Received the admission letter from Princeton Master in Finance Program yesterday. I fully understand that this is one of the most highly regarded programs on the street or in the city. But the decision for me here is between a masters degree and a banking job right out of undergrad.
So I have an IBD offer on the table now. It has very good coverage in HK/China and leads the Chinese league table but is globally unknown. Pay is 55k USD plus 1-2x bonus. From what I heard, 100k all in could be guaranteed.
The program with Princeton requires two years of opportunity cost plus 100k of tuition and living costs. But hopefully in two years it would lead to offers from top banks like goldman or MS. Difference in pay (compared to the bank I have an offer from) is marginal but professional development with the brandname Princeton might be more promising.
My interest primarily lies in banking. I like working with people/companies, not markets.
All said, what's the better option?
Can you defer attendance for 1-2 years?
I'll definitely talk to them about this but frankly speaking I'm not optimistic. This is Princeton we are talking about; the program is extremely competitive. so for the time being let's just assume that deferral is not an option.
Why do you want to do such a quanty MFin when you want to go into banking? Im guessing if you want the banking route you also have an MBA in your future, that tacks on another 150k. Thats 250k + 2 years opportunity cost. Thats a lot of dough.
I figured princeton might place well in BB IBDs. Plus compared to other prestigious masters programs like MIT/CMU/Stanford/UCB, the princeton program has a much better balance between s&t and banking. About a third of its graduates ended up in banking.
I'd say hands down go with Princeton. You think you want to do banking now but that could change a week into the job. Princeton will give you extreme optionality should you change your mind and you will be able to secure another banking job in a couple of years. The knowledge alone should help you accelerate your career, let alone the Princeton brand.
Alrite compbanker, thanks a lot for the advice. How would you compare Princeton and 2 years of banking + Princeton deferred admission?
And btw, I did my summer stint in BB IBD so I'm pretty sure I like the banking-pe route.
If you want to just work and start making money, then do that. Only you can really decide.
If you are a good money manager, your cost of capital is probably in the double-digits. Going to Princeton rather than working in industry is going to cost you $64K worth of tuition over two years, plus probably at least $300K in comp. Total cost= $364K. Add on an average of about one year's interest over two years, and you stand at $400K- you need to increase your salary by $40K/year to make school worthwhile.
I am not sure that Princeton's MSF program is going to increase your pay by $40K/year over the next 30 years. But if you want to do research or trading, the MSF will be helpful.
I got into Chicago's 1-year Finmath program, did the PV discounting on it, and realized that the optionality on an indefinite deferral was worth the deposit. If times ever get really tough for quants, I want to go back to Chicago, or I get burnt out, I've got an in. But strictly trading $40K tuition and one year of income for an MFE from a top-tier school wasn't worth it for me.
Princeton is pretty uncompromising. If you can't go this fall, they will probably tell you you'll need to reapply next year.
Hey IliProgrammer,
What do you mean indefinite deferral? Literally deferring your admission indefinitely? And they agreed to that?
Chicago is a bigger program with fewer class fit issues and they are sometimes willing to entertain the idea of a deferral outside what they state on their website. Princeton will be significantly harder- partly because they're tough to get into and can afford to be incredibly uncompromising- partly because they have such a small program and want to build their classes a certain way, but it never hurts to ask.
Don't give up the Priceton admission offer dude. You have absolutey no idea how lucky you are that they selected you and how much this degree will change your career and your life. It will be the biggest blunder of your life if you pass up this opportunity for a few $$$. This will be the kind of mistake which you will regret for a very long time.
Let's be clear- Princeton gets GREAT placements. But if you do the PV on it for someone who can earn $200K net of taxes and save $60K on tuition their first two years out of school and get 10% returns net of inflation, the difference works out to being about $13 million by retirement. And that ignores the fact that two years of experience in banking is probably going to add $50K/year to your total comp on its own.
