skill.

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Feb 9, 2019

So much hate for profiles - but most clients don't know most of the companies and actually ask for it as follow up if you don't put it in there. I actually had a client ask me yesterday afternoon to make / send him profile on 8-10 fairly sizeable public companies cause not everyone in his company knows what they do.

The magic is that profiles should be minimal work. Most BBs have India team that'll make it for you in a day or two. Then you can just price update the stuff and check management team and refresh for next 2-3 years. Not sure why the heartburn.

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Feb 10, 2019

Most large companies which hire BB banks already have Corporate Strategy, marketing, product teams that size the competitive landscape. At the large tech company I'm at (part of FAANG) even engineering teams do diligence on competitors/industry trends

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Feb 13, 2019

Idk man I'm a VP and our $35bn client asked for profiles on bunch of public companies because they are just not as familiar. I'll help them figure out what these companies are because I'm actually tight with them over the years from deals that signed and didn't sign, but without breaking some analyst back on a Saturday night. And this is def not the first time over the years some client asked for profiles during the meeting or just as follow up. It is what it is

Feb 10, 2019

While true, the most laughable part about this post is the assumption that the "entrepreneurship way" or those friends in other industries have it any differently (Hint: Your friends are lying). Substitute IB for any other career of choice in your rant and every single point applies without distinction. Congrats on finally realizing that the world of work is a dumpster fire full of BS. Considering it took you 20+ years of life on this planet to figure it out, I imagine you have a rather long and bumpy road ahead.

On a more inviting note, I welcome you to a world of truth and cynicism. A world where we don't lie to ourselves that the grass is always greener and one where we sleep at night knowing that the garbage we produce at work just pays the bills.

"So this is a Harvard bar, huh? I thought there'd be equations and shit on the wall."

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Feb 10, 2019

Exactly, even the most "innovative" tech firms have teams spending countless hours churning information to decks that are constantly overlooked. For whatever reason, there's just a lot of importance placed on reaffirming beliefs in most business functions; while, using data/modeling to get to this is interesting, translating it into decks isn't

Mar 22, 2019

I largely disagree with this. There is a difference between pragmatism/practicality/efficiency and doing what's been done in the past simply because it was what was done in the past.

Anyone that can take that and innovate to become more efficient and add more value while having the depth of understanding and foresight to know what is truly necessary and not fluff will always beat out those who don't.

That is true for any industry and any company. What complicates this whole dynamic is that this tone needs to be set by those higher up in the food chain. The levels below where this stops becoming the case is where your job will suck.

Apr 29, 2019

the truth shall set you free

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Feb 11, 2019

There is no perfect place in this world. It is the same in automotive sector as well because I came from that background. I guess we just need to enjoy what we are doing regardless of industry we are in.

Feb 11, 2019

They aren't better managers because they've never had to be.

A few of the reasons are dead horses at this point: firms like Goldman, BAML, etc. haven't had to innovate due to regulatory environment that (partially due to regulatory capture) harms smaller competitors and favors large players with increasing consolidation.

Second is that the "prestige" mindset pervasive. You have a vicious cycle where these firms get the most "prestigious" applicants, who then get into that mentality themselves, and it loops again infinity. I can guarantee you from knowing some non-target guys in IB that there are a LOT of them who will absolutely demolish any of their target peers in terms of corporate finance competency.

To that point, IB firms could dramatically improve both their value add and their overall level of competency if they stopped hiring fresh undergrads completely. Were I running an investment bank I would do my analyst/associate hiring entirely from the pool of corporate finance departments with 1-2 years of experience at the appropriate level, from firms that match each group's coverage. These guys will often be from "prestigious" backgrounds but more importantly they will be dramatically better than any undergrad hire at the actual analyst/associate work. Most will also have some friends at that company that give them a networking advantage over fresh undergrad hires for those that stick around into higher ranks at the company.

