It seems to me that Washington and Lee is a hidden gem for Investment banking. According to their career survey, 43 out of 240 grads went into investment banking!!!! Even Wharton/Harvard cant boast percentages that high! What are your opinions on this? Is it even considered a target school?
http://www.wlu.edu/Documents/career-development-center/annual-reports/2…
Best undergraduate schools for investment banking
The best undergraduate schools for investment banking have the largest representation at bulge brackets and other notable banks.
The top ten list has been the same for some time. Here are the traditional target schools. These are the best undergraduate schools for investment banking.
Washington and Lee Undergraduate Business School
Washington and lee business school are 111th for overall distribution of undergraduates at bulge bracket banks. But Washington and Lee does better in the ranking of distribution at other notable banks. They are ranked 56th.
Bulge brackets with largest presence
Other banks with largest presence
from certified user @Generals2"
If question is whether W&L places better into IB than Harvard or Wharton, don't think this is a fair comparison. Think very top finance candidates from those 2 have much better shots at bypassing IB / going straight to buyside
If question is whether there are plenty of FO IB jobs for W&L students, answer is yes. Think 30-40 / year is particularly good in context of overall class of 500 or so
Interested in more recruiting data?
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W&L has about 500 students per class and it says information not available for only 37 graduates. This must be a subset of students in that survey
Is IB all-encompassing and does it include back office functions etc?
OMG IM GONNA GO TO WASHINGTON AND LEE OVER WHARTON/HARVARD NOW. ARE THERE ANY WHARTONITES WHO'D LIKE TO TRASNFER WITH ME???//
I've been a lurker for a while, but I'm a W&L student now so I made an account to provide some clarity here.
In terms of summer analyst positions at this point in the year, JPM has offered 4 for IBD, 1 ST, 1 Public Finance, DB has offered 5 for IBD and is also interviewing for commercial real estate in NY. Wells Fargo has offered 4 or 5 for IBD. GS at this point has offered 1 for IBD, but hasn't started official recruitment yet for IBD. I think they have also offered 1 or 2 spots for ST. STRH offered 4 or 5 for IBD.
Others that are currently recruiting or will later this school year include MS, GS IBD, BAML (super day in NY for IBD and Lev Fin in Charlotte), Lincoln International, Harris Williams, Citi Group (ST only).
Those are all I can think of right now, but I'm sure there are more. The point is there are definitively some opportunities to get into IBD or ST at BBs in NY with also some fall backs at other firms.
Obviously OP is a retard/can't do math. Excluding the fact that the survey is definitely misleading as a result of it's "IB" categorization and the fact that the survey somehow only includes a portion of its class:
Wharton IBD Placement: 24.8% (source: http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/WHA_2013cp.pdf)
W&L = 43/240 = ???
You do the math kiddos.
Anyone figure this one out yet?
Hold on, let me get my TI-89
20 IB spots already offered on December 1 at W&L? I'm calling BS on this. I don't know much about the school except that it is just barely a top 20 LAC that is not particularly well known. I don't know anyone at my firm that is from W&L (and I'm at one of the aforementioned places). It may have good representation relative to its size and caliber, but those numbers seem significantly inflated to say the least. Admittedly am not basing this off of much and it could be the hidden diamond of the mid-Atlantic, I just don't see it.
The only people I've met that were from Washington and Lee (3 to be exact) were all in the back office.
I didn't know W&L existed 5 minutes ago.
I have many friends at top LACs like W&L who have gotten offers for FO positions in the past. For non/semi-target schools, they're well connected. If W&L's numbers were true it wouldn't surprise me.
This is getting weird.
What are you talking about? What's weird.
People are blowing this out of proportion. No one's saying "Go to W&L instead of Wharton-esque schools" or that the number of students who supposedly are in finance there are only in FO positions, I think it's obvious not everyone there is IB but I also bet a substantial number are. W&L is a good, small school, with a decent finance program and alum network and pretty selective (acceptance rate ~18%), too. It's number's really don't suprise me and it's not odd to say that BB would hire from there.
Similar to RodneyDangerfield, I am connected to W&L so wanted to weigh in
I am a W&L grad (~5 years out) and can vouch for the school's strong placement in IB
In my class, I estimate 30-40 went into FO IB roles, don't know exact count
I worked for JPM/GS/MS (concealing for identity) When I was there, JPM had most, them GS, then MS). I currently work for a large PE firm, and most of my classmates who worked in IB are in PE or bschool
I believe W&L punches above its weight mainly BC of its very tight alumni network. The school itself has an excellent balance between academics and social life, so can help with "fit" component of interviews. Would also point out that the while W&L is a liberal arts school, it also has an undergrad business school, so helps with interview prep.