Most MS programs add $15-20K/year pre tax to your value as an employee without adding any value as a result of experience. Princeton might add more, but if it can't add ~$300K in PV net of tax, it might not be worth it right now.
It's a trade-off that the OP has to think about. I think the question is what does Princeton have to offer in terms of training and building competence that IBD doesn't. If OP wants to be a quant, obviously Princeton would be a good choice. But if OP wants to do PE, I think two years in IBD is going to make him a more valuable employee than two years at Princeton right now at least.
That's why I think asking for a deferral is key here. 70% chance they won't give it, but if you are nice and put a positive spin on it- that you just got an offer to work in banking at X- Ms. Collins might be willing to at least think it over and sleep on it.
It's part of the global elite universities, and the average dope you meet in a coffee shop there will be more connected than most of my professors were. Two years of income vs access to one of the most powerful alumni networks on earth, in my opinion, is a no brainer.
Again.....just my opinion. Please do your homework on this.
In the grand scheme of things, money may only barely clear the top ten list of life's priorities, but prestige is at least another 10 ranks down.
Have you considered the possibility that a Chinese bank might actually pay more than Goldman and the other BB's if you plan on working in China? It's also highly possible that Chinese PE firms will reap most of the benefits in the industry there. It's all about the guanxi dude.
I think you're better off going to business school in a few years. If you build some connections while you're at the Chinese bank, there should be no problem going to a GS or JPM.
Edit: took another look at OP's post and re-ran the numbers. For a relatively unknown Chinese bank, there's a little bit less optionality than a globally well-known bank. That tilts the balance a little more towards Princeton.
I still stand by my view that IBD is a better choice here, but I'm taking it with a little less conviction. Either way, ask for a deferral. It can't hurt.
Did you go to a top level UG? If you did I'd say you might want to pass on Princeton. If you went a top school in China/HK though (Tsinghua, etc.) then I would CERTAINLY go to Princeton. Are you a Chinese, ABC, HK, white guy with China interest? Do you want to end up in China? These are critical questions.
Generaly, at least in Europe, another year of education is a way to get another stab at the application process. I don't know how useful this programme would be for the IBD route, but from what I understand you literally have to be a genius to get in and personally I would not turn down a chance to do it.
If you were able to get into the Princeton MFE, what happened that you couldn't land a Goldman/MS IB position to begin with? If those firms are your goal, definitely go to Princeton and don't look back.
If you look at who are the faculty members of the Princeton MFin program and who is the program director, you will get a better understanding of why you were selected and just how lucky you are to be selected for this program. Of course, the final decision is upto you. Just be careful about taking advice from anonymous people on an Internet forum.
Seeing that you went to school in China, my vote goes for Princeton. The name will give you global mobility and let you have options across more areas of finance anywhere in the world. Times are changing, you don't know now if you want to live in china or london or ny.... Also, don't focus too much on those PV calculations. Estimating your future earnings in finance is basically pointless, especially if you go to princeton and have a shot at making tens of millions. Maybe one day you will be shot down from an executive position because you lack pedigree to persuade shareholders, who knows.
Forget the NPV analysis because your probably going to go back to school at some point. Your just starting your career, its naive to base everything on net present value. Working as a speech writer for Obama pays shit, but its a good experience for any future job.
MofF at Princeton is like HBS, but better for banking/conulting. If you can't defer, and you want to be in banking or consulting long-term, you should still go to Princeton.
....
honestly i wouldn't go to princeton if you're interested in banking; literally nothing you learn there will be relevant. if you're smart enough to get into the princeton mfin program then you should also be able to get into a good business school in a couple years and do that instead, which will offer you a much more relevant and useful network and teach you more that's relevant. the only reason you would want to do princeton is if you think that you're actually an idiot and only got in because you got really lucky and have no chance of getting into stanford gsb or hbs in a couple years
.....
that is such an egregious lie. half the people in the program can barely even speak english, there is no way in hell they would ever be seriously considered for hbs
Princeton is not an MFE. It is a more quanty MSF. Placements from Princeton are phenomenal. If you love finance and know that is what you want to do for life and also don't want to take two years off, the MSF from there is what you want to do.