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Feb 12, 2019

I never understood why firms didn't do this because I totally agree that some of the initial ramp up in IB is just being at your first real job / internship especially if you're from a liberal arts background. I guess that's how the industry has always been and unless exit ops like PE change their requirements / recruiting, IB won't change either.

Feb 13, 2019
Attack_Chihuahua:

They aren't better managers because they've never had to be.

This point will be missed on most.

Attack_Chihuahua:

Second is that the "prestige" mindset pervasive. You have a vicious cycle where these firms get the most "prestigious" applicants, who then get into that mentality themselves, and it loops again infinity.

The egos of the "rich" or the "elite" is always excused under the incorrect belief that they always work harder than everyone else.

Attack_Chihuahua:

To that point, IB firms could dramatically improve both their value add and their overall level of competency if they stopped hiring fresh undergrads completely.

This might come true if robots can push out standardized pitchdecks and models anyway. The only value add I see out of analysts is essentially stuff robots can do. The higher level process management starts from the Associate level up. Where the need for this need for an army of eager, due paying youngsters, is created by not actual work, just a lot of grinding through the muck until they can be called up to fill the actual duties of the job.

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Feb 16, 2019

Would you say that hiring would become much like law where you'd need an MBA to get into banking if this was the case? Wouldn't this also force buyside houses that rely on IBD analyst class intakes to create their own training programs for junior/post-UG talent?

Feb 13, 2019

Not following this. You'd exclusively hire analysts from other firms laterally, after they notched a year or two of experience? And what would you call them? Analysts, or associates? Regardless, how excited do you think they're going to be to not have anyone below them to push down all the mindless work (some of which doesn't really need to be done, but a lot of which does).

Why would someone leave (for example) Morgan Stanley to go join your firm and revert to lowest-man-on-the-totem-pole status, right as he's starting to get out from under that.

tanstaafl...

Feb 13, 2019

I think he means IB would be open to other channels. For example, a healthcare FP&A analyst with moderate-to-good excel modeling skills and industry knowledge, would be competitive for analyst positions at top banks.

Feb 11, 2019

You think there is less time being wasted / management is better in the military...?

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Feb 11, 2019

This may come as a shock to most but there are very few careers that are established that produce legitimate work at 22. Whether you think IB, Consulting, Software, or Product Management work, there is little chance you are doing anything that will be deeply impactful.

The biggest misconception is that the grass is greener on the other side. The start-up life seems so freeing and lucrative but people don't mention the borderline insanity people have to go through before something works out, if it does.

I don't know what you meant by the "entrepreneurship" route because of how frequently used the word is but I wish you the best.

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Mar 22, 2019

The perfect career is just finding the shit sandwich that you are happiest eating

Feb 12, 2019

If you're pitching for a deal that will pay $10-20m in fees then you can be damn sure an extra 50k worth of effort on the pitchbook is worth it. Sorry that there's actual work involved in the job.

Feb 13, 2019

So OP, do you mind telling us a little bit about the entrepreneurship route you left IB for?

Feb 13, 2019

Probably not. The beauty of a rant is throwing a tantrum with false assumptions and no accountability

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Feb 15, 2019

Sure.

My & my friend founded a vertical SaaS-product and just raised our $3m seed round from the top fund. Growing very quickly with healthy financials and profitable soon.

Does it satisfy you? Or you'd prefer a meaningless startup to prove your stupid point?

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Feb 15, 2019

OP sounds like a massive beta cuck who is one of those idealistic millenials who wants to 'make a difference' while using it as a platform to patronize and come off as superior to everyone else.

Everyone knows that IB is hollow, and half the shit IBers do can get tossed into the trash, and its contribution to society is debatable. It is, however, necessary. It is also a proving ground which separates the men from the boys, tests your mental and physical will to succeed, which is a powerful resume builder and distinguishes you from the pack. Most people aren't in IB to 'create value'. They're there to kick ass and chew bubble gum. Rightly or wrongly lasting a few years in IB can make your career if you have the will and determination to make it.

The OP sounds like a whiney little beta about the fact he couldn't hack it, and is using justifying his move by making it sound morally tenuous.

