I am a third year development associate and currently work 60 hour weeks and am compensated at 100k per year before 15% bonus. I understand these are not investment banking hours, but the 60 hours are very full hours. Non stop underwriting/project management and lunch at my desk everyday. Do these hours get better as you climb the ladder? I have so may friends who are in consulting and financial advisors and pull in what I pull in but seems like play a lot more golf during the week and have better work life balance. Just wondering if it gets better with time.
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Welcome to real estate lol
I enjoy it, but damn it feels like there’s better avenues with better hours sometimes. I guess I just think my comp will get better and I can run my own shop one day lol
Same at my development shop. Typically 50-60 hours but everyone is busting their ass the whole time. It can be less than chill for sure. Definitely higher stress than I expected - not really the number of hours but the weight of the work. This is especially the case with my managers (I’m an analyst) - the work is definitely giving them grey hairs on a pretty consistent basis.
Better this way than not busy enough (especially at the junior level), but it still blows sometimes to see my peers working 9-4:30 with a lunch break and making almost the same amount.
As you move up it gets better in the sense that you aren’t in excel working the model up late at night. You may be working late on a legal doc, but for the most part, the hours get more consistent. It Could also be the firm you work for. Generally, the lower risk investors have better hours than the opportunistic shops. Also, being that you do more than just acquisitions, you’re doing two jobs in one. The larger firms, or firms where you specialize, will tend to have better hours because you do one thing only.
I've also been thinking a lot about this lately.... CRE is enjoyable, but the hours aren't as great as people make them out to be. Which is fine, but getting paid way less than other industries isn't great.
Agreed with all of the above. I thought development was going to be regular 40-45 hour weeks with some occasional late nights. Seems like the 40 hour weeks are the holiday time exceptions and the late nights are more the regular.
What about CRE sales associate? About to start out after I graduate, what are the average hours worked if doing leasing at a boutique shop?
As you move up in leasing it’s 40-50 hours per week. Starting out, you can work any 12 hours of the day, as long as it’s 12 hours. But in all seriousness, it can be a 9-5 job but you see most of the super successful young brokers working 8-8 or 7-7 type job. The hours before 9 AM and after 5 PM are prepping for meetings coming up. And between 9 AM - 5PM it’s all about business development.
this is great insight, thank you!
So, the reality is that most of the white-collar professional world works 50+ hrs a week (but I mean, who keeps a time card??), so 50-60hrs for "junior" people is common in lots of fields, real estate is no exception. I think it is the IB/PE crowd that settles into the 80+ hour work work, and accounting gets a fair workout around tax deadlines. The reality is that fields that offer massive upward potential (RE development qualifies) will make it easy to bust any 40-45 hr time bound, and while you are junior your more likely to need to swap more hours for more productivity (this is universally true for all fields). Hence, if you are thinking pay and hours correlate in the professional world, they really don't! Lot's of people with college degrees making less than 100k are working equal hours (all to avoid a boring ass job in theory).
Yes, as you get more senior, you will probably be more efficient, productive, and just be in better command of your work. You also get judged far more for your actual production and results and will stop giving a shit about "being seen in the office". You also are smarter at saying no to stuff and of course........ get to "delegate" time consuming bullshit, yet important work to junior team members (i.e. you right now!).
Final point, firms and even cities have different cultures around work hours. At my shop, the offices (okay... pre-covid statement) generally are empty by 6pm unless there is some crunch deadline or deal underway (then all-nighters and weekend work occur), this probably hits each team maybe 3 or 4 times a year. In NYC, where I am, there is absolutely a "work late" culture for all industries/professions.... and people stay well beyond the point of marginal productivity (I mean, so much "waiting around" time). I never seem to see the same thing when I visit west coast offices, different culture (but I assure you, they work just as hard).
Depends on the office culture I've found. Geographically, east coast is definitely more gung-ho about working late. West coast is more chill
We are suckers, to be blunt. It is the harsh reality. Working 60+ hours (which people may forget to put in context is 8 AM-8 PM 5 days a week at the minimum, you live for the weekend essentially, is that a way to live life?) and settle for lower pay compared to the pay in other industries or at best around the same pay means there are a lot of suckers in this industry. It is what it is, but if you are a glass half full kinda guy you can think it is not terrible in the sense that you can live a comfortable upper middle class life, it is white collar work and in front of the computer, it is not manual labor and bonuses in some shops can be sweet but it is not guaranteed and it can be a hit or miss. I get it, the mental gymnastics we do to convince ourselves is that we are all going to become "entrepreneurs" and developers and do deals on our own. But c'mon cut the bullshit, most of us will end up still being salaried+ bonus folks. A very small % of us end up truly doing deals on their own, that is something in commercial worth bringing up and not buying 1-4 unit multi. At best, when I consider "making it" for some people, it will be a top acquisitions guy at a place like Invescorp and that is still a long shot, "making it" is not creating your own Invescorp, chances of that are very miniscule. Sure your pay goes up then but there can still be long hours and stress. End of the day, we are all capable of making a decision for ourselves, we can do mental gymnastics all day and convince ourselves of whatever we want to believe or we can decide what's the best use of our time.
