John Paulson Owes $1 BILLION To The IRS
I know you guys saw this go up on the journal.
A decade ago, the hedge fund manager bet against the subprime mortgages ahead of the crash and was one of the whale sized winners. He made $15BN for his funds, and took home his own bonus of $4BN. Now, he owes about $1.5BN to the IRS.
By April 17, the hedge fund manager** must make federal and state tax payments of about $1 billion, on top of roughly $500 million in taxes he paid late last year**, said people close to his firm. That sum is so big it dwarfs the maximum amount the Internal Revenue Service will allow any single taxpayer to pay with a single check. (That's $99,999,999, in case you're wondering)
[Photo: paulsonco.com]
Dude was managing just shy of $40B at one point, now is at half that.Would you try to hold on to that as long as possible, like he clearly tried to do - or would you just get it over with and pay the damn bill? It's not like he doesn't have enough.. apparently he's still got $9B to his name, and that's just what is public.
A check? What is this, 1972? Ever heard of a wire transfer?
Fight it and ultimately pay a fraction. Any money sent to the government simply finances waste, graft and killing people thousands of miles away.
Totally agree. While the private sector is typically efficient at whatever it pursues, the most efficient thing government does is spend our money on meaningless dogshit
Paulson Considering Tax Exile (Originally Posted: 03/17/2013)
Hardly a day goes by here in France anymore without some mention in the press about all the tax exiles fleeing to Belgium. Actor Gerard Depardieu and LVMH CEO Bernard Arnault are just two of the famous high-earners to turn their back on France in the wake of Hollande's tax increases on the wealthy. But it might surprise you to learn that it's been quietly happening in America, too.
The latest big hitter said to be mulling a run for the border is none other than hedge fund titan John Paulson. He's reportedly looking into moving to Puerto Rico where there is no local or federal taxes on capital gains for new residents. It would certainly be a surprising move by the lifelong New Yorker and major cheerleader for the Big Apple. If he does make the move though, it won't be hard for him to put together a poker game down island.
It's actually becoming something of a trend in finance. I read a couple months ago about hundreds of bankers who've relocated to Florida from New York to avoid taxes. Puerto Rico really isn't much further, when you think about it.In our hyper-connected global economy, it really doesn't make sense for top earners to live in a high-tax jurisdiction anymore. Think about it: there's really nothing John Paulson does that he couldn't do from anywhere on Planet Earth today. We're obviously not there yet, but I have a hard time believing that New York will still be the center of the universe twenty years from now if the city fails to get taxes under control.
I'm watching it firsthand right here. Don't believe anyone who tells you that France isn't dying on the vine. This country is just Greece with better food. And it's all because of taxation and idiotic labor laws. The French will eventually entitle themselves right out of existence.
It'll be interesting to see the American response to this trend. Eduardo Saverin was roughed up a bit in the media for moving to Singapore in what many saw (incorrectly) as a bid to avoid taxes on his Facebook fortune. But right now tech guys get a pass on that kind of stuff in the eyes of the public.
Bankers are another story altogether. I could see Paulson getting savaged in the New York press if he bailed out to the white sandy beaches and distant reaches of the Caribbean.
What do you guys think? Should he blow out of New York and save himself what will likely amount to billions of dollars (the tax exemption is good through 2035)? What would you do?
There's certainly no question in my mind.
Seems pretty obvious to me too. The only thing I would look into really hard are quality of education, culture, etc in the Caribbean, assuming this guy has kids. Although I am completely ignorant on the schooling over in Puerto Rico, that would definitely be a concern - or maybe this is extremely short-sighted ...
Send your kids to Le Rosey for most of their schooling years and then have them move to Andover/Deerfield/Phillips Exeter when they are older. Might as well use the tax savings to start your kids into the Preftige culture early.
Warm weather, no taxes. Hell I'd do it in a heartbeat if I were him.
you can fly out the best tutors first class for his entire childhood for the price of the tax savings in one month.