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Feb 15, 2019

If you want to get away from people with inflated egos working on ultimately useless self-promoting nonsense and obsessed with looking sexy, you did the right thing by joining the startup industry.

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Feb 15, 2019

I see what you did there.

Feb 15, 2019

No need for an irony. You're partially right, but I've met so many smart entrepreneurs and VCs that banking does not stand a chance.

Most important thing? They do not care about bullshit. They care about metrics, numbers, operations, REAL STUFF. Not industry positioning on a slide.

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Feb 15, 2019

Real metrics and numbers like Community-Adjusted EBITDA

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Feb 16, 2019

It sounds like you're having a wonderful honeymoon, but I think there is probably some bullshit tech peeps do care about: vanity metrics, speaking at conferences, sounding smart, etc.

Long story short, there's a pile of bullshit in every industry, but I hope you find more happiness in this next one

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Feb 15, 2019

And?

Feb 15, 2019

I get it man. I feel your pain and 100% agree. Some of the people in the comments wont undestand cause they havent been in the field long enough.

Feb 15, 2019

This industry is pretty simple - the end goal in IB is to make money. As long as people in IB who matter (i.e. MDs and above) are making money, it's not "broken". Last I checked, they're doing pretty well, so why bother changing anything?

To be honest your post oozes with arrogance/ignorance. Not sure how you deluded yourself into thinking the purpose of these jobs is to cater to the junior employees. No one cares as long as the people in charge are getting paid. You might wanna work on adjusting this attitude otherwise I promise you, you're in for a wild ride. Welcome to the real world.

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Feb 17, 2019

So you're just telling OP to suck it up because reality sucks?

Well at least they're trying to change it, how about you?

Feb 18, 2019

So you consider leaving IB to go into entrepreneurship and then posting an "IB sucks" rant thread on an anonymous message board as "trying to change it"? Please...

I'm just trying to explain the reality - most people tend to get disappointed when their expectations don't match reality. An easy way to avoid disappointment is to adjust expectations to something realistic.

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Mar 22, 2019

Idk. I actually do think that things are broken in the industry solely because of the alternatives offered. When your smartest hires have no desire to continue in the industry given the alternatives in the world then you will have a serious problem in a couple of decades. I think that is the main reason so many firms are trying to change the culture.

Feb 15, 2019

I think that there are a many kernels of truth to the rant and the subsequent backlash in the comments. Sorry for the long response but here's my take.

I remember having similar thoughts when I was analyst: "Who's going to read this?" "I'm being paid to copy/paste logos. This is useless, I'm not getting any skills", etc. I can say that I was unequivocally wrong.

No matter what job you have or what industry you're working in, putting together pretty PPT decks will almost certainly be involved. It's not limited to just Finance roles either. Sure, it may not be the most "exciting" or "fun" aspect of a job, but the secret here is that very few (if any) jobs are "fun." It's a job, you're being paid to perform a task. And if you don't want to do it, your company doesn't care. There's a line of applicants waiting outside that will do it with a smile.

I remember that when I was in banking I wanted to "work on deals"...meanwhile I had no idea what that even meant. I had no clue the amount of work that goes into getting a deal signed, dealing with lawyers, negotiations, finding financing, and closing it. I was short-sighted because I was mad that my role was putting together a deck with a bunch of graphics and little to no real analysis.

However, since leaving banking I've worked on M&A, capital raises, board decks, etc. from a corporate perspective. It's amazing how something from years ago that I thought I'd never use or remember comes back to help me. When I'm sitting in meetings with a CEO or CFO of the public company I work for, and they are weighing the prospects of an acquisition, I've been able to contribute by remembering something a VP or MD said or did during a meeting I was in years ago. When my CFO needs Board slides in a matter of hours and I am the only one getting them done on time, those PPT skills came back to help. When we're trying to close an M&A deal and it requires weekend hours, or 18 hour days, those long nights in banking serve as a precursor. I know that I can do it because I've done it before.