I'd take the GS of China over Princeton in this specific case.
You're right. We don't know how much he'll earn. It could be an extra $13 million. Or it might not be an extra $13 million. Here's what we do know- he has to earn $13 million FV over his career to make up the difference.And while we don't know what the upside for a Chinese BB is quite yet, we do know that it's probably worth $100-150K/year his first year, probably an extra $30K his second. In a growing industry/country like that, OP could wind up in a position similar to a GS MD if he gets in now. In two years, we don't know; he'll probably be getting hired in under people- maybe TraderJoe if he wants that same job.
The priority here needs to be earning money- especially in an industry where pay is coming down globally over the next couple years. MS's are also much more valuable with a few years of relevant experience. OP needs to ask Princeton for a deferral, subtly reminding them that a rejection is a 4% hit to their admit rate.
Absolutely, but the real question is whether B-school makes sense if you've got a great opportunity in industry.My view is that reputation is something you create- not something that's given to you by virtue of where you study or work. Someone who's smart enough to get into Princeton and who has an opening at the GS of China can't afford to wait two years. He needs to take that opportunity now, make his own reputation there now, and worry about an MSF/MFE/MBA in a few years. In a growing area like China or India, two years is a much longer time than here in the US.
You're right. We don't know how much he'll earn. And while we don't know what the upside for a Chinese BB is quite yet,
^ two quotes excerpted from above, I'm too tired to care from who, see comments below:
That's the point. In two years he could be in a situation that's choking for all we know. Coming from Princeton, you lose your job......you make a phone call. Seriously, this is a no brainer. If you REALLY want to think long term, get the degree, work a few years and then get and MBA. Every base covered, maybe get a Phd later in life just to blow out the degree spectrum. So you give up two years of work.....in the big picture, that's nothing. I know people that took off half a decade to go into the military and came back and still rocked out, and there's a lot of guys on this site who did as well
For what it's worth, learn from someone else's mistake: years ago, I rebelled against my parents and didn't apply to Princeton at the last minute, it was almost a formality: and a girl I went to high school with (who I got better scores than, and was MUCH better connected than) got accepted to Princeton but didn't go because she didn't want to be the 'poor' girl on campus. Strange but true, as not everyone there is from wealth. We both ultimately went to the same state school, and both got very good gigs in finance. We're both going to VERY good grad schools and all is well with the world: but looking back, we could have accomplished what we did with a lot less effort and a lot more peace of mind compared to someone we both know that DID go to Princeton.....so I'm urging you to consider it VERY carefully.
Ultimately, only you know what's best, so I don't have much more to say. Either way you will make far more money than you actually NEED to survive, but access to the upper tier of the world's network vs a few bucks is not to be taken lightly.....
I can only say that I am very surprised at the number of people on this forum who are trying to discourage this dude from going to Princeton. This guy has got the biggest, luckiest break of his life which will forever change his career and his life. Yet, people are coming out with NPV calculations and comparing the Princeton MFin degree with making a down payment on a condo. Obviously you have no idea how much this guy will earn in his career with the Princeton MFin degree. Or else, you are jealous of this dude and are trying to ruin his career. What is the point of comparing the Princeton MFin with the MBA from Harvard and Stanford? Does he have those in hand? Do you have any idea how difficult it is for an Asian Male to get admission into Harvard or Stanford MBA programs?