Bingo.
Isn't that the whole point of, well, life? Make some money, head down south and sit on a beach, drink in hand?
Also, it mentions "capital gains". When's the last type Paulson saw any of those?
Amen, brother.
Ouch.
Do you really think he is going to move there after spending the last 32 yrs living in NYC? Do you really think a man who has over $12.5 billion will move his family just to save some taxes? What is the marginal benefit for him? He can already buy whatever he wants. That would be just greed...
From Paulson's perspective I guess this makes sense. If he really doesn't want to pay taxes, this is how you get out of it. From the US's perspective, it obviously sucks. It may or may not be a function of the political debate, but I see people jettisoning the system that afforded them the opportunity to make their fortune in the first place. This is a pretty bad dynamic overall.
Letting my own mind wander further into this topic:
From an ethics/theoretical standpoint,
The US needs to (duh) lower the tax+debt rate and make an effort to get more bang out of its buck. That's pretty much it. On the individual side of things, I see Paulson as just another one of the generation of "pulling the ladder up" who really doesn't care about the country or the next generation (I got mine, now fuck you). Not saying he has to at all, but a whole lot of leeway is granted to those with more power/wealth and it's kind of hard to justify that when they turn a cold shoulder on the very system that enabled them to become this successful in the first place. Had Paulson been born in a slum in West Congo, it's doubtful that his supposed 'superior darwin blah blah blah' would have amounted to more than a hill of beans...just pointing out the obvious here.
On a side note, financiers should keep in mind the Knights Templar, who were destroyed because the state was jealous of their power and wealth....the golden rule may be "he who has the gold, rules" but in reality it's those with better weapons that control things, at least in the short/medium term. I'm pretty sure that western govt's have cornered that market. I'd say that America is probably the last Western nation that's going to plunder the wealth of the republic but at the same time it gets hard to justify consolidated industries being protected from real competition when the net result is the degredation of the public platforms on which they depend. Banks and financiers can blame the government all they want, and they're not all wrong, but I entered this industry just as the federal government took over some of the most hallowed institutions of all time and it seems pretty obvious to me that Wall Street did that to itself. It seems some people never learn, but despite what anyone with a lot of money things, the gov't is clearly in charge as long as their decision making isn't too horrible for too long and a general collapse is avoided.
There will always be psychos in the government who just hate us, I get that, but giving an ear to them is only possible if public outrage is fueled. I personally lean towards Bill Gates' espousal of charitable endeavors once one becomes sucessful, he demonstrates the meaing of "to those whom much is given much is expected" aka being a responsible leader of society instead of thinking you can take it to the grave with you. No one on this site has the type of wealth or power where that mindset actually matters, but that's how I see it.
"When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion - when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing - when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors - when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you - when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice - you may know that your society is doomed."
"Where the hell is my Medicare check???"
LOL. Just breaking your balls, bro.
Bravo to every American who does whatever possible to reduce and minimize government theft. I love hearing about people leaving high tax jurisdictions as it is the unstoppable human reaction confronting the ignorant socialist idealism.
See also: Texafornia
Someone play the world's smallest violin for Paulson. If you literally have over a billion dollars in net worth and you're thinking of moving from NYC to Puerto Rico to lower your tax burden, you need to get a grip.
That is exactly the mindset that will doom this country. The government takes over 40% of what a man works for and then comes back for seconds and you think that he will just sit there. The government over taxes and over spends OTHER PEOPLE's MONEY and the hard workers of this country have had enough.
Totally irrelevant to the point here. What we should really be asking is not what Paulson's motivations are for considering the move, but why the federal government continues a mindless double-tax on dollars that are being directly invested in the economy.
There is a saying that most of you forgot: "Nothing is certain but death and taxes"
If he renounces his U.S. citizenship and expatriates his assets will be marked to market, and uncle Sam will send him a nice tax bill for his cap gains. After which he will still be taxed on U.S. source income at either 30% if it's FDAP(could be reduced by U.S-Puerto Rico tax treaties,doubtful) or the regular tax rates if it's effectively connected to U.S. trade or business.
