Hi fellas,
I've read that management consulting is even harder to break into than Investment banking.
Is this true and if so, why would anyone choose consulting over banking?
Less pay, more travel etc. It just doesn't make any sense.
To make a fair comparison:
BB IB vs. MBB MC
MM IB vs. Olyver Wymann
etc.
Any help on this would be appreciated.
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Different goals different lifestyles different work material and different career path. Both incredibly flexible.
Just to list a frw
Ok, it actually makes sense now that you mention the fact that there are just three top tier consulting firms while there are at least twice as many BB IB's.
I don't necessarily agree with your second point though, consultants may have to work less hours but they kind of compensate that with the amount of hours they're travelling and total comp. is significantly lower in consultanting than it is in banking.
I guess money isn't everything.
Just to give you perspective: 1. Consultants work 60 ish hours vs 80 in banking. They also work Mon-Thur a lot and Friday a bit, but have weekends completely off. Their lifestyle is much better because of the free weekends. 2. All in comp at entry level is not that different. My friends at MBB and Deloitte as well all reach 100k all in. BB analyst makes 150k all in (including signing and relocation and also top bucket bonus). Sure, it's 50% difference but nominally, your lifestyle will be the same (in terms of spending habits). And that extra 50k is actually more like 20k after tax, especially considering that bigger portion of the 150k is bonus as versus to 100k.
I am going into BB IBD so not biased towards MBB at all. Just trying to give objective numbers and facts. In my opinion, both compensate equitably to the amount of work, and lifestyle in banking isn't really that bad if you are good at time management. My friends and I just have different goals/past experiences/interests/personality/value. You should choose your career based on those characteristics first and then the comp will follow. You can adjust/sacrifice your lifestyle to do something you enjoy.
Are you sure about those numbers, they seem a little on the low side?
Can't argue that the hours consultants make are way better devided but regularly being away from home on monday till friday isn't exactly ideal and I doubt if having the weekends off can make up for that.
100 and 150k a year is a big difference if you ask me and correct me if I'm wrong but those differences only get bigger once you move up the latter, won't they?
Taxes depend on where you live and your knowledge of tax law but I get your point.
Thanks for sharing your toughts on this, it's really helpful to read what others think, especially folks like yourself who shed some light on why someone whould choose consulting over banking eventhough your in banking yourself.
It makes some kind of sense to me now, I think I'm better suited for investment banking than consulting.
a
Which numbers? The hours? 60 for consulting and 80 for banking is about average (excluding commute time). Think about it this way: a) 60 hours for consultants are spread across mostly over the four days from Mon-Thur. 60/4 = 15 hours. That's about working 8am till 11pm. b) 80 hours for bankers are spread across mostly over the five days and sporadically over the weekends, so let's say across five days from Mon-Fri and then take out 10 hours for Sat-Sun. That's (80-10)/5 = 14 hours. That's about working from 9am~9:30am til 11~11:30pm plus five hours each Sat/Sun (my personal experience was more on weekdays and less on weekends, so more like 9am till 1am). 60 hours for consultants and 80 hours for bankers are really not low numbers. You can only imagine what a 100 hour week looks like...which happens, but not as frequently as people think it does.
Your opinion on being away from home is what drives people away from consulting. Once again, lifestyle depends on perspective. My friends think of traveling as a way to see/experience random things (good and bad things...to be fair, a lot of my consulting friends suffer from FOMO). Also, while they are on the road, they get to stay in upscale hotels and wine & dine. For a banker, being home Mon-Fri doesn't really matter. By the time you get out of the office, you most likely just wanna go home and sleep. Weekends are the fun parts. Because consultants have weekends free for sure, they can plan shit/travel the world or country/volunteer/do extracurriculars that looks good on resume for MBA etc. Because bankers can be called in at any time, they mostly don't commit to any long-term things like volunteering or extracurricular projects. They just go out to blow off steam.
You're correct about the pay difference. High finance salary will increase at a faster rate compared to consulting salaries. But once again, if you are in either profession, you don't have to worry about daily spending. I saw evidence from both consulting and banking. I've seen a consultant buy a new pair of expensive dress shoes for petty reasons (i.e. "I got stressed at client site so I just ordered a pair to blow it off") and a banker spend lavishly at clubs (I guess the "models and bottles" part). In all honesty, big money comes in only after reaching partner/MD or you do your own shit.
