Recommendation to abuse diversity programs.

Intern in IB-M&A

As someone who goes to a completely non-target school, I think abusing diversity programs has truly been the way to go. In my business frat, the few kids that manage to break into top IB firms (BB/EB/MM) have generally been women, or people that identified as Hispanic or African American.

But here's the issue with that - the people that are getting funneled in through diversity programs are people that live very privileged lives. They're rich minorities. Despite saying that these minority programs are designed for the banks to bring underprivileged groups into IB or whatever, it really doesn't. It ignores low-income and first-generation students.

If you're Filipinx? Put that you're Hispanic. Spanish? Put that you're Hispanic. That's what was recommended by my fraternity - and firms really can't verify that kind of stuff. It was the same thing for college admissions - if you're Filipinx or Spanish, you were supposed to put down that you were Hispanic to raise your chances of getting into a college. Or, if you don't qualify for any diversity programs? Put that you're bisexual, so you can qualify for LGBT programs. What are they gonna do, make you suck someone off on the spot?

I'm someone who is Laotian, and my parents were immigrants, so I grew up in a very low income area, and come from a very underprivileged background. There are no programs out there for me, with the exception of the LGBT program. I actually identify as gay, so I'm not lying, but I sincerely don't think that I would have my BB offer today without these diversity programs. But I find it unfair for my peers who grew up struggling, but are completely disregarded by banks because they're Asian or White. Banks don't have programs for poor people, so I think we should abuse the f out of these diversity programs as much as we can.

Comments (146)

Funniest
Apr 28, 2020

You've been removed from consideration for the MD position in light of recently discovered irregularities in your personal history

*Surprised Pocahontas face*

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Apr 28, 2020

As unfortunate as it is, everybody has to play the cards we're dealt...If I were eligible for the diversity programs, I'd abuse them as well...

"Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Apr 28, 2020

I think that you're voicing many of the same concerns that many have about affirmative action and similar practices.

I'll probably get MS for this, but at the end of the day, it's the poor and White/Asian/non-URM/women who get shafted by these programs so that an African American who went to Philips Exeter can get a boost on his application.

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  • Intern in IB - Gen
Apr 30, 2020

The same african american got a boost getting into his target school and will get a boost again when applying for MBA

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Apr 30, 2020

Couldn't agree more. Sure wish I was a poor black woman instead of a poor white man.

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 30, 2020

While those concerns are valid, you also cannot leave out the fact that we were historically left out of the system. Like less than 2 generations ago we still had a segregated south dude. Imagine not being able to eat at the pizza place down the street because of the fucking melanin that your body produces? Or that your buddies invite you out for drinks but then you're like "oh man sorry I can't make it tonight guys... I'm black"... although that wouldn't even happen cause you wouldn't work at the same places. Oh and your grandparents telling you stories about slavery...

Now, I agree that in the present these inequalities are much less existent, but the consequences of some industries being essentially all-white and all-male (ie. finance, VC) makes these industries harder to break into as a minority. Maybe not so much for rich minorities that are used to being around white people, but for me (first-generation immigrant) it was tough adapting to being around a bunch of rich white people.

And yet, I killed my internship and performed better than ivy league kids, kids who's parents were PE partners, etc. Just wanted to point that out because yes, these programs in many cases give hard working people like me access to opportunities that change our lives AND also go both ways - provide the bank with talent. It's not like you're just gonna automatically get a return offer either, I think a lot of people miss this.

Life isn't fair and never will be but to correct historical injustices I think it's worth doing something that is "unjust" that now has a noble purpose. The real question is when do you end these programs, that is to say, when and how will we determine that society is balanced enough that we don't need to give easy access to opportunities to anyone anymore? That's the end state, and honestly I don't know if we'll ever get there. It's utopian, almost.

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  • Prospect in IB - Gen
Apr 30, 2020

"To correct historical injustices I think it's worth doing something that is "unjust" "

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  • Research Analyst in PE - Other
May 4, 2020

People who never were slaves going head to head with people who never had slaves.....smh

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  • Intern in IB - Ind
Apr 28, 2020

It's not really "abuse" if it's true.

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Apr 28, 2020

This advice is more general in nature and does not apply to the Covid climate. Fortunately, I will never know what recruiting out of college in a recession is like.