Also, good luck avoiding SaLT taxes if you set foot in the state/city or if you do business there.
If he doesn't renounce his citizenship he is still subject to U.S. taxation since the U.S. does not use a territorial system.
What is he doing? Buying a condo/house to make his wife happy.
Obviously you didn't read the article.
EDIT: Just to be clear, I agree that it is extremely unlikely that Paulson would actually make this move.
Great point - just note that moving to Puerto Rico does not mean renouncing U.S. citizenship. Puerto Rico is a territory not unlike American Samoa or the Virgin Islands. Puerto Ricans are born as American citizens jus solis and moving to and from the island is just like moving to and from any other state.
Puerto Rico? There are tons of other places I'd rather move to avoid taxes. He'll save a few bucks and get shot.
Jesus, bro, it's not Haiti.
He gets to keep his US citizenship (i.e. no exit tax).
No capital gain taxes for 35 years (guaranteed).
4% business income tax.
It's not really irrelevant to the point. Who in their right mind would choose to live in PR over New York when money is literally no object and will never be for generations? Give me a break.
Also, Paulson gets virtually all of his income taxed at the capital gains rate because of the carried interest tax loophole.
I'm not making pro tax arguments here, I'm simply saying that if you're worth over $10 billion dollars, moving to Puerto Rico to avoid NYC taxes is ludicrous and out of touch with reality.
I get the point you're making, but you could list me among those who would choose PR over NYC. In fact, I'd take a job in PR for $50,000 a year before I'd take one in New York for $200,000. Pretty much the only thing keeping me out of the Caribbean is my kids' education.
It's only a loophole if you assume that he should rightfully be taxed at higher effective rates, which is dubious. We should have zero capital gains taxes and a flat ordinary tax rate on income with no deductions. In such a system, feel free to tax Paulson at ordinary rates; but there is zero justification for taxing anyone 39%+.
I agree. And it's equally ludicrous that our tax laws encourage such uneconomical behavior.
He should simply renounce his citizenship and wipe his ass with the tax bill. I wish we would gut our military power so more people could flee this bastardized nation and we'd be impotent to stop them. Sicking the level of robbery that this once great nation foists upon its citizens.
And for what? We can't even break even with our budget. We steal 30-40% of a mans labor only to run up trillion dollar deficits every year. Disgusting.
Decaf, bro. Decaf.
Well spoken TNA. This country is sick. If the average company ran its budget the way the government does it would be out of business in no time.
No way he is actually going to do it. Unless he can shift over, realise his "capital gains", and head straight back to NYC.
Ps. Where exactly does he think these capital gains are coming from? Does he even check his own funds performance? Perhaps he is too busy staring at the big shiny gold bars propping up his desk ( he must use it for something right? It certainly isn't for making $$$)
Agreed, I can't see him making this move, other than on principle or to make a point.
For the very wealthy there seems to two schools or thought.
1) it's a subscription for living in a civilised country and ensuring that everything ticks over to keep the cash coming in
2) it's my money and only little people pay taxes
Not being a billionaire I don't understand why people like Paulson would even care about their taxes. The marginal utility of the money they are earning is so low and functions solely as a score board in Greenwich surely? If one makes more money than you can spend a year with a NW in the billions it wouldn't bother me being taxed at 90%. If the roads are smooth, children have good schools, hospitals keeping the working class working and consumers are paid enough to keep on consuming (leaving the credit cards at home) then he stock market will go up and Paulson can get even richer.
There's an enormous difference between asking whether or not taxes "would bother" someone who is already extremely wealthy and questioning whether taxing the wealthy inordinately is the best system to promote economic growth.
Great post. I will never understand the people who fall into Category 2. It just seems like sociopathic behavior.