Glad I can help. Another disclaimer is I interviewed at MBB as well (I, too, suffer from FOMO from time to time just like my friends). You really can't go wrong choosing b/w MBB and IB But personally, I like the bit more aggressive nature of IB, but man...consultants really know how to sell themselves.
There are just significantly fewer spots in consulting as compared with banking. Also, it's much easier to break into banking from a non-target than it is consulting. MBB may hire a few non-targets every year, but most of the boutique consulting shops hire exclusively from their few relationship schools.
Banking and consulting will both comp you well enough to be in the top 1% for your age group and both give you a platform for rapid career advancement either in those fields or within industry. No point in arguing, it's a matter of personal preference beyond that.
What's the reason for that, elitism?
The most obvious one about 3 MBB and more than double BB firms has already been said, but one other thing is that in my experience--IBD is a self selecting group of people, where as MBB everyone and their mom applies. I went to a target school, and literally EVERYONE applied to MBB because they didn't like finance/banking and it appealed more to the fact they had no idea what they wanted to do with their lives. The kids that played ultimate frisbee and sang kumbaya were even applying and getting offers for MBB, while if you looked at the kids that went into IBD..it was pretty obvious who WOULD go for finance. Consulting is also a way more friendly environment, so that attracts more people too
Which is easier to break into Consulting or IB? (Originally Posted: 08/03/2011)
Which is easier to break into Management Consulting or IB?
Can you elaborate on this please?
I'm Dutch so the situation is obviously not the same as it is in the U.S. but I'm curious to know what kind of people would and wouldn't go into banking judging from your experience and what you exactly mean with a friendlier environment.
IB.
IB
I think MC is tougher to break into at the elite end of the spectrum. There are some pretty shit consulting firms that aren't very difficult to break into though.
i vote MC.
out of college, IB out of B school, MC
Depends. Consulting is a wide field.
Only about 10 management consulting firms have a global footprint:
Tier 1, > 5000 employees: McK BCG Bain
Large Tier 2, > 2000 employees: Booz Roland Berger Oliver Wyman ATK
Small Tier 2, IB as of July 2011, Deutsche Bank has 15.359 IBankers.
Now, if you add Inhouse Consulting, Big4, Accenture plus all the little no-name shops... different story.
Very Informative!!
but those numbers do not reflect the no. of FO/IBD jobs that we crave for. the 10s of thousands include MO/BO...
true, but but same could be said about i.e. the 5000 Bain employees, no? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bain_%26_Company
any estimates on the ratio FO/BO?
Depends on the consulting firm and your undergrad/mba school. I went to a non-target and I knew several kids who landed BB IBD jobs, including top tier firms like GS/MS etc. I don't know a single person who broke into MBB consulting. If you don't have access to OCR, I don't think top tier consulting is even a possibility (feel free to correct me if you know of anyone who has done this). I cannot comment about target schools with OCR, but if you are coming from a non-target, it is definitely easier to break into IB.
I'm 100% sure that you don even compare the ratio. in consulting the ratio of FO:BO is much higher
that said, i was not saying that MC is easier to break into. I just thought it's unfair to just look at the numbers.
what might be easier for someone might be harder for others. personality match, case interviews, blabla.
I think the thing with consulting is the gap between MBB and everyone else is so much larger than the gap between GS/MS/JPM and everyone else, or even between BB and MM/Boutique banks. That plus the fact that MBB only takes people with very high GPAs at elite schools makes it objectively harder to get into. If you are a 4.0 student at H/P/W then it probably comes down to personal ability etc
I'd say this is highly debatable. I have a German background, so I'll just use Roland Berger to illustrate my point.
Germany is EU's biggest economy and the world's second biggest consulting market. Berger is #2 here behind McKinsey, about 550 USD million revenue, same as BCG - even though BCG has 1550 consultants in Germany and Rolander Berger only 800. (http://www.luenendonk.de/management_beratung.php)
RB is doing huge projects in Europe, such as setting up the new European Rating Agency ( http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/18/us-ratings-idUSTRE76H29R20110…)
They are extremely successful in emerging markets such as China, Eastern Europe.