What I am trying to get across is, there are a lot of fringe benefits/intangible skills you gain in banking that I don't think you'll get many other places. Banking, like a lot of jobs, has a big sales component, and psychological element to it. Learning to interpret what people are "really" saying, reading the room, learning how to negotiate, etc. are all things you can gain sitting and listening to a VP at a bank.

I would disagree with someone if they said "you can get that experience anywhere." If you take a corporate route like I did, most CEO/CFO won't even bother to learn your name until you've proved yourself useful to them in some way. As much as it may not seem so, VP/MD's at banks rely on the Analysts a lot. That's why they include you in meetings.

The last thing I'll say is that many firms will respect someone who has banking experience. Everyone knows it's a tough job and lifestyle, and I think people have a level of respect for people who go through Analyst programs, etc. It's also a reason why many companies require IB or Management Consulting experience for FP&A, Corp Dev, and Investor Relations roles.

I wouldn't recommend banking as a career per se, but I certainly think it's the best job (or one of the best jobs) one can take right out of college. You'll be gaining a lot more skills than your friends who took sales gigs making $40K a year but were told "you can easily make your salary in commissions bro. We're a dynamic company." Please. Banking was a hard part of my early 20's, but I'm glad I did it for a lot of reasons.

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Feb 16, 2019

This is a fantastic answer. Thanks for your fruitful reflection.

Feb 18, 2019

Or , you simply are a human and you can't bear cognitive dissonance. I mean its good that you live without regrets, and nice that you made something good out of a shitty situation. I personally never respect when I see a banker. All of my former classmates who went into banking they were just confused/lost/full FOMO. I respect those people who had their shit together and knew what they want from their lives and grabbed it.

My theory is that if there wasn't all this prestige push and cost of opportunity that an early career in banking has, we would have much more many people directed towards other careers that they (possibly) have a better social impact

Feb 15, 2019

If you take this rant at its highest level, anyone who's spent some years in IB will probably agree. More often than not, a deal you've worked on has probably been run by a terrible manager. It's simply a fault of the system - IB isn't conducive to producing good managers (constantly high stress, tight timelines, endless tasks, etc.), whereas other industries have different approaches to build over time. Obviously not true in all cases, I've had some great managers and some terrible managers but just my opinion on it.

The biggest "sham" I actually think happens and is overlooked isn't the pitchbooks, CIMs, etc. that are made but more so all the analyses that go into building a valuation when you're on the sell-side. Being on the buy-side now and working with other partners, it's pretty clear that buyers inherently know what they want to pay for the business - no one actually cares what you tell them you think it's worth because they already have their own value in mind.

Feb 15, 2019
icantdothisanymore:

Literally every single MD I worked with has been a terrible manager. No time management skills. No respect to employees. Zero logical thinking.

They are compensated on winning and executing deals. There is no leadership training in IB.
If you are looking for good leaders in business, I think you will be sorely disappointed with most any job or company you choose.

I have been in IB, moved to Corp Dev side, and now back to IB. Personally I missed the pace and violence of action from the folks I worked with. I wish you the best of luck.

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Feb 16, 2019

If some of your subservient, pompous, terrified, childish, weird ego attitude havin', soft mutha effers would hire me, somebody with some independent thinking, instead of a regurgitating clone you would see better results. Just a thought. Any of you nerds know anyone who would actually step out and take a risk (with their own resources).

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Feb 16, 2019

If some of your subservient, pompous, terrified, childish, weird ego attitude havin', soft mutha effers would hire me, somebody with some independent thinking, instead of a regurgitating clone you would see better results. Just a thought. Let me know if any of you nerds know anyone who would actually step out and take a risk (with their own resources or reputation).

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Feb 16, 2019

You have no idea how bad I feel for the kids that put the stuff together that I read. Most of our deals are direct sourced through our network and we rarely take banked deals seriously (why get in a competitive process when you don't have to). That being said, when I get a CIM I cringe at the shear volume of garbage I'm never going to read.

