Need advice- stuck in a rut
Hello,
I have had 3 interviews and have been rejected from them. I have sent out hundreds of applications and have been emailed a rejection within days. I believe the problem is that I do not have industry experience. During my education, I spent all of my time doing research and publishing papers rather than getting an internship. I am stuck in a limbo because I am told that I am too old to apply for an internship yet do not have enough work place experience to apply for a job position. Unfortunately, I have searched high and low for work place experience and no one has been able to offer anything. I have not been able to get hired. It is really tough. I am not sure what to do at this point. I would really appreciate any advice. Thank you.
Business school would help.
How would business school help if he has no business experience?
Could do an MFIN or Masters in Financial Engineering (Berkeley, UCLA, MIT, Princeton) and get a shot in OCI. Some top B schools may frown on no experience but he could still get into a competitive B-school with is background and get a shot at recruitment.
If I were this OP, the other option is to get an industry job for a few years then go into MBA program.
Use the search function on WSO. There are a lot of people in the same situation as you. You are in a better spot than a huge majority of people since you came out from a target.
Have you considered a prop shop?
Most of the applications I have sent have been to prop shops. I have sent out countless of applications but unfortunately, all of them have been emailing me rejections (no interviews). The 3 that I have interviewed at also rejected me. I interviewed at a small company (4 people) and they rejected me. Peak6 rejected me the day after round 1 interview. Citadel also rejected me after a phone interview. I am not sure which steps I should be taking now.
Any ideas where you're having trouble in the interview process? Is it technical questions, personality, etc? That could help people here formulate ideas on what you can do.
Also, it seems you're right that your lack of qualification is a significant hindrance. You may need to go back to school to rectify that (1-year MFE is what you're looking for, I think).
One really important question that hasn't been asked is what is your masters degree in from MIT? Have you read the Hull text and natenbergs text? Have you tried writing you own algorithms? Do you trade on your own book? What was your PhD in, and were you published? Is it relevant to finance or trading?
and yes tier one prop shops are just as hard to get into as a bank, however some of them do recruit year round (until they find the perfect person for the spot) which can be helpful, whereas banking follows a tight schedule. I can't imagine with your background that you wouldn't be able to get a trading or even a quant research spot anywhere.
to engineer dorks like myself, as soon as we see "civil engineering" we think dirt. how that applies to finance/trading? who knows, but you are going to have to make ti work.
Thank you all for responding and providing advice. I have a Masters S.M. Degree in Structural Engineering with an emphasis in computational modeling from MIT. My bachelors was in Civil Engineering. I have 9 publications but they aren't relevant to finance & trading. All of my publications were mainly in mechanics and materials modeling journals. I was pursuing a PhD in Civil and Environmental Engineering in Mechanics and Materials and structures but I left in early 2013 in hopes of pursuing a career in trading. I am living in Chicago now. I had called and sent emails to the companies that I had interviewed with but unfortunately, the HR recruiters did not respond. I haven't yet tried cold emailing... would that be beneficial in my case? I would be willing to intern for free to be able to get some experience... I have LinkedIn but I don't have any real connections with anyone that I can try networking with. Anytime I talk to someone who works at a certain company, they refer me to someone else who then tells me when their recruiting time is.
can you code? specifically C++/Java/R/matlab/python at a proficient level? if not, learn them ASAP, coursera is a god send.
(Accident double post-- my apologies.)
Talk to monty09 very active in both energy trading and the hispanic recruiting scene.
Just out of curiosity, why did you drop out of your PhD before first securing a job in trading? Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like a red flag for someone to simply drop out of a program without any other options.
Not saying this is the case, but 90% of the time when someone drops out of a PhD program means they failed the quals. They usually have enough credits to get a masters though.
There were no exams. There were no quals. It was just research, I have 9 first author publications, graduated Summa Cum Laude with a 3.90 with a B.S. in Civil Engineering, and maintained a 3.7 GPA during my time at MIT. It's no red flag at all. Plenty of people have left the Phd program to get into industry. I had consulted with many advisers and outside sources who had advised this as well. I was not interested in remaining in the program for 4-6 years when my passion is truly in industry. Plenty of people decide to change their career. It is interesting that you haven't seen or witnessed it in life.
Typical Student Progression in Academic Years (AY) September AY1: Student enrolls in a graduate program October AY2: Student Interview - approval of doctoral program and admission to general exam January AY2: Student passes Part 1 general exam Spring Term AY2: Student passes Part 2 of general exam and becomes a doctoral student By end of AY2: Student forms Doctoral Committee, which approves his/her thesis proposal AY5 or AY6: Student defends doctoral thesis.
From: https://cee.mit.edu/doctoral-degree-requirements-cee
There is obviously something going on here. A quick perusing of MIT's website says that you need to take the quals to be in the PhD program...like every other legit PhD program in engineering. I have no idea what your deal is, but you say your "passion" is industry, but you have never even had an internship!?!? WTF. As someone who works in a prop firm, I wouldn't even interview you based on your posts.
Protectedclass, I should have clarified in my previous post that I did not attend the PhD program at MIT, I only finished my Masters there. I started my doctorate at another target university, and their qualifying procedure was simply research, which I excelled in. Not all PhD programs are created equal. The reason I excelled in my research was simply because I devoted most of my time to it, instead of internships. Like I explained before, the markets have been a sincere hobby for me and I do keep up with current events. I do have programming experience, worked with Monte Carlo simulations, and other modeling techniques as well.