So, if like me you are a European with an interest in Emerging Markets, in many aspects Roland Berger is superior i.e. to Bain! Bain might have a stronger market presence in the US or perhaps better access to US MBA programs (?). Fair enough, but they are much weaker than Berger on other markets - plus in Germany PhDs are much preferred over MBAs in consulting, so both could very well be worthless to me. Bain is the #10-11 firm in Germany, basically brand value is non-existant, I've met business students who thought of them as a boutique firm (as is the case vice versa with Berger and US students).
BTW, here's the reason why RB has such a weak US business: Until 2000 Deutsche Bank was a major stakeholder (75,1%) and the US Federal Reserve Bank did not allow subsidiaries of commercial banks to practise consulting - this effectively kept RB from entering the US market.
More generally, I think the consulting business is made up of oligopolies, and if you are not in the 'elite' you are screwed. Maybe in Germany RB and McK run shit, but thats still the same as saying RB + McK >>>>>>>>> anything else. Thats what I was trying to say. In banking, there are probably 8 BBs, half a dozen decent MM shops, and another half dozen elite boutiques that run in the big leagues. Then there are tons of regional boutiques and shops that still get decent deals.
I believe the answer to this question depends a lot on how you define consulting and how you define banking. If we are talking about STRATEGY than we are only talking about a handful of firms and we are notably not talking about many OPERATIONS firms such as ATK, Deloitte, PRTM etc. Given the sheer number of spots available if we are talking about strategy I think it is obvious that consulting is harder to get into
If we are talking about MANAGEMENT Consulting, which typically includes operations, the argument becomes a bit less one sides however again given the sheer number of spots I think banking is easier.
If we are talking about Consulting in general, which will include IT I think banking is easier. IT firms hire like IBM, Accenture, Deloitte, PWC, KPMG, Capgemini etc. recruit from A LOT of schools and probably cast a wider net than banks. Thus based on the number of spots available I would say banking is harder
This is just looking at it from one dimension, but I do believe the number of spots is fairly telling.
If you mean what is it harder to break into, BB IBD or MBB MC, it's definitely harder to break into MC.
I mean think about it - JPM, MS, GS, Citi, BAML, BarCap, CS, UBS + Deutsche (hope I didn't forget anyone) vs. Bain, Mck, BCG.
Each of those BB's will take ~150 analysts world wide in any given year (including capital markets,) and I assume each consulting firm takes a similar # (just from my recruiting experience, correct me if I'm wrong.)
So that's 1350 analysts going to BBs every year, compared to 450 going to MBBs. As an aside, 1350 analysts? Wow, a BB analyst job is rare. I feel elite.
Where did you get your numbers from?? So, Bulge Bracket analyst jobs total just ~1300 jobs in the entire world each year? I expected way more than that, considering we would factor in Bulge Bracket analyst positions in NYC, Chicago, Hong Kong, London, Singapore, and some other less finance-intensive, yet IBD-existent cities. (Berlin, Tokyo, etc)
hmmmm.... I kind of agree, only that I would say there are about as many elite consulting firms as there are BB!
McK BCG Bain Booz Roland Berger Oliver Wyman AT Kearney
so maybe McK is the Goldman Sachs of consulting - but at the end of the day all consultants of the firms mentioned above went to the same schools and now compete for the same projects! Depending your preferred region (DE/AT/CH? Berger), culture (low key? Booz) or industry (FS? Wyman) there are always options worth considering outside of MBB.
Coming back to your initial statement: I guess I refuse to believe that Booz or AT Kearney are less desirable for somebody who wants to break into MC than are UBS or BoA for somebody who wants to break into IB!
And coming back to my initial example: I believe that Bain is not far superior than Berger to most Germans/Europeans. As a matter if fact I don't believe its a little bit superior or even the same - I believe Bain actually is inferior for many given the situation they'd get an offer from both firms.
I agree that consulting is an oligopoly with elite firms. I absolutely acknowledge that overall MBB are the most prestigious firms worldwide. I disagree about MBB being on a whole nother level than everybody else - perhaps correct to some extent for the US, but an oversimplification for many international markets.
Easier to break into: IB vs. consulting? (Originally Posted: 04/21/2012)
Sorry if this has been posted a million times before. Will delete if so.
