Is operations underrated as a career?
Was reading @WallStreetOasis.com" 's description of the ib prep pack and he had no problem slamming the back office and calling it akin to being a mortgage broker (what a jackass). I think ops is highly underrated at the upper levels and the fact that I can leave at 3 whenever I want while also making over 400k isn't a bad trade off to whatever the hell you kids do nowadays.
Is 400k the ceiling for back office jobs? And you must be at least 40 something going on 50 to touch that kind of check, right?
First year analyst is making 50 something thousand at Morgan Stanley according to Glassdoor. That's a steep hill to climb.
Basically yes and yes. Don't give me the bs "I could be a IB MD by the time I'm 34!!!!"
For the most part, anyone with ib experience at the BB/EB firms will cap off around 250-400k themselves since very few stay to the vp and md level and PE isn't paying everyone 1.5 million despite the forum's belief. It is beyond ridiculous for jackasses who have no business talking to people with 10-20+ years experience to give the whole "OPS IS BAD!!! AVOID!!!!"
Underrated by who?
A lot of people out there are enthusiastic and interested in careers like IT management. Those jobs are great for them, not for most of us.
There are a lot of great middle office jobs that are criminally underrated on here. BB firms employ global risk managers, lawyers, economists, and similar professions who's job it is to handle all of the non-finance challenges facing the firm. Some of those are great career tracks that can lead you into the bank's C-suite.
Patrick talking about IB below.
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/guide/investment-banking-interview-prep…
"Most never get in.
Instead they end up left out in the cold, wandering the finance wilderness... Working in a back office... Selling home loans at a community bank... Crunching numbers as an accountant...
And yes, living with their parents.
I’ve seen it more times than I can count.
And it’s all because they’re unprepared."
What a crock of shit. You can read every damn guide in the world, pay thousands for interview prep, send 2000 cold emails, and still not get an ib offer for trivial factors.
First of all, Ops is not as sweet as many think - Depending on the job you won't really work short hours and do your 9-5 reading magazines. It won't be IBD but still a lot of (a lot of times) boring stuff to do, if you're supporting a global desk, be aware you'll be supporting their requests (APAC, EMEA, LATAM) and if you're in sme kind of managerial level you'll be expected to cover the hours as well.
Salary is not that great. I agree that most people here think they'll be making multiple millions in IBD by 30 when they will not. At least in Ops you know you won't dream with this. But as OP mentioned, middle/back office employs a lot of qualified, hard working ppl who will still, in average, get a pretty decent comp for the work performed.
My two cents? If you're not IBD/ST material, middle/back office is not such a bad option (obviously not the target of this forum). In finance, positions still pay more than other sectors, and offer a pretty decent work/life balance.
Ops is awesome if you don't have a dickhead personality like 90% of the site.
I won't say "awesome" since to be fair you don't have a lot of exit opps and after time it will get really boring. Also there's always the chance of outsourcing to Manila or somewhere. But yeah it's not bad if you can play it right, and it's not a dickhead.
Also, they work like hell. Not an " easy job" as many think.
Damn, what are you so salty for? Did you try going FO and not get it, and then had to settle for ops and are now compensating by considering that anyone who wouldn't want to do back office work a dickhead?
That attitude is why you're sitting in the back-office settling my trades.
So what's this about making 400k as an Ops MD?
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/ask-a-fake-ops-md-anything
Fwiw, I'm not some FO master of the universe type, but holy shit, I would off myself if I worked as a business analyst or in a similar Ops role. There are some jobs that simply suck no matter how hard you spin them.
I use this account as a contrarian to the dumb ass circle jerk that is ib. I'm currently an analyst at a shit ib group in a mid-low tier BB. Heading to a HF next month so can't wait to get the fuck out of here.
Remember when you made this? I wonder what happened to make you like BO roles so damn much in such a short amount of time considering you're allegedly working in an "ib group in a mid-low tier BB"?
400K for back office? Not sure if that's true. I know MDs at BMO and BlackRock who are averaging around $200k+.
Says a guy who posted recently he wasn't in Ops anymore and transitioned to FO and that he wasnt an MD (and obviously not making 400k) but did an AMA for troll purposes. Now you are back in Ops huh?
Must be multiple personality disorder
For the record, I 100% agree that the job is underrated, but I still think it's typically a fall back option for students that couldn't break into front office IB.
There is nothing wrong with that, but when you compare it to front office IB, there really is a step down on many levels (pay, exit ops, getting into a good b school yrs down the road, overall career trajectory, skill/knowledge development, etc). Not sure how that is debatable.
Since being actually employed is still better than a lot of college grads can say these days, I think it's a HUGE mistake for students to ignore Ops, entry level financial advisors, mortgage brokers, etc type of jobs as a good option. These positions can still provide a foundation for great careers, but they are still inferior on many levels when compared to other front office IB or buyside positions in PE/HF, for example.
Step down from IB? Sure, so are 95+ percent of entry-level jobs on the criteria of this site. I'd also like to mention that a high percentage of BO employees are from schools that are targets for that satellite office (Think BYU/GS SLC) and many of them still have zero knowledge of the difference of BO or FO AM/IB/etc. It also is highly underrestimated how people think it is "easy" to break in a NYC BB IBD role from a no-name boutique. Most BBs with lateral positions have their pick of people from solid EB and BB bankers, why would they even bother with someone from a bank that hasn't even cracked one 25 million dollar deal?
I think you would also be pleasantly surprised by the amount of people who get into top MBA programs from BO or MO roles.
