MS vs JEF LevFin
Currently have offers at JEF NY (Generalist, but will be aiming for LevFin during placement process) as well as MS GCM NY (Generalist, also will be aiming for LevFin during placement). Would love to hear about the pros and cons of each group. My thoughts so far:
MS
Pros: MS name, very lean teams
Cons: Not really dominant in LevFin (not much of a balance sheet BB), heard Sponsors does most of the heavy modeling and the group itself isn't that technical
JEF
Pros: Not a regulated bank so deal flow may be more interesting, LevFin seems to get good reps in and heard that the group is pretty modeling-intensive
Cons: Balance sheet not as big as most BBs, weaker name brand than MS, platform offer for entire IBD so chances of getting LevFin are likely smaller
Levfin has been the most difficult group to place into at jefferies over the past few years for a reason. The vast majority of the class is filled with interns, so don’t think you’ll have a sure bet at getting into the group. Who knows if they even will have allocations out of the generalist pool.
True, but I heard it's pretty tough at MS as well. LevFin there is by far the smallest of the 3 GCM groups, and my school's alumni seem to be heavily concentrated in DCM and ECM, with only one person in LevFin, so placement at MS would also likely be an uphill battle.
More difficult than Jeff RX?
JEF RX is one of the easiest groups to place into at the bank. They are not known for their RX group at all since the rainmaker MDs left for moelis a half decade ago or so. they primarily do creditor side mandates but recently hired some pedigreed MDs and are trying to grow the business.
Agreed with the things being said about MS lev fin. Very competitive to get placed into, despite lack of modeling experience / being more of a pricing and capital markets desk. Other groups in GCM model much more. However lev fin does have a great culture.
Given that MS LevFin isn't very technical and MS isn't usually considered among the top for high-yield loans how are the exits for credit funds or PE from MS LevFin?
About 50% of MS lev fin analysts stay as associates. Not sure the breakdown, but PE is an uphill battle for sure. Was told by a lev fin analyst not to go if I wanted to do PE. Some other groups in GCM have PE exits though.
Jef seems like the safer bet to me for sure
The conversation here has slightly veered from comparing the LevFin groups specifically, so I thought I'd add my two cents on that part.
In my humble opinion, JEF LevFin > MS LevFin easily. JEF LevFin provides far stronger deal flow, based on league tables, as well as far stronger actual work experience from what I've heard. As you mentioned, JEF's status also provides a much more interesting experience, as they do a lot of hairy and special situations deals. The LevFin group there is intensely model-intensive and the analysts absolutely sweat their balls off, though my impression is the group is definitely very collegial and the culture isn't as bad as JEF HC, for example.
MS LevFin isn't a bad group, but MS's strong suit really isn't in high-yield loans. I can also corroborate what's been said about the less technical experience that analysts get there.
Agreed. MS GCM is really there to do relationship lending to win M&A down the line. Their lev fin isn’t even ranked in the FT league tables.
"high yield loans"
Is a joke? Obviously MS
Yeah, MS is the better long run bet for sure.
Worked at MS in IBD, and I would probably say go with Jeff in your situation. Jefferies IB has some really strong teams and does very well in its space. I am not sure how Jeff placement works, but it sounds like you could also end up on a coverage or product team? Both those outcomes would be truly in the investment banking division and have the placement to match.
The only thing you really get from MS is the name, which is quite strong. However, I do not think it’s worth giving up the experience for. Ultimately, GCM is not the same as IBD, and although you might get credit for the MS name, you will not get credit for IBD experience. Additionally, LevFin I think is one of the most competitive groups in GCM to get placed into. Unless you have an in or are in conversations with them, it might already be too late. It’s very likely you’ll end up in a traditional GCM group. Regardless of what GCM group you get placed in, exiting to PE will likely require transitioning to an IBD team after your second year. This is super common and pretty easy to do from what I gather. Just means you’ll have to spend more time on the sell side.
Listen to this guy ^ GCM has some wonky groups too like liability management, syndicate and strategic lending where exits are even worse than DCM / ECM. If you want exits, go to Jeff.
Based on your experience, how much of a bigger step up is the MS name across the street compared to Jefferies? If I wanted optionality for non-PE exits (Corp dev, B-school, VC, Corp fin, etc), would the MS name provide a much larger advantage than JEF (and be worth sacrificing the more technical and modeling-heavy IB experience and PE exit opps that JEF would provide)?
The MS name was instrumental in helping me land my next role and opened doors to a broad range of industries. However, I am fairly certain that I wouldn’t have been able to land my role if I was on a GCM team. A lot of the roles you mentioned look for an investment banking skillset and know IBD vs GCM. Thinking through the GCM class I knew, there weren’t that many exits. The best exit from GCM is to do your third year in IBD, which is quite common.
If I were in your position, my primary judgement criteria would be the skill I’ll gain. Prestige would be a very distant secondary criteria. The skillset you’ll gain from Jefferies will be far beyond that from MS. The skillset from Jefferies will also be more broadly applicable and open doors. Personally, I always thought Jefferies was super well respected. They crush it in their space and have some really strong teams. They were on the other side of a lot of deals while I was at MS. Even at MS, most deals are still in the $1-$2Bn range.
Finally, I mentioned it before but it warrants repeating that you are taking a huge gamble with GCM group placement at MS. You will most likely not end up in LevFin. When my friend applied in college, LevFin essentially ran a separate recruiting process. Chances are you’ll be in a traditional GCM or possibly in some really niche group (not a good thing). Regardless, your exit from GCM is going to be a move to IBD after two years. Instead, spend your first two years at Jefferies, and if you decide you want the name of a top BB, lateral to GS/MS. If you decide you want to exit to PE, you’ll actually have the skillset and experience that enables you to do so. I don’t see any scenario where you end up in a better place if you go to MS.
https://www.vault.com/best-companies-to-work-for/banking/most-prestigio…
Depends who you ask. My gut says MS for non PE / outside of finance exits, but this is just one take. Would love to hear other opinions.
Jeff lev fin has been doing great, would take it if you’re confident in securing a spot in the group
Everyone saying Jeff is a jeff analyst lmfao. Obviously MS. Not close at all
I mean there's literally 2 MS/ex-MS people here also saying Jefferies so the answer is clearly more nuanced than that lol
You need to think about the actual work and the skill set you will be getting. I'd go JEFF if the LevFin team holds the pen on the model, deal materials, etc.
JEF LevFin is a top group at the bank and extremely active on the street. They are top 3 in single B issuance leveraged loans which is the proxy for LBO financing. You'll have greater optionality out of there than MS despite the brand name benefits plus the added risk as you mentioned of not placing into levfin at MS and get stuck on a whacky group within GCM. At least at JEF even if you dont get LevFin, which actually is still a pretty high possibility for you, you can place into a solid coverage group like industrials or tech with relative ease.
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