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Feb 16, 2019

Exactly.

Feb 19, 2019

Although I will say, there is a very clear skillset advantage for kids coming out of banking. If nothing else they're not whiny bitches and can crush if they made it with a ~4 rating both years of their analyst stint.

Feb 16, 2019

You forgot the number one thing: about half of all deals destroy value / it's a coin flip

(I personally intend to stay in finance anyway)

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Feb 17, 2019

EGO is Main Point.

Feb 18, 2019

agreed and left recently as a result

Feb 18, 2019

What's your plan post banking?

Feb 18, 2019

The same problem appears all over the financial industry. My MD is actually the only manager I've work for that don't care about the pitchbook at all (even though I have to prep them to keep appearance with his boss). He always starts meeting with the normal introduction and useless bullcrap to see if what kind of people he's dealing with then just throw away the presentation and have a candid conversation with the potential client. He studied the target so well that he never has to look at anything to provide information. Needless to say that he makes more money just discussing business in coffee shops than the conference room.

Cash and cash equivalents: $138,311
Financial instruments and other inventory positions owned: $448,166

Feb 19, 2019
icantdothisanymore:

The Chaos

It's beyond me why IB is so poorly managed. Literally every single MD I worked with has been a terrible manager. No time management skills. No respect to employees. Zero logical thinking. I know everyone is busy.

Is this really "beyond you"? It's pretty obvious. Most, if not all, MDs are former VPs, who were former Associate, who were former Analysts. No one has time management skills because every single person in a position of authority on a deal has the experience of working all the time. They never had to learn time management skills, they just had to learn to be in the office all the time, with the understanding that at every level you move up, you get to leave a little earlier and dump the remaining shit down a level.

Being an investment banker doesn't take any hard skill. It takes a maniacal obsession with always being present for your clients and base-level people skills. You can't be a moron, of course, but there is really almost no room for "genius" at an investment bank, just hard, monotonous, meaningless work. Every team is equally capable of executing every deal. As someone else said, it's just that clients like the prestige of associating with the "best", so everyone tries to show themselves in that light. Hence, league tables.

It's why the people who want a challenge don't stay in IB. They want more risk/reward. They want something intellectually stimulating. Most of the old guys at IBs are people with very few original ideas. The innovative and creative ones either get promoted to positions of real global corporate responsibility, or leave to do something else.

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Feb 22, 2019

I used to work in IB and 100% agree with the poor management skills of MD's. A ton of MD's are absolutely incompetent at management, unclear instructions, setting unrealistic deadlines, and have huge outsized egos. They think they are doing God's work or something, but in reality they are nothing more than a glorified real-estate agent.

What I personally hated the most about this job was the inability to learn anything useful besides making stupid powerpoints and writing CIMS, and making excel models that anyone with high school education and little bit of training could do.

The herd-like mindset of many of my colleagues was incredible, everyone and I mean just about everyone wanted to do the same thing, which was to get into an M7 MBA and move into private equity. The lack of creativity and outside the box thinking made them really dull people to work with.

Thank god I no longer work in this industry....

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Feb 22, 2019

lol.

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Mar 8, 2019

I really enjoyed reading through the debate/discussion on this thread. Well, got me somewhat reflective on my own career choices and thinking about the "what ifs".

I'm personally quite regretting not pursuing a PHD in research, misguided by the then "prestige" of banking and delve right into it after degree. I think with the talents that we have, we could have done so much more than being a middleman/liquidity provider/sales/trader etc.

What I'm trying to say is don't get too hang up about the current form of banking, that is definitely got be evolved x years down the road. The thing is, what role are you going to be in that?

And really really don't stop at IB/banking etc, build something, be an entrepreneur, take risks.

Mar 14, 2019

It's all because of how much bankers are paid to execute on these deals. 1-3% of TEV is significant. They really have to show "value add" or else that fat, multi-million dollar fee isn't justified.

It's mostly a show.

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Mar 20, 2019
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