Question:
What if you lived in NYC and have a official residence/postal address in a state with no income taxes? I mean he could still live in NYC, but maintain his official residence in FL. Something like what corporations do.
Income is taxed by the state of origin. If a NY firm is paying your salary for a job that you're performing in NY, you'll be taxed (unsurprisingly) by NY.
Renounce his citizenship and move to Singapore. America isn't that great and it is only going to get worse. If you think tax rates are going anywhere but through the roof you are nuts.
Would you really want to live in Singapore? A culture-less city-state. I'd rather pay marginal taxes on my exorbitant wealth and live in the greatest city in the world (NYC) with all of the people and things that I love than move across the world away from all of that to save a few bucks.
Football Sundays alone would keep me here.
Are you planning on leaving the country anytime soon? (serious)
I love other people projecting their personal beliefs onto others. Maybe he does care about his taxation. Maybe he wants to do something else with that money. Maybe he doesn't like being soaked for no reason.
Why do people buy 5 cars? Why does Leno needs a garage to house them when people are homeless. Why do people need 3 bedrooms when they can live with 2 and house a needy person.
Free people have a right to be selfish. Personally, I would rather be burn his wealth than give a penny to the government. Least we forget that those taxes that we all patriotically pay go to fund a $700B defense budget, an interventionist foreign policy that props up dictators, corporate subsidies, etc.
The only ethical system that would support robbing the rich to help the poor would be utilitarianism. And if one was truly about maximizing utility we should sterilize or other eugenic measures large swaths of the populations.
So utility is a bad way to approach this. We could look at it from a religious perspective, but we have to throw that out as liberals hate religion.
So we should probably look at it as Americans and realize that life, liberty and property are what is important. People have a right to a chance and nothing else. Taxes are to fund a restricted and minimal Federal government, not some expansionist nanny state.
Taxes are at all time highs. End the spending through the tax code, cut income tax rates and reduce spending.
The solution is always more taxes. All we have to do is look across the pond at that failed solution. Cut spending, cut government, sell land and buildings, lay people off, cut pensions, means test SSI, reduce medicare/caid, allow people to have more of what they earn and be more free.
Or be Europe and watch the Chinese eat our lunch.
Yeah, look across the pond and see how the policy of austerity failed.
Many of my parents' UHNW friends are moving to PR for retirement. I'd do the same.
Also, to those people saying, "Paulson has enough money, the government deserves to take some," it's easy for you to say, because you're either poor, or unemployed.
No one is arguing that. What I am saying is that the idea of leaving NYC for PR over the capital gain tax rate is ridiculous when you are filthy rich and while you live in a country whose rule of law and infrastructure enabled you to make your fortune in the first place.
Also, anecdotal evidence of your parents "ultra high net worth friends" retiring in PR doesn't add up to an argument in favor of anything.
While some people might think it is insane, not everyone thinks the same. As tax rates increase people will avoid or mitigate. NYC might be more insulated from this because of its draw, but it wont be forever. Eventually people will move to another urban area with less taxation.
You can live in Houston, pay no state or city tax, have great weather and still make a killing. Just one example.
And not everyone is a billionaire. Many people feel the impact of taxation directly and will make changes to eliminate this hand in their pocket.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-07-29/atlanta-geo…
Here is a perfect example of taxation and cities without the same hold that NYC has. Detroit is another one.
Truth be told, this country did just fine for al long time without gazillionaires...hell, in the early days there wasn't even a real money supply to measure things and the gov't collected taxes in the form of grain liquer. So I'm not too worried about tax rates beyond the standard progressive structure. But as far as the government going from serving the needs of its citizens as opposed to the citizens serving the government....well, I just don't even know what to think, I've stared at this question/debate for so long that all the data is one big mushed pile of information that I have lost persepctive on.
Speaking of Puerto Rico, I think I need a vacation. I'm told auqdija is good. Anyone have any suggestions?