Dude, you only live once, Why spend the best years of your life working, when you can have a second shot at the college life. It's like being a senior in college and have the chance to go back to high school, equipped with the knowledge you know after being a few years out. You will be able to rock that place. THe brand name of Princeton is fantastic. You can work until your old, grey, and have to take cialis, but you cannot experience life and college at the peak of your like except now. Go to Princeton, get a great network of friends and business contacts, get laid by some chicks, have the time of your life that you did/didn't have back in undergrad. You have to realize that life is finite, and money is just paper and will always be there, but an amazing experience at such a young age is non-replaceable
First off, I think that $13M number IlliniProgrammer keeps throwing out is EXTREMELY misleading. I'm assuming he got there by saying:
Money at retirement = 260K * 1.1^(41) = 12.9M
But who on this board is really planning on retiring at 63-64 years old? More importantly, it's not like you would bank that 260K as retirement savings. Even if you live frugally according to the Tao of IlliniProgrammer, you'll probably have max $50K saved after 2 years of work ($200K pre-tax = $110-120K post tax...).
That point aside, I think I have a little bit of personal insight to offer. I did my undergrad at HYP and had an amazing job offer in finance. But I also had the chance to spend a year getting a Master's abroad. Neither degree is technically in finance, but both are in highly quantitative fields. I ended up deciding to pursue the Master's, and for the first part of the program, I really regretted my decision, mostly because of the large sum of money I had given up to be there. That said, after a little bit, I remembered why college is incredible, and ended up being very pleased with my decision to take the extra year. Once you start working, the freedom you have as a student to travel, take days off, and do random things disappears and you can't get it back until you retire. Do not underestimate what a gift it is. For reference, I ended up with the same job at the same firm, so I guess it didn't technically advance my career in any way (so far, at least). But I still would make the same decision if I had to do it over.
I guess my real point is this: think about what will make you happier over the next two years. You clearly are extremely talented and will have no trouble finding good jobs in or out of finance over your career, and you will never struggle for money. Trying to think about whether an extra couple million dollars when you are 60 years old is better or worse than having some fun (grad school is no undergrad, but it beats banking) when you are 23 is a fruitless exercise. Just think about what you'd enjoy doing right now and trust that no matter what you choose your career will be just fine.
flat out go with princeton.
you will always work in your years to come
say your cost is 100k tuition total , 100k of missed salary and im sure youd be able to work doing something to put together at least 25k a year over summers and thru grants etc...so all in cost 250k
the goodwill you will gain in return is already going to be worth far more than that
you come out at age say 25-26 and will most likely never do any more schooling, and have access to a seriously lucrative network.
Again, this has nothing to do with money. 20 years from now, this will be chump change, but the network will remain open....
IlliniProgammer works so hard to prove that state schools are just as good as the top ivy league schools. Notice that no one ever tries to do the opposite. Tells you something, doesn't it?
Where you went to school or "prestige" does not guarantee anything, but it certainly makes it easier to get your foot in the door. I went to Princeton and believe me my college buddies are insanely successful. Out of the 6 different roommates I had, 1 went to MS M&A and is now a principal at one of the top PE funds in the world, another went to Lehman and is now at a top PE shop, another one is a lawyer at one of the top law firms in the world, and the last one is doing a surgery residency. Another one has done well, but nothing fancy. And, I will admit that one of the other roommates was and still is a total fuck up. He ended up graduating in 5 years.
The crazy thing is that my experience is not out of the ordinary - it's pretty much the norm. You can't tell me the same is true at state schools, even the top ones. If you tell me it is true, I just won't believe you because I know a lot of kids that went to state schools.
I am not trying to diminish the strength of state schools. I think you can get a top notch education anywhere and some of the smartest people I know went to state schools. But I do think that the top schools are top for a reason - they give you access to some of the most amazing opportunities, both academically and professionally.
The question is what opportunities you get. OP doesn't have an in at just MS- he has an in at the GS of China- a market that's growing at 10%/year and is arguably where the US was back in the very early '80s- high inflation, tens of millions of jobs getting created, and an increasingly liberalizing government. This is the foundation for a huge financial boom- one he might only catch the tail end of if he enters the work force two years later. Bear in mind that the most successful and famous bond trader of the '80s here in the US went to a community college in Brooklyn and wore polyester suits to work.