If you are in this boat go get a T15 MBA and you will be fine. If you are good enough to have even a chance at IB you should be able to get some other kind of job and be able to crush GMAT and apply down the line. Saying this as an Indian guy with an unimpressive GPA, median GMAT for the school I am attending, and an admit to an M7 school. Associate roles at the MBA level are a dime a dozen

The banks should still be recruiting for MO and BO roles at your school. Or you can go do an FLDP, or you can go Big 4. TFA, Fulbright, Peace Corps. So many cool things you can do while you are young. Its not IB or your career is over before it began.

Apr 28, 2020

yeah as an immigrant from the middle class who could have abused these types of programs, for some reason in college I was too proud and I chose not to thinking that it would be hard on my ego for someone to one day tell me I didn't deserve the things I had - and to know deep down they could be right. Ended up going to a non-target state school and clawing my way into a boutique PE firm then a BB CRE investments position. But I definitely saw a lot of middle income minority kids like me go into ALPFA who went straight from a non-target UG to IB at Goldman, some are now even associates at firms like KKR or Blackstone. It's bizarre, perhaps affirmative action should benefit people of lower incomes rather than certain races - it would still end up benefitting Latinos and black people disproportionately but it'd be more fair to everyone else and serve its intended purpose better.

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Apr 29, 2020

So essentially your pride cost you a better position. Your classmates' shamelessness led them into more prestige and higher pay. But hey, at least you can say that you were honest or something, right?

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May 1, 2020

yup, exactly lmao.

Apr 28, 2020

Like OP, I think candidates from low income backgrounds / first generation college students can have a much harder road to IB and deserve these programs even more than the ethnically diverse. I'm a first gen white male from lower/middle class and a very average public HS (20% military, 70% junior college, 10% 4-year college). I had no clue what IB was coming into college, had zero family connections, and this certainly set me back since IB recruiting starts sophomore year. Luckily I was able to make it work and get a BB gig, but this group faces tremendous setbacks despite being "non-diversity". First gen/low income typically go to non-targets for affordability reasons, they typically have no advance knowledge of IB or family connections thus making navigating an extremely accelerating recruiting process very difficult. I'm increasingly puzzled as I see high schoolers on this site asking for the best schools to go to GS and KKR... from my background, I had no knoweldge of careers within business and cannot possible be expected to keep up with kids like this.

Why do these students go unassisted in recruiting while (sorry to single you out ladies, just an example) a rich white girl from a private high school has access to an accelerated high-conversion-rate "diversity" program? Same goes for rich minorities. Yes, imlicit bias among interviewers does exist and can affect hiring decisions (i.e. why these programs exist) but this issue seems small compared to the numerous setbacks of low income/first gen.

I'm not salty. I'm not using my background as an excuse to underachieve my blue blooded peers. I made my way to a BB IB offer. But I'm a minority among this group and want to speak for the tough road it can be. Not every Straight White Male is an Ivy legacy Deerfield alum with Wall St. connects.

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  • Intern in Other
Apr 28, 2020

Financial firms should create more first-generation college student programs and consider 1st Gen as diversity. Low-income can also be a separate program to learn more about the hustle and drive in that perspective. I think MLT and SEO does a fascinating job in bringing minorities in but with little to no effect on first gens.

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Most Helpful
Apr 28, 2020

Dont say that too loudly or you'll be called racist, bigoted, xenophobic, along with a laundry list of other labels.

The simple fact is this. diversity/quotas/affirmative action only care about one thing and that is your physical traits (skin color, gender, sex) which is inherently a sexist/racist ideal to seperate people on the basis of their physical traits. It doesnt matter if you're a white girl who went to Harvard who's dad is an MD at Goldman. As long as she is a girl, she will be put ahead of a impoverished Vietnamese first generation male from the projects of LA. Diversity/quotas/affirmative action fails to recognize that there are white/asian males who indeed come from low income houses, 1st gen immigrants, fucked up family history. It sad, stupid, and inherently fucked up.

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Controversial
  • Investment Manager in HF - Macro
Apr 28, 2020

This just isn't true and it frustrates me to see people, who have little to no experience on this topic and how it is implemented, make statements (so confidently) as you are. I understand this website is mostly college students and junior employees but it is really starting to go downhill (or I'm starting to get old). You are entitled to your opinion but just know this is not how the programs work.

It is sad how often people just disregard all the research, literature, information from firms themselves and even other posts in this website to keep posting their opinion (which is often contradicted by facts).

