Quit PhD?
Hi All,
So currently doing a PhD in Applied math/computational physics at a top UK school. Loving research but not really enjoy academia - supervisor is really not good. I could stick it out, but I'm worried about the lack of job availability/pay afterwards. I'm really interested in finance and am looking to move in that direction. So what do I do?:
a) get a internship in finance and stick out the PhD.
b) Find a full time position and quit the PhD with a masters?
Will getting a PhD help in the long run? Or am I just wearing myself down for no reason? I can handle the work load fine, its all the other sacrifices - like the complete lack of respect from superiors/academics who see you as a cheap source of labour, coupled with the lack of money and having to live in halls because its the only rent I can afford ect. I've got to the point where I'm asking myself why I'm doing this to myself any more? I came top of my class, half the people who did half as well as me are doing far better than I am :/ - I cant even afford to run a car, let alone get on the property ladder.
I've always had a work hard play hard attitude, but a PhD is all work and very little play.
I have also considered quitting and becoming an actuary - work looks a tad boring but doable, but keep being told I'm over qualified. Also looked into catastrophe modelling which is a bit more of a quant orientated role.
Trader looks interesting, but I get the feeling you have to pay for you own education/training in advance?
Then theirs quant - more roles look for a PhD I think? So not sure if quitting would be wise?
All in all really stuck as to what I should do? Any advice will be gratefully revived.
I would advise you to finish what you started. You can always do an internship in between your semesters and get a FT offer that way. In terms of roles, given you background you would probably be an interesting candidate for all quantitative oriented roles at Banks. Maybe even Hedge Funds, there are a few who only recruit from non-finance backgrounds...
Finish your PhD and get a quant role at a BB, PE or HF.
There you go again. How the hell would you know? You are an intern.
It was pretty solid advice...
Do PE funds have quants? Never heard of that.
Doesn't matter. The advice was solid, as the message was "finish and then go do sth else".
Quick caveat: Prospective but I will only give advice on what I've seen over and over on these forums from certifieds and my own (limited) experiences.
OP, how far are you in your PhD studies? That's very relevant. If you are just a year or so into a long program and you feel this dead...there's a real possibility you'll want to quit. That's not coming from the financial viewpoint, that's the former budding academic in me speaking. As you probably know PhD is something you do if you are very passionate about the field and almost can't imagine doing anything else. PhDs are hell. I don't blame you for getting burned out. There's a reason a lot of people quit. It's not because they're losers, it's because the PhD wasn't for them in the first place.
Now, what I've gathered from lurking for years here, I am pretty sure the only roles that really look for PhDs are the heavily quantitative roles...stuff like quant analyst (math/physics/similar) or developer (comp sci).
However, private equity, investment banking, corporate stuff don't care at all about PhD. I think it's even rare for traders to have a PhD...again, only the really quantitative roles at some hedge funds seem to at all desire it.
Having said that, plenty of people I've talked to in the field and books I've read advised against going for a PhD solely to get one of those jobs. It could be that they won't like the work once they get there, or that it's not as necessary as one believes, or whatever else I might not be thinking of. The reasons are various, but take that for what it's worth.
My answers have been a bit scattered and my actual experience is limited. I can only share what I've learned, and I'm open to be corrected if I screwed up somewhere. But I hope these questions give you a different mindset and help you evaluate your position.
EDIT: Even though I said quitting might be an option from discussions I've had with friends who have withdrawn, make sure it really is that terrible that you'll want to do so.
Hi guys thanks for your comments.
To clarify I'm just over a year and a bit in and I wouldn't be leaving empty handed - I get a Mphil, a masters qualification in Applied Math and computational physics form a good Uk uni.
If I do keep going however I'm worried about limiting my career options. There are few academic jobs - I knew this before going into phd, but industry is really poor too, and then there’s finance. Very interested in the math side of finance etc but I don't just want to end up as a coder :/. What are the roles like in HF and BB? I'm told the quant environment is "like grad school" - doesn't fill me with hope - are these jobs stressful?
Would going into IB or trading be a better option? Similar pay/no PhD required/no uncertainty (will the quant bubble burst?) etc. Are there roles in finance where I can use my math/code abilities but not be problem solving all day long? Cheers Guys
Alrighty now we're getting somewhere.
http://www.markjoshi.com/downloads/advice.pdf
Check that out. That'll demystify a lot of the different quant jobs and maybe give you some insight into strategies. Also check out wilmott.org, quantnet.com, and nuclearphynance.com if you want to learn more about quant-specific stuff.
With regards to the quant bubble bursting...HFT continues to get more and more hate from outsiders, so I'm not sure if/when regulation is going to come and what it'll do to the space. Having said that, HFT is not the only kind of quant strategy out there...there's plenty of strong algos that hold for longer and perform well.