Be careful man. I started thinking like that when I first started working and now I’m a dirty nihilist
10 years ago when I started working, I was pumped actually. Started off earning 100K+ right off the bat with a 50% bonus on top of it, what was not to like as an early 20's guy. But then over time, started to look at my pay per hour as opposed to total pay. Realized what I really value in life is having dinner with my wife, spending meaningful time with the people I love, etc. Working till 8 PM or later and then if possible spend an hour or two with the people you like after that (but still be a zombie because of lack of sleep plus working long hours) go to sleep, wake up next day, rinse and repeat was just not fun regardless of how much I earn. I was doing jack shit with the money I earn anyway lol, did not have the time to spend it during the week. I was not going to live life just longing for that one or two vacations per year to spend money on. I am not very materialistic, a bigger home or a nicer car just does not add that much value for me in terms of happiness. I am still in CRE but switched jobs, took a slight paycut (at least in terms of base pay but bonuses may or may not make up for it) and I am so much happier now. To each his own. There is something out there for everyone.
Ouch. This is a tough post to cruise through as I've been considering the jump to development... My boss makes $500-600k and works AT MOST 40 hours a week. Then again, I work the typical 55-60 and that's why he makes that much working 35-40. Hopefully I'll get his job one day lol
At least its Friday, folks
Fs in the chat.
whats your job?
Stolly-Roeschlaub analysts entered the chat. I know a lot DE and IS analysts get fucking worked...
Institutional Capital Markets associate in nyc here. 65 is average. You’re never truly off the clock. If you don’t want to be a broker, it doesn’t make sense to be here more than a year with how demanding it is.
Are most people here in Dev or acquisitions? Anyone have an exit strategy besides the hope of finding a shop with balance? In my head I’m just trying to crank it out, enjoy what I can, save some money, and maybe go into brokerage on the sales side one day? There’s a lot of idiot brokers out there and I feel someone that understands can kill it in the secondary/tertiary market where the big HFF/JLL guys are not playing. As crazy as it sounds, would just like some more balance
In development and agree with you. Even joining a JLL/HFF in a secondary market....you could eventually kill it. It’s just that starting out period in a new market that would suck. Once you’re established though, you should be able to make it rain.
Not sure how much better the hours will be in brokerage because you always have to be “on” for the client. That means taking calls in the weekends, etc. The more senior you are you can delegate a lot of the work and strictly manage the relationship. But if the client wants to talk at 2AM....you are talking at 2AM to collect that fee.
Unfortunately I think you’ll find just because it’s a secondary or tertiary market and the big players don’t cover it, those markets are already covered by local brokers and it’s just as hard to win business. Just because the big players aren’t there doesn’t mean there aren’t smart players in the market already. Tertiary markets are just as competitive as the primary.
I think the "exit strategy" that is appealing depends a lot how much one values $$$ and "prestige" vs. time/independence/stress/etc. I always see it as two distinct paths to getting a good earnings to hours ratio (i.e. maximize $ per hour)...
1. Specialty/Expertise/Experience - Essentially become a top expert or specialist in a field or a top manager/producer type that can just command a lot of money for knowledge or connections/reputation, etc. The key is your value is derived in a way that is high impact generally not related to raw hours worked. Attorneys, accountants, appraisers, consultants, etc. can do this if they focus/pick correct area of specialty. There are jobs/roles in buyside (and sellside I'd suppose) that can be similar, capital markets/capital raisers, research/strategy (disclosure.. my field), compliance, and even portfolio/fund management have this potential. This is not universally a list of fields with "low" hours, but at the senior levels it can get very balanced while maintaining super good compensation. If you go to far and enter executive leadership (or start own firm...) you will probably trade the balance for tons more hours and comp (just facts). The other big part is that you probably have to work insane hours, get extra degrees and/certifications/etc, and really bust ass for many years (like 15-20+) to get where you can harvest the trade-offs (assuming you still want high comp).
2. Get a low stress/time type job - Spoiler alert... these exist but probably don't pay that well (base can be competitive but bonus low or even non-existent). Possibles include corporate real estate, economic development, some bank-lending jobs, government jobs, university jobs, some consulting jobs, property management, non-profits, etc. To be fair, there can be high stress/time type jobs on that list (and maybe high pay as well), but overall I'd say the trade-off of more free time for less pay is common.
So, those are what I see as "exit strategies". First option is like a "work hard now" for "payoff later" type strategy. Second option is trade pay for time. Bottom line, it's all tradeoffs!
All I know is that it feels like I've been on permanent vacation ever since I switched from architecture to development. I wince when I get updated drawings in 9PM emails from the type who would have been my boss if I'd stayed.
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