I realize I should just stop posting, and I probably will, but on what info are you making these statements? Are you a part of diversity recruiting? Are you a leader at these firms? I won't disagree that these programs can be (and are) poorly implemented, and that some programs are more for show than not, but your blanket statements don't make sense to me.

I understand that you will just point back to me and say I haven't provided facts and that anyone online can make up anything and that's fine. I'm not going to go through the whole process of trying to explain this again. I just ask that you take the time to try and understand this (truly understand it) rather than fit things to your narrative.

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  • Analyst 1 in IB - Ind
Apr 29, 2020

I think you falsely underestimate what literature people do and don't read about these programs and the fact that current college students and junior analysts know "how these programs work" far better than you do... How often do you peruse LinkedIn and see all the "incoming" analysts and summer analysts that go to these diversity programs or go to college recruiting events with BB/EBs? If this is a regular occurrence for you and you have the facts to back it up, I'll stand corrected. Otherwise, What evidence do you have that this is not how these programs work?

I go to a top LAC non-target which sends 10-12 each year to IB. out of those, probably 5-6 are diversity. In my class year, guess how many of the diversity candidates have double the income I do and more "privilege"? all of them. There are programs like Girls Who Invest which don't target first-gen, low-income females of color. They literally funnel upper-middle class women every year to top internships. Of course you can say "don't make blanket statements" or some other BS that misses the point, but the reality is that this is fucked up and it does happen. For every low-income African American diversity candidate there absolutely is a rich, Phillips Exeter alum who just happens to black, yet is a diversity candidate. Its ironic too that people like you don't call out the BS when it happens - this is the very antithesis of socially just practices Bc it takes away an opportunity from a a true underserved URM.

like others have said, I'm not salty - I made it fine and others who work hard will absolutely too Bc that's the most important thing. But what won't slide is ignorance and virtue signaling from people who have no skin in this game, especially when providing no evidence other than a gut feeling. that's pretty pathetic.

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Apr 29, 2020

lmao homie I'm a diversity recruit and I can tell you that all your 'research' is just a bunch of fictitious garbage, social science is horrifically arbitrary and biased (consider that over 90% of psychologists vote democrat and lean liberal). This is all an HR ploy that if you can take advantage of, you should. The incentive is great, but stop trying to virtue signal, it's kind of cringey.

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  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Apr 30, 2020

You're not gonna get through to them. This site has seriously gone down hill over the years - it's filled with mainly angry high school and college kids with little self awareness

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Apr 28, 2020

To those of you who've seen people accepted into diversity programs, what were their GPAs? Or was it first come first serve?

Apr 28, 2020

Know an URM who had a 3.1 from Target. Citi IB with return.

  • Intern in IB - Ind
Apr 28, 2020

Wow, seriously? That just isn't right. The bar is that much lower?

  • Prospect in IB - Gen
Apr 28, 2020

I got offers through diversity programs... and I would like to think I'm competitive with the regular recruiting process as are the other minorities from my school who recruited diversity with me. 3.9+ GPA, ECs.

I definitely know some people who probably couldn't have gotten as good an offer if they were, say, a white male, but for the most part I think diversity hires are pretty qualified too

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Apr 28, 2020

Glad to hear their not just taking anybody to fil a quoata. +1

  • Intern in IB - Gen
Apr 29, 2020

Yeah I agree diversity recruits are still qualified. It's just that hundreds of qualified if not more qualified non-diversity candidates (poor/middle class white/Asian male without family connection) get no offers or worse offers because there are so many reserved spots rich international or boarding school graduate diversity qualifying candidates.

Not saying you have to eliminate diversity recruiting, because it definitely serves an important purpose. But companies have to revise it to really make it what it should be about (helping kids who didn't have so many opportunities growing up). But then again, of course companies don't actually care about those kids and they just want a number to publicize for marketing purposes, so this will never happen, so whatever

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 29, 2020

I knew some female friends that went through Barclays Sophomore Springboard and didn't get asked a single technical...

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  • Intern in IB - Ind
Apr 29, 2020

That's honestly hilarious - know a minority kid who did the same program and they asked him paper LBOs etc.