I'm not saying Princeton isn't a great opportunity- I'm just saying that the work experience the OP is getting is going to be even better. It would be like getting into tech VC back in the early '90s. If you're one of the early folks on the scene, you can worry about prestige and networks later- you've got the opportunity to build work experience and a reputation now. Maybe OP won't get back into Princeton, but he can always get into a similar school in the Econ/Math rankings like Harvard, MIT, Stanford, or Chicago.
Dude, this isn't even funny. You are trying to convince a young dude to make the most colossal blunder of his career and screw up his career by turning down the Princeton offer. He will have a lot of bitter feelings later on if he listens to you and your NPV calculations which are just quite ridiculous.
If he misses out on one of the biggest financial booms in history, he'll have bitter feelings too.
He needs to ask for a deferral. Failing that, the choice is really between industry success and prestige. China isn't the US in 2011. It's the US in 1983. If he waits until 1985, it will be too late- there will be a bunch of people hired in ahead of him and he will miss some of the best opportunities. Even Princeton won't be able to make up for that.
He can always go to another school just like Princeton later, and it actually is kinda funny to say that one school is going to make this huge difference in someone's career that his/her work product and later education won't be able to make up- especially in an economy that's growing at 10%/year.
If this really is the #1 investment bank in China and the country continues growing economically and financially like it has, I have a feeling that OP will rue the day he picked a two year MS over industry. He will rue it a little less because he turned it down for Princeton, but it will still hurt. And turning down something that ranks #20 on life's list of priorities (prestige) for something that ranks #10-12 (career opportunities) is rarely something you regret quite as much.
It's funny, people are now coming out of the woodwork attacking Illini, but nobody's offered any real concrete reason to go to Princeton other than it's the best school in the universe with the greatest exit ops in the universe. However, nobody has mentioned what those exit ops might be. Herein lies the problem:
The OP wants to do banking. As far as we know the OP is sold on banking and has an offer from a top bank (yes, I consider the top banks in China a "top bank" if one is to get that experience in China.) He already HAS the best exit op that he can have for what he wants. Now we all know school is a means, a means to an exit op, especially in the finance world. I fail to see what better exit op going to Princeton will offer him than he already has. If he wants to go into a hedge fund, if he wants something quanty, if he wants S&T, it's a different story, but he WANTS BANKING and he's GOT BANKING. So what am I missing here?
Are we saying he might get Goldman after Princeton? That's asinine to think Goldman is such a step up from what he has now that it's worth two years of your life. So, what else? Where is Princeton taking him that he isn't already? Princeton is great. Princeton offers great things...however, the novelty of that pretty much wears off when you already have great things lined up. One is an end, one is a means to that very same end...so I don't see the point other than the fact that he will retire 2 years later than he originally would have. And this constitutes what would be the "biggest mistake of his life?" Give me a break. And, yes, I went to a top target, so this is not coming from any place other than common sense.
The only argument I could possibly entertain is that Princeton will set him up for better exit ops from banking down the line or better advancement within banking, which I think is ridiculous. We all know that within banking it's a combination of politics (85%), competence (10%) and great performance (5%) that moves you up the ladder. We all know for exit ops from bankings it is network, bank reputation, group reputation, experience within that group, and politics.
I think Illini is dead on with this one. Everybody that thinks the OP has some major upside by going to Princeton is ignoring the fact that he's already near the top with his other opportunity. Furthermore, he's most likely going to need an MBA down the line to advance, which immediately overwrites any MSF experience. I'm sure he's qualified to get into a big time B-School. I wouldn't sweat it.
Thanks Rebelcross. I guess our problem is that we try to stick to facts and analysis and realities rather than drinking too much of the social status kool-aide.
If you are a college undergrad and are getting anywhere up to middling offers from bulge brackets, or if you are on the quantitative or asset management tracks and already have work experience, Princeton has a great program- arguably the best in the country, albeit with a number of close runners-up. However, it is not so great that you should drop everything if you have an offer to work in trading at GETCO or Citadel or a very strong group at a Top Five BB in an area you want to work or the #1 BB in a country with 10%/year economic growth. Because those are the kinds of offers you'd expect after spending two years at Princeton, and you'd probably develop the same or higher-quality network working there two years as you would at Princeton- just while gaining experience and developing your reputation (and collecting a paycheck for what it's worth.)