I love how we are saying how much a shit hole PR is and how no one would go there because of the lower taxes. Imagine if rich people went there, built houses, created jobs and the island actually got better.
I mean low taxes and regulations is what states do to bring business there. South did it well and now they are a manufacturing zone.
And what is this exit tax bullshit. Just move your assets outside of the US and leave. Throw your passport at the embassy and tell them to suck it. You go to jail for tax fraud, not an overdue tax bill. They will try and seize your assets, but you won't have any here. So you will owe a shit ton to the government which will accrue forever.
Just like when people leave this country with student loans. It isn't a crime because you committed no fraud. Just accurately file your taxes every year and never pay the bill. As long as you have no income or assets in the USA you are fine.
I'm thinking that if a bunch of half starved (mostly starved, actually) pilgrims can come to the US and discipline themselves into starting a civilization, then a bunch of folks in PR can do the same. This line of reasoning is at the heart of why I just don't put rich folks on the pedestal they're trying to convince me to. There are perks to huge capital infusions, but overall they're less absolutely necessary than they try and convince us to believe.
That slap fight video is insane. They were whaling away on each other!
Thought it fit the situation a little better than:
Puerto Rico also has insanely high electricity bills man.
And why can't we edit comments on this thread?
Once someone quotes you, you lose that option.
First World Problems. That is all.
In summary:
BTBanker: U.S. government is Robin Hood. Except bad. Ruskii: Would let him do my taxes. TNA: Not a fan of taxes. Or government. Might move out of the country once the liberals invade the south/New Hampshire. Gekko: See TNA. TheKing: Has some strange obsession with "reality" that really gets in the way of his arguments. Also, probably a Socialist. NorthSider: See TNA. Writing style also reminds me of my term papers when I had taken entirely too much adderall. UFO: Apparently the "whitest dude ever". And here I was convinced he was Asian. SirTrades: Fucking hates Puerto Rico. Edmundo: Skilled in the art of trolling. Probably instigated a few bar fights in his day.
Sorry for anyone a left out, but your posts got drowned in a tidal wave of text.
How did I know that someone would deride my argument as being "anti-reality".
In my experience, when people become cognizant of the fact that they are incorrect or their principles are inconsistent, they fall back on arguments like: "That will never be passed by Congress" (as if this were a good barometer of prudent policy - LOL).
Never trust a bureaucrat to properly implement inconsistent principles.
ITF: Screw this, let's all just mosh and listen to metal.
This thread is a magnificent microcosm of WSO in a nutshell...when the gloves are off.
^^^ GOLD
+1
Marines are overrated.
I can certify that ive seen a clear increase in cars with french plates within the nice areas of brussels since the start of the hollande presidency.
The best car plate ive seen lately was a bentley continental gt with "ISF 007" as a number plate. ISF is the impot sur la fortune, or wealth tax wich u have to pay yearely in france when u own more than 700k of hard assets. I guess this guy financed his bentley with that tax optimisation scheme lol
all i have to say to this tl;dr thread is: starve the beast
Can I ask why everyone is trying to justify taking from another person so much. If the economic argument people are advocating for higher taxes holds true why not directly apply it and rob someone. A dude with a Porche doesn't "need" it. Why not take it, sell it, buy yourself a honda and donate the rest?
This is simply criminal rationalization. Just because you vote for someone else to do your dirty doesn't absolve you of your crimes.
I thought the 75% tax rate in France never happened. Hollande proposed it but it got blocked. I guess the taxation is still pretty high though.
Anyway I doubt the average American will shed a tear when some hedge fund manager leaves the country...
It was blocked by the constitutional council for a technicality.
The socialist government talked about introducing it again, but it's possible that they are trying to delay or avoid it altogether, since they realized it's a stupid idea.
However, that's just the tip of the iceberg. They've made taxes on capital gains worse, so the few PE/VC fund managers left are leaving for London, Belgium or Luxembourg (some AM are leaving too).