I know any slamming on IB is going to be met with a mob of aspiring bankers who act like ib is akin to being a navy seal. It's quite clear you think highly of it since it's your main cash cow compared to ER or S&T. There is no doubt in my mind that there are a slew of people who are interested in the IB/PE/HBS path because they view it as a path to the elite. It wouldn't be surprising if money-hungry bankers are the ones who do poorly because at the end of the day you have to find something enjoyable in a job that requires 80-100 hours.
"Most never get in.
Instead they end up left out in the cold, wandering the finance wilderness... Working in a back office... Selling home loans at a community bank... Crunching numbers as an accountant...
And yes, living with their parents.
I’ve seen it more times than I can count.
And it’s all because they’re unprepared."
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/guide/investment-banking-interview-prep…
Plenty of prepared people with strong networking skills, grades, school pedigrees, and interview skills don't get IB jobs. Everyone here knows there will always be someone who gets dinged in an interview "just because" and can just be the bad luck of the draw.
Why were you reading the description for an ib prep pack?
I actually agree with you that Ops is underrated on this site, but a fresh college graduate would likely be making a terrible career decision by joining an Ops group right out of school, if they had other options that would be more educational. To suggest otherwise is spreading misinformation
The advantage of Ops is lifestyle. So even if someone does want a 'lifestyle job' in the long term, they'd be much better off starting off in something like trading or research or even risk management, learning a lot and acquiring a bunch of useful skills, and then some years down the road transitioning to a lifestyle job
Besides the comparatively low salary I think Ops has a different mentality than FO as well. At least I see this in my shop - sort of a don't rock the boat attitude. They're less hungry and are happy with their 9 to 5 so they are kind of complacent and, dare I say, boring. Shying away from new deals, keeping their head down, and then going home. I don't know how an ambitious minded person could survive. But maybe that's just my company.
Why Do People Stay in Operations? (Originally Posted: 03/13/2007)
People move up to Senior VP and MD in Ops...... question is why? Is there anything good about a career in Ops, other than the fact that you get to work with extremely unintelligent people so it is easy to stand out daily?
Im sure you have plenty of smart people working in OPs. The motivated ones do well.
And you do start to rake in a decent chunk of change as you become more senior. VPs pull 200 grand, MDs pull a lot more.
I am going to be a banker, and I never worked in OPs. But I've interacted with Lehman middle office guys..they are incredibly smart and motivated.
If you make pretty good money, working less hours, why wont you? not everyone wants to or can be a banker.
I think its important to respect all divisions, everyones work is important.
Some people value family and friends over money.
How they like the work however is beyong me, its even dumber than ibanking work.
?
The people I know who started in op's got the same starting salary as front office positions.
They work 9 - 5 / 9 - 6 in most cases. Bonus is shit all.
Purely lifestyle choice I'd imagine. Stronger salary then other industries but simple hours.
And you get stuck in ops when you start there. What front office guy is going to hire an ops guy?
you sound like such a tool. Friend of mine who's in ops (smokin hot too) was recruited within the firm to work on the desk in sales. She passed on the offer because of the environment/noise with all the backstabbing going on up there. She simply didn't want to be in that kind of environment. She preferred the chill 9-5 office lifestyle. I know of about 3 others who made the jump from ops and product control to trading assistants and/or sales assistants.
you should respect the people in operations, these people do an extremely important as well... why do some people love pepsi coke, why do others fancy coca coke? it's a matter of preference..
Garbagemen do important work, too.
yeah ok, ops is awful to be honest man. It's not pepsi vs. coke, it's pepsi vs crap.
it's because she's hot. And girls are different for sure.
I don't know of one who made the jump. I mean, what Bank would take that risk post nick leeson?
as I said in previous post, I knew 3 others who made the jump. You seem to have the logic where people in ops = stupid people which is a bad generalization. There's actually people in the BO and MO that are pretty damn smart...some ex-traders who end up in product control for various reasons, and there a few in the MO within my bank who have their CFA. And to answer your question, the reason why traders recruit from product control is because they feel it's less risky. Why? They know the system, process, have dealt with them day in and day out and personally know them and what they are capable of.
Ra-tool, not in ops. I have gotten to know a few of the ops and product control guys so I know first hand, as opposed to you who has his head up his ass that doesn't know shit, and squabbles second or third hand information that he has heard from friends on campus. You're generalizations and misconceptions make you look really ignorant.
poor fellow
Where does a reasoning behind generalizations come from if they are not true?
For example....
These are all common generalizations, but aren't they pretty true for the most part?
well said gsmsml. Couldn't have said it better myself.
If your good at what you do then really it simply does not matter.
The reason people have to put other people down is because they need to feel good about their empty lifes.
The key to being the best banker is to speak to everyone, from back to middle to front, that way you understand, everyones views and needs and truly go places.
and for ops people being dumb?! thats silly, if we went along with that assumption, then they would still be the dumbest of the most cleaverest people anyway!! wouldnt they!!!
in my firm any lazy s**t on any desk, dept etc gets shown the door.
Shut the fuck up. You obviously do not work in the industry and when you say shit like that you could really mislead people. Operations is a fucking DEAD END job.
What the FUCK does that have to do with this thread? Being a "good banker" has nothing to do with whether or not someone should stay in ops. Or are you saying operations guys are "bankers"?
No. Why the fuck would they be the dumbest of the 'most cleaverest' people? Operations people are a fucking joke. It's not as if the next best job to being a derivatives trader or M&A analyst is being in operations at the same firm. To the contrary, there are about a million other biz/finance jobs that would go before operations if you ranked them all in terms of desirability.
I have a hard time believing you have a job period, much less a front-office job, given the way you write. And don't give me some excuse about typos; your spelling and grammar are shit.
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