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  • Associate 1 in PE - LBOs
Apr 29, 2020

I go to a large, well-known state school. The administration knows these programs inside and out because it is the easiest way to get kids into IB. Can confirm through multiple sources that BAML didn't ask female candidates technicals during several interview cycles from 2015 to 2017.

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  • Associate 1 in PE - LBOs
Apr 29, 2020

Confirmed for BAML program as well.

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Apr 29, 2020

A girl a few of my coworkers chatted with got a FT offer from Goldman, said she didn't get asked a single technical question either. Her prior internship wasn't even in IB

Array
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Apr 29, 2020

The female not getting asked technicals is BS. I'm not upset about banks putting in programs but it should at least be for people who are interested in finance long term.

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Apr 29, 2020

Diversity guy here. Yeah the system is definitely broken, but I had a 3.8 by graduation and had finance internships from my freshman summer so I wasn't really a quota-filler. This used to make me worried that I didn't deserve it, but then I got a first round through networking at two EBs and I realized that I'm definitely capable enough.

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  • Intern in AM - Other
Apr 29, 2020

One girl from my school faked being bi and got into a top BB diversity program

Apr 29, 2020

I guess if I walked in with a hearing aid I'd get an offer on the spot

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  • Prospect in IB - Gen
May 23, 2020

I have a 4.0 got into seo and girls who invest.

Apr 28, 2020

I def dislike rich minorities getting these benefits lol. My dad had a friend in college who got into a top 4 law school with average stats because his last name was sanchez or something. The dude was from a very wealthy family from Spain.

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  • Analyst 1 in IB - Ind
Apr 29, 2020

White women from Long Island bring diversity is actually a massive stain on any initiative these firms want to try. Sorry First generation Philippino male, step aside for Becky

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Apr 29, 2020

This thread again....

If it makes you feel any better OP, I stopped answering the diversity questions at the end of applications. You know what happened? I received emails for phone interviews, etc.

Upper middle class minority female....

Greed is Good!

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May 1, 2020

So you submitted an application and immediately got emails for phone interviews??? Hmm that's kinda fishy, because as a 1-st generation Non-Diversity Male who's parents were immigrants, per bank I had to send at least 10-15 networking emails, have 3-4 positive interactions, and even fly out to NYC multiple times on my own dollar (I worked a minimum wage job on-campus while maintaining a 3.80+) to grab coffee just to receive 1st round phone interviews.

Congrats though, it must be nice to just have interviews thrown at you on a silver platter since your name clearly identified you as a woman. It also must be nice to be "upper-middle class", some of us non-diverse people can't relate to you on that... Enjoy the 6-figure paycheck you "earned" by knowing how to walk someone through the 3 financial statements, I'm truly envious of it.

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
May 4, 2020

Cry her a river buddy. No one asked for your sob story. You don't like your circumstance compared to hers? Go out and change it for yourself.

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May 6, 2020

I don't make 6 figures and to be fair my parents worked hard. They both came from nothing. My parents didn't know anything about finance, so I had to work for everything. I didn't apply to diversity programs because it's all BS. I have a very "white" name and unfortunately name biases exists. It's why I don't mark my race at the end of applications. All I can tell you all is don't mark your race on applications. Surprise them at the Interview. Good Luck!

Greed is Good!

  • Prospect in IB - Gen
May 23, 2020

why so rude

  • Intern in S&T - Equities
Apr 29, 2020

I think all the comments following the OP miss the point. In order to make an argument for a program tailored to low-income applicants, they attack other programs. The truth is no one has any idea of the background of all these "rich" minorities and women. You're putting them in a box. Perhaps they do bring a lot of diversity that previously wasn't there in firms.

Personally, I look and sound like a "Becky" but I've lived all over the world and in all different living standards ($20/night hotels with my family of five for years at a time). There's a lot more to me than a "Becky". You don't need to drag others down to make the point that there should be a low-income program as well. Don't lump all successful applicants in together.

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Apr 29, 2020

uh sorry but white women are not a minority. I grew up in poverty and immigrated to the US at age 10 and was even homeless at one point. Our struggles are NOT comparable, you can try to justify it but just know that it's pure coping.

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  • Intern in S&T - Equities
Apr 29, 2020

I didn't say white women were a minority...? Other posts discuss women and minorities so commenting on that.

I didn't say our experiences/struggles are comparable. I have no idea who you are. I'm sure our lives have been very different.

I also don't understand this "coping" thing. Some weird American tribalism thing if I had to guess.