The article made a wrong statement (in bold):
"Residents of Puerto Rico, an unincorporated territory of the U.S., typically pay a local tax rate of as much as 33 percent, according to Gabriel. They don’t pay U.S. taxes on income from Puerto Rico, but are taxed on dividends and interest from U.S. companies. They are not subject to capital gains taxes in the U.S. and pay a 10 percent capital gains tax locally , from which new residents are exempt."
This is how it really works with capital gains in Puerto Rico. The short term in Puerto Rico is 6 months, unlike 12 months in the US. The long term capital gain tax is 20% for everybody in Puerto Rico.
In Puerto Rico, as in the U.S., the short term capital gains rate is the same as the income rates. The difference is again the time to qualify for short term capital gains (less than 6 months in P.R. as opposed to less than a year for the U.S.) AND the tax rates for ordinary income are different than the U.S. The tax rates in P.R. are as follow:
$0 - $6,500 Tax Rate = 0% $6,500 - $23,000 Tax Rate = 7% $23,000 - $41,300 Tax Rate = 14% $41,300 - $61,300 Tax Rate = 25% 61,300 over Tax Rate = 33%
This is what residents of Puerto Rico pay in capital gains taxes (short and long), not 10% as the article stated. The Puerto Rico government passed a law in 2012 to bring all this millionaires to their shores, and not tax them on their capital gains, dividends and interest. It makes some sense for the Puerto Rico government, which is broke. Not so much for the U.S. The reality is that the fiscal situation in Puerto Rico is way worse than in the U.S. They government pensions are insolvent. They passed a consumption tax a couple of years ago (7%) to help with this. They were considering levying a 50 cent tax on ATM transactions! Crime is rampant in Puerto Rico. I think the number of murders so far this year is already around 200. Paulson is an idiot for moving from New York to Puerto Rico to save a couple of billions. Puerto Rico is a nice country to visit, not to live. He'll learn that the hard way.
Also, let's be real here. All this people complaining that the U.S. tax rates are excessive are way out of line. As you saw, the capital gains on investment in Puerto Rico are not that different from the U.S.! They have similar rates, similar rules (long vs short term). This is just a winning strategy for Paulson because the P.R. government is forgiving this taxes ONLY to those who have not lived in the island in the last 15 years and who become "new" bona fide residents. And this is the big elephant in this room. Puerto Rico is not this Utopian state where free market reigns and taxes on capital gains is ZERO. It is basically the same as the U.S., in everything. They are just drowning in debt and are changing the rules to this select few in hopes of raising enough cash to save the day.
I wonder how the locals will feel knowing that all this rich people will live in their country for 20 years, enjoy all the country's infrastructure, roads, heck, even have private beaches, and not pay a cent in taxes to the local government (except the consumption tax aka "IVU" at 7%). Also, I wonder what the U.S. will do to close this loophole. I can imagine U.S. officials already looking at this and coming with a way of stopping it. If you are doing a Paulson, better make it soon ;)
RE: Primary vs secondary market transactions. The amount of primary market transactions in the United States, both in volume and size, is a byproduct of having healthy capital markets aka active secondary markets. Liquidity is extremely important for a multitude of reasons and many of the posts in this thread overlook the effect it has on primary market transactions.
How did this thread get so off topic haha. Just about every middle aged woman looks a lot less how without make-up. I suppose once you start having kids you appreciate other qualities in a woman than physical appearance.
It's amazing to me how many people in this country can't figure out that hitting someone with 40%+ in taxes and then asking for more isn't counterproductive and will not lead to economic growth, but instead, slow the economy down.
It's amazing how many people can't see that the current tax code is hurting spending/investing which hurts the economy. Only a total socialist could agree with 30-40% of your money going down the tubes.
John Paulson is not moving to Puerto Rico.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-15/john-paulson-says-he-has-no-pl…
I guess that piece by Forbes scared the shit out of him ;)
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