I think when they say like grad school, they mean in terms of the social vibe...but this is complete speculation and I don't feel qualified to give a confident answer to that specific question.
With regards to pay, this is tricky. There are things like Hagan-Ricci Group (hrg.net) which posts positions that provide compelling compensation. But the really, really big bucks in the quant space are all in quantitative trading/portfolio management, which does many times seek for people who did a previous quant job to transition into, but it's not guaranteed transition and it's also possible to skip that step.
At least to me, it has always seemed like the "typical" quant jobs provide unreal pay compared to most exit options with a PhD, but the ceiling is reached relatively soon until you start risking stuff or bringing in business, which is standard across finance.
It's possible to make significantly more outside the quant space (not trader or portfolio manager), but I have no idea how much harder that is. Again, the biggest money comes from bringing in business and taking risk. Quantitative jobs are very difficult and are in demand and the pay is good but I'm not sure how quickly it goes up after the entry level.
So check out those resources and hopefully by this point someone more knowledgeable than me can contribute. Best of luck with learning more and making your decision.
Complete your PhD and don't stress too much. Everything will work out fine.
Remember, when you'll die, you'll be dead for millions of years, so enjoy this tiny short time that you're alive and have fun.
This. Try not to stress out about it. Make the best out of your current situation whilst being aggressive about your next move(s)
Why don't you apply during this fall for summer internship in quant roles? When I interned in a major BB in London they had 10-12 people there interning in Quantitative Analytics / Research and they were PhD students or people with advanced masters in Math, Physics, etc. (e.g. http://joinus.Barclays.com/emea/investment-bank/quantitative-analytics/).
If you are able to get in, you can spend 3 months doing something different from you PhD and, at the same time, you will understand if quant finance is right for you. At the same time, if they make you an offer to join, you will have a reason (a real full time job) to quit your PhD. While I was there, I met a Director which started is banking career as a PhD student (in Economics). After her second year, she joined a bank as a summer associate intern in IBD and realized she prefered banking to academia. Worked hard, got an offer for joining FT and quit the PhD (with the offer already in her hands).
I don't know if my point is clear now, but I would advise you to go on with your PhD (and possibly finish it) and, at the same time, look around for the job you may like and ONLY with if you already have a FT offer in your hand.
yeah - start applying and decide after you get the offer in hand or an internship.
What's there to lose?
I have very limited experience in the quant field, but from what I've heard from more academically inclined friends:
1) People can say you are overqualified to do actuarial work, but if you pass the first couple exams (a bit of work, but very doable), you will get hired. The shortage is that bad. 2) Cat bond modelling is apparently pretty intellectually engaging if you are a math geek. Have no idea how you would break in, but have heard an exotic derivatives quant salivate over the prospect.
All in all, this is why being very judicious about your P.I. is critical in choosing a Ph.D. program.
As someone in a similar situation but a bit further along (I'm about a year from my PhD in mechanical engineering at a top US university), I have spent a lot of time thinking about the same problems you are having. That said, I'm still in school too so I haven't proven that anything I am about to say is correct.
I think taking an internship is in your best interest. Your skillset is probably well-suited to fit a quantitative roll in finance, but without the PhD or any finance training you might have some issues just getting your foot in the door. If your school is anything like mine (and it may not be), it feels like a bit of a masters degree mill -- there is a yearly rotating group of students who stay a year and then leave with a masters. My feeling is that the great universities get their reputations not through those students, but rather their faculty and the research of the PhD students. Savvy employers may recognize this and discount your masters degree accordingly. However, they can't ignore your PhD.
If you stay on your PhD track and have time to do an internship, you're going to simultaneously develop the technical skills that make you a highly desirable candidate for quantitative rolls while gaining finance experience that makes you seem less risky to a potential employer once you've finished your degree.
Yeah, quant at a PE fund...
Edit: Didn't see Annihilist's post. I can only hope that users who are ignorant about matters beyond their current competency refrain from dispelling nonsensical advice.
As for OP, how are your programming and machine learning chops? I would actively take part in TopCoder, Kaggle and independently work on some relevant quant projects - doing these properly should get you noticed by many quant funds and head hunters. Internships in quant trading aren't as critical as other areas of finance but they are certainly quite beneficial so try and attain one which puts a lot of emphasis on programming. If you feel you're ready there's little reason for you to continue with your PhD. While many quant funds state that they require "a PhD in a quantitative discipline from a top tier institution" you will realize that in many instances they will still hire a capable candidate who lacks those credentials.
James Simons also earned a PhD in math, then started a hedge fund and successfully made a lot of money. So it looks like it's doable.
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