By writing this post you're proving my point. You're putting me in a box when you don't know anything about me. I am not representative of everyone in my race and gender. You are not representative of everyone in your race and gender. Therefore, diversity can be present in these programmes organised by recruiters even if everyone thinks that they are only superficial.

Some attempt at diversity is better than nothing. I'm sorry if the comment offended you.

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  • Analyst 2 in IB - Ind
Apr 29, 2020

I worked at a very well known Asset Manager ($500bn+ AUM) for a few years out of college. During my second year when I was asked to help with recruiting, my boss pulled me in the back room before we started looking at resumes and told me that it's coming from the top that we cannot hire white analysts anymore. Zero white kids. A good amount of them were great, but we ended up having to "strongly encourage" about 1/3rd of the class that year to look for jobs elsewhere after a few months when it became clear they couldn't do the job - which almost never happens. What happened to merit based hiring?

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Apr 29, 2020

That sucks. I do wish everything was merit based, but that's not the world we live in.

Greed is Good!

  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 29, 2020
Analyst 2 in IB - Ind:

During my second year when I was asked to help with recruiting, my boss pulled me in the back room before we started looking at resumes and told me that it's coming from the top that we cannot hire white analysts anymore. Zero white kids,

Highly doubt this. That's illegal.

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  • Analyst 2 in IB - Ind
May 1, 2020

Thanks for weighing in Mr. Intern, it cannot possibly be true that an off-the-record conversation in the back room suggested something shady to boost our diversity rankings. Financial firms never do anything unethical!

I understand people are skeptical because it is ridiculous, but it is 100% true. Shoot me. Work a day in the real world before you weigh in calling BS. Throw all the MS you want, I obviously paraphrased what was a very long discussion and I'd give more detail but it would out me. It happened.

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  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Apr 30, 2020

This sounds super fake

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May 1, 2020

Inaccurate and homosexual

I'm a fun guy. Obviously I love the game of basketball. I mean there's more questions you have to ask me in order for me to tell you about myself. I'm not just gonna give you a whole spill... I mean, I don't even know where you're sitting at

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  • Associate 2 in CorpDev
Apr 29, 2020

Wise man says: " the secret to success is crime! "

  • Intern in S&T - Comm
Apr 29, 2020

The diversity hires need to be held to the same standard as everyone else. The pipeline/fast track is okay as long as the expectations for everyone remain the same. I often steer the conversation to technicals and they'll ask me some basic accounting. Period. Nothing advanced, no valuation for an IB gig?! I realize very quickly that they would probably hire me because I am an asian female and not because I actually deserve it.
For instance if they expect 'white dudes' to bring in a 3.9+ with excellent modeling abilities, the rest of us should be offering something comparable. And not just our diVeRse PerSpeCtiVe lol.
The ultimate goal was to tone down the 'bro culture'. A situation where people of color/women/others who were objectively better were passed upon would be blatantly wrong. But then a situation where a 'privileged group' say a white male was cut despite being the best would also be blatantly wrong. They need a more equitable approach in the long run because this system is designed to fail.

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Apr 29, 2020

I feel that the topic of diversity programs is very nuanced and complex, but I do think there is merit in supporting candidates who are low-income/first gen. As you progress in your careers, it would be a worthy effort to raise this with your institution and personally support those who may be overlooked by the current system. This was always a professional priority for me, and it's been very rewarding watching kids I mentored thrive and move up socioeconomically (at least I hope I had something to do with it!) Such success makes a difference not just for them, but for their families, also.

There is a lot to be said about the real advantage of social capital. When you don't have the "right" grooming, exposure, awareness and natural cachet that comes from being raised in the "right" environment, gunning for opportunities of prestige - especially when in a very image-conscious, relationship-focused bubble like finance - becomes an extraordinarily hard endeavor.

Do wealthy URM candidates still face a myriad of systemic challenges? Of course! Not all things go away just because you're rich and connected. But when I was a young candidate, as a personal example, I consistently found myself having to build my own bridges - on my own - across chasms of problems to achieve things that their backgrounds naturally afforded them. At one point, I was in a diversity program in which it felt like everyone's dad was an MD at the firm, everyone had a house at Martha's Vineyard, and everyone went to an expensive private school...meanwhile, I was one generation away from living in a hut in the jungle (lol!)