Again, to reiterate- OP #1 needs to ask for a two year deferral- it's in both Princeton's best interests and his, and #2, needs to think long and hard before turning down the #1 or even #2 BB in China.
As some one who DID give up an offer at a GETCO/Citadel/etc type firm, I think Illini is being ridiculous. I don't completely blame him for his reasoning: I went through the same process. I was very concerned that by taking an extra year to get a Master's I would let other people get ahead of me in line (and at a place that is small like GETCO, it seems like you'd be measurably farther down the totem pole). I was afraid of "missing the boom".
But the truth is, that's bullshit. Sure it would have been great to have been a bond trader starting in 1983. But it's not like people who started on Wall Street in 1985 (or any other year since) have ended up poor.
So to the OP I return to my original point: Stop thinking about your career for a second and think about what you WANT to do. Despite all of Illini's (questionable) NPV calculations, I would say that it's very difficult to predict right now which option would lead to a greater net worth at, say, age 40. So don't bother trying. You've got two great options. Just pick one, relax, and enjoy the last few months of undergrad.
Yep, this guy is in a good spot. I'm curious how it plays out....
Well, it really sounds like peoples' previous choices for their own lives are all influencing their advice here. Everyone wants to be right about the choice they personally made- that they didn't waste two years in some program or that they didn't give up the oportunity to join a prestigious network.
OP has to make his own choice, but don't think it hurts to first ask for a deferral.
I still think you are missing my point Illini. I'm saying that things like "joining a prestigious network" shouldn't be part of the decision process. Like I said, choosing to spend another year in school has (so far) done absolutely nothing for my "network" or my career. It was a year purely for fun and learning more or less just for personal enjoyment. What I'm suggesting is that OP do what so many people on this board can't: stop thinking about their career for two seconds and just be a 22 year old kid. That's not to say that going to Princeton would necessarily be better than taking the job, but that money, "prestige", and "network" are all the wrong reasons to make a choice like this (and anyway, the difference in the above quantities between these two options is incredibly small, if any).
Not sure why you feel that this is the best approach to decision making and not the approach suggested earlier on this thread by myself and Illini, but I'll leave to personal preference. I'm not sure that there's much value-add to what you are suggesting (in a non-monetary way), as you do grow as an individual through work in the industry just as much as you would in college (if not more.) I don't know that "being a 22 year old college kid" is the best rationale for doing Princeton MSF. Maybe better suited to certain other schools that have more of a "party" culture.
oh btw, princeton will let you complete the program in one year if you have a job offer waiting for you after you graduate. that's probably important to know
Are you sure about this arden? what's your source of info?
talking to the director of the program
OP said he got two years, but that might be worth him talking about with the program director.
1) The MSF at Princeton is ball busting and no joke. This isn't four years of undergrad where you can pal around. You will be cranking your ass off. You will make friends and you will have the name, but lets not over estimate the relationships and direct connections you will build.
2) The MBA is still the main graduate degree for banking. Having an MSF is wonderful, but it is not extremely well known or common place. I am working hard to change this, but everything takes time.
3) You get an MSF to get into a top firm. If you are already in, work there and do an MBA later. The time and money spent on a masters, when you already have an amazing offer is not worth it.
4) Illini is correct in calculating things. Education is a trade off. Maybe you get all kinds of utility from collecting diplomas (I do also), but getting a masters is not always the best thing.
5) You don't need a masters for finance. Banking is high school stuff. A MSF will not give you an advantage in banking.
If the OP is generally happy with the job offer and he will be doing some banking, I would skip Princeton. If not, he should seriously consider going since he will likely have better opportunities coming out. If he's got a lower BB offer (or an equivalent for China), I would probably just take the offer. Anything lower than that and I would go to Princeton.
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