I am weighing the value of either entering MFE or continuing the search for trading positions. From a cost benefit point of view and time commitment consideration, do you think obtaining the MFE or Masters of Financial Mathematics at the University of Chicago is considerably advantageous?
(Accidental double post- I am not sure how to delete this.)
You said you have a passion for trading. What is that supposed to mean? You haven't mentioned anything whatsoever that shows your supposed passion. People also clearly think you may be a diamond in the rough and are smart, but you are blowing it in the interview. And you've had a decent amount.
My guess is you show no passio other than you claiming you have one. Do you know the markets? Do you know financial products? The economy? Basic corporate finance? Can you pitch me 2 long and 2 short ideas (well thought out)?
My passion for trading has been ongoing for at least seven years via continuously learning about the markets, reading texts, and virtual trading. It has always been a hobby for me. I do have knowledge about a various equity strategies and positions. Interestingly, formal training in finance is not a requirement for all of the positions I've applied to. It seems that someone with internship experience in trading might get preference over me. Do you think there is a substantial advantage in joining a prop shop that requires capital contribution (like T3 Trading Group).
Based on being in then industry, speaking with senior folks, and being involved in several rounds of recruiting new interns and analysts, I know the whole "continuous learnings" and "reading texts" gets no credit, even at the undergrad level where the least is expected, listing relevant coursework is a tiny benefit to show interest IF it shows enough interest that they then got an internship or did financial research or something solid.
You're in your late 20's so I think by now you should've been able to put some money where your mouth is and invest some real money behind your passion. It doesn't have to be a ton, and learning how to invest and choosing some well thought out single stocks on a limited budget is actually impressive if it makes returns. Again, even undergrads are able to take on internships during the school year. You need to pound the pavement and reach out to alumni, professors, peers, and job listings to find a temp job for relevant experience, most likely unpaid. You really need to pitch yourself as helping them out and get them to focus on how you can use your 7 years of knowledge, not your age.
It's pretty strange that you'd have the money to contribute to a prop shop but you've never invested your own money. Either way, I don't mean this as offensive, but someone as highly educated as you will likely not be happy at a typical prop shop. Given your credentials you seem like a candidate for a quant position. Give those a try. Again, not trying to be a jerk, but if you've really been so interested for the past 7 years and done a lot of learning, you may be able to wow people with your knowledge but come across as a bad fit. You didn't say, but I assume you've been interviewing for sales and trading? Personality is as important as knowledge. Maybe you need to tweak how you come across?
At the end of the day, I understand your struggle. I started on Wall Street a year before the crisis and it's simply not easy to break in anymore. We want to recruit the best talent that can hit the ground running. That unfortunately means its unlikely that you get a shot for just "being smart". An MBA is totally wrong for you, but an MFA, especially since your quanty, could be great. I would continue your interest, follow the current events and the market so you can speak to reality not just strategies, and apply to a very strong masters program THAT HAS STRONG CAREER PLACEMENT ON WALL STREET. Something like Columbia would be perfect. Then intern ALL THROUGHOUT you program.
At the end of the day, you really haven't shown a passion. You've shown some interest. Go ahead and develop that passion.
Thank you. You have given me some great advice that I need to think about.. I am thinking of applying to either UChicago's Masters of Financial Mathematics program or Northwestern's Masters of Financial Engineering. From what I have seen online, UChicago seems like it is considered more of a top program. What do you think about this? I am also not sure if I should be going this route or applying for their MBA programs?
Read the Hull text and Natenbergs texts and completely understand them, then apply to trading firms. They will teach you everything you will need to know for an entry level trading assistant/analyst position. If you've already read these, and still get knocked out in the first round of interviews, its clearly a matter of fit. I for one am surprised you haven't gotten anything more than a first round, generally background does not matter for prop firms, only your pure intelligence and personality (and in some cases knowledge of finance/derivatives) are what they assess. The only possible thing I can think of is that you either A: have no clue what a trader/quant does, which is easy to tell in an interview or B: your personality is not a good fit.
Those are two books I haven't read yet. Thanks for the advice!
You will definitely impress if you have read and can discuss Natenberg and Hull. A lot of entry level trading positions are hired based on (1) skill set and (2) fit (the rest are honestly connections). Highlight your ability to write code in R or C++ on your resume. You definitely need to come across as having specific ability and someone who they can reliably trust to do grunt work (testing and debugging). I think a lot of the entry positions at quant focused firms are like this.
I know of one kid who quit a econPhd and worked night shift doing basic coding at a quant firm in Chicago for a year before he got to trade strategies during the day and another who quit the same program and now works in the risk department at a energy desk here. Both were willing to prove themselves is rather low starting positions (competing with bachelor level candidates) before getting into trading itself. I mention this merely to suggest that maybe you could get a trade support position based on your technical skills and then leverage that into a trading career after you get industry experience.
Out of curiosity, why not get a SE license and trade for yourself? A lot less stress than trying to maintain a firm's positions.
I'm leaning more towards the issue being fit. Possibly an not being able to show that you're likable enough to sit next to for 12 hr work days. You seem to be on top of the facts and prep otherwise.
Try asking a few trusted friends to do an exercise with you where they list words that describe you. Really ask for honesty. One thing that absolutely kills people is an inability to be introspective/conscious about how you are PERCEIVED.
Thank you very much for the input.
Stop pitching that your lifelong dream has been to become a trader, its clearly bullshit. If you wanted to be a trader, you wouldn't have majored in civil engineering, let alone pursue a masters and phd in a subject that is completely unrelated to trading. At this point, I actually am convinced you are trolling.
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