Things might feel horribly unfair now, but don't ever give up!

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  • Prospect in Other
Apr 29, 2020

Perhaps the primary effect is to ensure that the sons and daughters of IB executives, as well as their frat brothers, can comfortably cruise into positions at firms while ensuring that most kids from their demographic groups simply cannot be hired due to not meeting diveristy requirements. A significant portion of the non-diveristy slots are taken by those with connections. That's also the story of Ivy League admissions. As always, the elites win, and everyone else is screwed.

In other words: I think the diveristy programs are messed up, for many reasons that others in this thread have persuasively identified. (Jason Riley at WSJ writes eloquently on these issues.) But remember, perhaps the most egregious injustice banks are committing is allowing (really, celebrating) nepotism. I go to HYP, and it's shocking how open firms are about hiring the kids of their employees. It's such an unbelievably bad look--and it's also a choice. It's really crushing if you care about meritocracy as a principle....

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Apr 29, 2020

yep. there's a self selection bias for sure for people that get in those programs and people overlook and don't notice this. nothing you can really do about it to combat but network hard. can't replace hard work most times so push hard.

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Apr 29, 2020

If you did not apply for a diversity sophomore internship, do you still have a chance when applying for a normal junior one?

May 1, 2020

Yes, definitely 100%

  • Intern in IB - Gen
Apr 29, 2020

Very true. Everyone I know at my school and my business frat who got an offer through diversity recruiting were full tuition paying internationals or went to some boarding/private catholic school and come from an at the very least well off background. Diversity programs honestly aren't even looking for hispanic/black who grew up with challenges. They WANT minority kids who grew up accustomed to their Caucasian, private school, Ivy league culture who wear Patagonia every day.

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Apr 30, 2020

pungent talk

  • Intern in IB - Ind
Apr 30, 2020

Diversity kids are still asked the same technicals lol, the process is flawed but no need to make stuff up

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Apr 30, 2020

I went through diversity recruiting with a bank and never got asked a single technical. got the offer. I don't know if this is the case for everyone, it may have been because my resume is pretty stacked (not to toot my own horn) so they know I know my shit.

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  • Intern in IB - Ind
May 1, 2020

if ur res is stacked shouldnt they ask more? also was this top, mid, or lower bb?

  • Intern in Other
May 1, 2020

I got multiple sophomore offers, and while you are right that some banks clearly don't hold sophomores to the same standard as juniors, others clearly do. I vividly remember that one diversity superday I went to was so bad that another candidate admitted to googling "What is investment banking?" in the Uber on the way there. She didn't get the offer, but still. The firm I ended up at sent sophomores to junior superdays with junior candidates and would only hire you if you got the job through the same process as everyone else. I got the offer because I correctly answered the technicals that juniors sitting next to me missed, and that's how it should be. Nobody went easy on me, and I appreciated it immensely. Aside from the fact that it was the "best" offer I got, being held to the same standard was part of the reason I took it. I worked just as hard as everyone else and don't want to be looked down upon amongst my own peers. While I benefitted from being able to enter IB a year earlier and gain extremely valuable experience, I was also often disadvantaged by the outside perception that I don't deserve my offer. For a year in college, I can remember countless comments like "You just got it because you're _____" or "lol but it isn't like you really deserved it." Come next recruiting cycle, I kicked ass, and a lot of those people got absolutely nothing. It wasn't because I don't look like them. I'm not sure people here would find that "exploiting diversity programs" would allow them to get a top offer with any greater ease, and if they found their way into "lesser" offers easily, that also comes with the idea that they don't deserve to be there.

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
May 1, 2020

Elizabeth Warren would be proud of this post

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May 2, 2020

I went to a very exclusive business school in Europe, and I applied for internships/ jobs and wasn't even called in for interviews, then a friend who worked in one of the companies told me it was because I was: non native, and a woman. And my university had a diversity program, but only a couple of girls would get selected (low 60%, I had a 87%) and their fathers knew MDs at those companies.
Led me to be immensely frustrated and negative the whole time I was there. I left the country soon after. Also one of the female partners rejected my application for a lunch, saying there were no places, whereas invites went out to the white men a week later, I was the only non native female to apply. So hey,my recommendation: abuse the program if you can!

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
May 2, 2020

Okay so no one's really discussed it, but thoughts on lying that you're bisexual?