My story: got interested in finance late in the game, am a non-finance major at 2nd tier, have access to OCR, non-trad student. Not going for top tier firms. Just learning the ropes. Cheers guys.
Interested.
?
Oh that's what the period means. Evolving in my primate education.
Yes, this has been discussed ad nauseam on this forum.
First of all, you are comparing apples to oranges. This never work wells and usually ends up in a shit show.
I'll give you my personal experience, however:
The profiles of MBB consultants are probably similar to those at top BBs/elite boutiques, from what I've seen. That being said, the interview processes between the two are completely different (case study vs. technical/fit). Also, MBB and other elite consulting firms i.e. OW, Parthenon, Monitor, Booz, LEK, etc. are more focused on pedigree/grades/test scores than banks. This is not to say that banks do not set a high premium on the aforementioned stats.
Banks, on the other hand, place a higher emphasis on work experience. This is why not having a relevant summer internship can make FT recruiting for banking extremely difficult.
SA recruiting for banking, based on numbers, is probably easier than top-tier consulting. MBB summer internships are notorious for being very difficult to obtain, since there are not many spots to go around (SA to FT conversion rate is also pretty high). However, for FT recruiting, MBB expands their numbers, while banks contract, as they just hire many of their summers.
I don't think you should get into this debate, as there are too many factors involved. Also, this is only based on my experiences, having recently recruited for both.
.
Thanks so much for your thoughts, that helps a lot.
Banking is much easier to break into from a nontarget.
Cheers, John and Matthias. Do you not think it'll dilute my efforts to go gungho for both? I currently have no knowledge of modeling OR case interviews, and am just starting to teach myself.
Also, although I'm at a 2nd tier, I have better than average alumni connections across the board, if that swings the scales any.
Isn't IB easier to access compared to consulting? (Originally Posted: 11/09/2010)
I'm a Msc in management student at a good european university. I've always thought i'd try to pursue a career in consulting, and obviously I'm talking about Fab3. Recently though i have started considering more more the idea of trying to land an IB job; what struck me when I started learning stuff on the subject, is the sheer quantity of prestigious places to work. I mean, in consulting you just have those three, and the other consultancies don't offer the same exit opps.
But in IB you have GS, MS, JPM, CS, DB, BarCap, UBS, Citi... and then at leat another 4 or 5 boutiques. I'm sure getting a job in one of these is difficult, but don't you think that just the quantity of BB and prestigious boutiques means more odds of getting a prestigious job? Is it maybe that you have more people trying to get into IB than those trying to get into Consulting?
Sorry if it's a noob question.
There are considerably more people trying to get into banking, but the odds of getting into MBB are still lower (although not by much?), and though MBB are the best, there are other very prestigious consulting groups as well (OW, Monitor etc.) which would be similar in status to the top IB boutiques you are talking about [someone correct me if I'm wrong here].
My understanding is that there's a significant drop from MBB to OW/Monitor/etc. Obviously you can make a great career out of non-MBB and have great exit opportunities, but prestige is a huge factor in consulting and MBB are far and away the best.
So if you look at just MBB vs tier1 banking, it will probably be harder to break in to consulting. But that's just my pure speculation.
Exaclty what i meant.
I'm not quite sure about that. MBB classes are huge and I was able tos ecure an offer. mckinsey ops for example is quite easy. I would say it depends, one is not necessarily harder than the other.
However, anything after MBB is considerably easier.
What is "ops"?
Do some research. Go on Mckinsey's site. There are many different groups.
this guy is either a troll or a retard. i'm thinking both
for a b.a. position at mckinsey, ac at bain/bcg or whatever title, probably comparable to getting an offer at Evercore/GS/MS. however it's definitely easier to get a general bb job than one at the top 3
No, I think IB would be harder. For me it was, I had plenty of consulting opportunities; albeit my school was a heavy target for consulting and not at all for IB.
MBB is much harder to get into than BB. this is fact.
I forgot we were in Italy. Oh wait we're not.
Thanks for letting me know mckinsey operations doesn't exist when I actually met with them in person.
http://www.mckinsey.com/clientservice/operations/
This board has really gone to shit with the level of misinformation on here.
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