May 3, 2020
Intern in IB-M&A:

Okay so no one's really discussed it, but thoughts on lying that you're bisexual?

I wouldn't but I am not a fan of lying in general. You have to go to this place every day after.

  • Intern in IB - Ind
May 3, 2020

really bad idea unless you're cool with faking it for the rest of your life

May 3, 2020

If you're going to lie about anything lie about your race. They literally don't check it, and plenty of white people claim that they're 12.5% or 25% Hispanic / Black despite never having faced discrimination their entire life.

On applications it clearly says "regardless of race, or ethnicity". Let's be honest, these banks don't actually give a shit about helping underprivileged candidates, they just want positive PR associated with racial quotas. If they actually cared about helping under-represented people they'd donate all the money they use on promoting diversity to actually developing schools and teacher wages on the South Side of Chicago. I doubt giving a minority student that went to Exeter / Andover a job is actually providing diversity of thought to the workplace.

With that being said, I am an Asian / East Asian candidate who easily could have gotten away with lying about race / sexuality. I chose not to because it was a matter of integrity, and I strongly believed that I could have gotten an offer over any diverse candidate that went to HYPSW despite my demographic. If you're willing to bend the rules and your integrity, go right ahead, no one can stop you from self-identifying as Hispanic or Black.

If you truly believe that you were dis-privileged while growing up, may as well as bend the rules to help you advance your career, nothing wrong with that in my book.

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May 4, 2020

Really sad that people would offer this advice and that others might heed it. If you think that these programs give an unfair advantage to groups that have been marginalized and essentially barred from high finance historically, you need to get out of your bubble and meet more people to understand their lived experiences. Everyone should use the resources that are available to them, but abusing diversity programs is pretty depraved.

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May 8, 2020

Don't know why this got down voted- I believe people may be down voting because they simply do not understand the experiences of others. I completely agree with your comment.

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May 4, 2020

If you read the comments above it's pretty clear that the straight white dude that summers in the Hamptons has not room to be complaining. However, the people on this forum that are the children of immigrants have every right to try and take advantage of these programs. Most immigrants kids have extremely high expectations in-order to justify the sacrifices their parents make, and basically giving 12% of candidates handouts to 75% of jobs basically screws the non-HYPSW that doesn't come from money over.

The rich white dude who'd dad is a partner at GS / BX is going to get his job regardless of diversity recruiting. Thankfully I was able to break in given my qualifications and background, but if someone was on the border to slipping through the cracks, particularly an Asian Candidate who still faced discrimination growing up but wasn't able to snag a 4.0 GPA / 36 ACT / 2400 SAT, I wouldn't blame them one bit for stretching the truth in order to take advantage of diversity recruiting.

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
May 4, 2020

OH PLEASE.

Stop your bitching, child. If you aren't good enough to make it, don't blame the minority programs that help others get in. If you have to blame someone other than yourself, you probably never had the chops to make it in the first place.

Not to mention, your argument is clearly misconstrued - "diversity" hires (black, women are less than 10-20% of the actual SA/FT hires in most BB IB programs. Look at any analyst group on LinkedIn - or better yet, ask HR directly - and you can confirm this. The bigger issue - and one you clearly seem to be avoiding - is how nepotism gets people roles... in my experience there are much, much more of that going on than specifically diversity. The argument of the rich black or the rich immigrant is a huge red herring to your argument - they do exist, I'll give you that, but it's fallacious to assume that this represents more than a fraction of them.

You have to realize that it is possible to add opportunity for marginalized groups without simultaneously detracting opportunity for other groups. In other words, you aren't losing your IB opportunity because of someone else. Just find a way to stand out some other way. Sheesh.

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  • Business School in PE - LBOs
May 4, 2020

edit old post was probably too specific.

I've seen examples of hiring, promotion, extra training (e.g. firm paid one-on-one modeling training), and pay decisions made where white women are given the advantage vs 1st/2nd gen non white immigrants. Explicitly citing demographics as the reason in internal discussions (verbal).

Since resources are scarce, giving a resource to one party necessarily means taking it away from another.

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May 5, 2020

As I already mentioned in a previous comment, I already started my career in a BB bank out of a semi-target state school, so I actually was able to break in on merit alone and was also a top-bucket analyst every year of my analyst stint.

Also because you clearly didn't hear, Goldman / JPM / Citi / Evercore / Barclays have literally implemented a 50% gender quota. The fact that banks are trying to implement a 50% gender quota along with URM quotas in such a short period of time (diversity recruiting basically started in 2015) ABSOLUTELY screws over the majority of Asian / 1st generation candidates. Most people who were raised by immigrants weren't brought up on the "Frat Bro Culture" and therefore don't quality for the "fit" bucket either.

The main people who benefit from these initiatives are White Woman and URM that went to Exeter. Not to mention the white kids who claim that they're 1/4 Black or Hispanic when they are white as snow and only speak 1 language. When all you SJW Liberals are willing to have a civilized conversation without calling people with differing views "bigots / racists / xenophobes" we can then begin to address the concept of Equal Opportunity without pursuing Equal Results

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
May 5, 2020

No disrespect was intended bruv, so please, don't get your panties in a twist calling a stranger a "liberal SJW" and assume I'm calling you racist. Relax and consider your own comment about civil conversation. Most of my comment was more of an open letter to the energy of blatant ignorance that I've seen in this thread.

I mostly agree on the woman part. Wealthy white women have it pretty easy in life, no doubt. But this does not conflict with my argument that the "wealthy URM abusing these programs" concept is a complete straw man. This is not the majority case, as much as you may believe from an outsiders perspective.

There is also no good way to filter for income background. I agree that this disadvantages low income Asian and white Americans. But this is not the point. Until something significantly changes, racial diversity will be used as a proxy for income diversity in this country because that's how this socioeconomic system was set up. While this system is imperfect, AS A WHOLE, it works better than any alternative at giving equal access opportunity.

Chill.

  • Incoming Analyst in PE - LBOs
May 4, 2020

The issue of diversity programs is incredibly complex and rooted in good intentions. I don't think we would see nearly as many complaints about them if they helped funnel mostly underprivileged students who didn't grow up in the Wall Street pipeline into entry level roles.

Unfortunately, people only see the abuse in the system when some vaguely Hispanic kid from Miami whose parents clear $1mm+ a year get the internship instead of themselves.

For example, at my school, 2 kids in the business program both got into an MBB interview process because for being "Spanish" and applying though the MBBs diversity program that gave them an interview for a summer program with a fast tracked offer. Both justified it to themselves because of a great-grandparent that came to the US from Spain. MBB never even remotely looked into it. As long as they clicked the correct button on their application, it was an URM in the eyes of HR. Neither spoke Spanish. One got an offer...

I'm sure every undergraduate poster on WSO knows someone who did this, thus tainting this forum's view on these programs. If I were some Asian/Indian/white kid who grinded my dick off for 4 yrs in HS and 4 yrs in college just to watch someone abuse the system and get an offer when I didn't get one, I'd be pretty salty too. The system is so full of abuse (this post literally calls for it) and hence people hate it.

May 5, 2020

The real legends of diversity recruiting are the people who claim to be Hispanic via being descendants of people from Spain / Italy. For those of you who don't know, SPANIARDS LITERALLY INVENTED MODERN SLAVERY AND THE TRIANGULAR SLAVE TRADE.

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May 5, 2020

Household income should be a factor in diversity recruiting.

  • Associate 2 in Acct - Other
May 5, 2020

I find it strange that household income and whether or not you're a first gen college student aren't the major factors in recruiting.

Perhaps I'm biased in this regard, though. Coming from a single parent household who's mother has worked a checkout her whole life, I don't know if family income makes a difference or not. I've worked my way to a 4.0 and am slowly getting to where I want to go, but I can't say how much easier studies and job applications would be (if at all) coming from a more wealthy family.

May 5, 2020

I will add though, one thing to consider is that representation is important. It can be pretty intimidating as an URM to enter an information session that is dominated by white people. Even if some of the African Americans hired by a bank come from privileged backgrounds, they still help with representation. When a URM walks into an info session and see bankers that are also URM, they think "hey if he can do it, so can I".

As an URM, I love seeing my race on TV shows and movies...the representation really helps with self-confidence.

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May 5, 2020

Just a horrific and racist argument. Should we enact a diversity system for Asian and Whites in the NBA & NFL? Should we enact a diversity program for Asians to be fast tracked into hip-hop music labels.

Stop separating on the basis of skin color, and start evaluating on the basis of merit. I guarantee in the long run we will see positive results.

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May 6, 2020
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