BB positions are most sought after (they come through alumni network via-W&L grads who work for respective banks; requires a lot of the same back and forth with HR that I see on this board), but think the MM IB representation is helped by fact that founders of Harris Williams and Lincoln International were both founded by W&L grads
I had a great experience at W&L and think most other alumni would share the same. There will always be people who are surprised by the finance employment stats - this overrepresentation is documented in WSO in other instances if you search for it
Solid postcounts on all the Washington & Lee boosters in this thread
Wharton/Harvard, Ivy, Ivy-like, are the clear choice for IBD recruiting. Wharton may only send 24% of grads into banking, but that's because banks can only get 24% of Wharton students. I've have friends that have gone to W&L, but they agree that Ivies provide the easiest path to IBD gigs.
Also, props to W&L on their quality Annual Report. Didn't even put a logo on that thing, but glad to see Career Services there knows how to use a table.
Yep, I have been following site for 4 years or so, but this is my first post, as it is regarding something close to me and I do not want misinformation spread
Rememberthetitans, would you mind explaining why number of posts is relevant? Do you think greater number adds more credibility?
Re whether W&L is the BEST undergrad school for IB (ie the subject of the thread), not sure how one could determine this and don't think W&L would win
If question is whether W&L places better into IB than Harvard or Wharton, don't think this is a fair comparison. Think very top finance candidates from those 2 have much better shots at bypassing IB / going straight to buyside
If question is whether there are plenty of FO IB jobs for W&L students, answer is yes. Think 30-40 / year is particularly good in context of overall class of 500 or so
Well, I certainly do.
Read the job report. The only W&L person I know worked at Wells (which made sense, Southern school and all), and the "banking" numbers could easily include PWM. Hadn't heard of the school before.
IMO, if your career services can't be bothered to even put your fucking logo on the page, sorry, but I'm not being convinced that it cares to distinguish between different divisions at Goldman Sachs.
I don't know anyone from W&L at WF, but remember when I went through IB recruiting I met with Wachovia, so would assume there is some carry over. For context on the banks that came to campus, when I went through IB summer process, interviewed with Wachovia, Merrill, DB, Lehman, JPM, GS, MS and a few others
The W&L report lacks detail, but LBJs hair, my guess is that PWM would be in the non-IB category
Why are logos meaningful? I don't see a logo on the above Wharton report. You gonna throw this out one too?
Look, this is getting petty for me. If anyone would like to find out more about the school and IB process, PM me
Holy sht this is an all out, shameless propaganda thread. Washington and Lee is in fact a great school but I am in shock at the utter bullsht that has been written here.
If you are in high school and deciding on colleges/unis, and are qualified for wharton, you should be smart enough to know that w&l, while a good school that may place some students into IBD, is a semi-target AT BEST and does NOT place 5 students in FO at 6 or 7 BBs each on a consistent basis.
Mods, take this down? Don't want WSO to become an avenue for stupid Career Services reps to spam how their small school is the hidden "greatest" IB school or whatever.
I know this might come as a shock to some but schools that aren't Harvard, Yale, Wharton, etc. can still place just as well. I don't attend W&L, but I do go to school very similar to it. Last year alone, the class of 2013at my school put 20 people in FO positions at GS/JP/CS/etc (and this is from a small graduating class). Not saying attend W&L instead of Wharton, if you can go to Wharton by all means go, but going to a school like W&L isn't a death wish (quite the opposite). Small schools tend to have reliable alumni connections that can take them far.
The 43 "Economics and Finance: IB" people most definitely includes FO, MO, and BO. It also probably includes everything from IM, PWM, etc. I have some friends at W&L, and they told me that the majority of their FO people go to places like WFS, STRH and other MM/lower MM shops. Good jobs, but not at all what you're trying to make it out to be.
Best undergrad school for IB? School of Hardknocks. For more information regarding application deadlines and enrollment: http://www.schoolofhardknocks.org.uk/
It's a UK school... Outstanding placement rates at Barclays (London... obviously).
Don't know too much about the school... but have seen a ton of W&L kids go into the SLF group at JPM.
This is pretty clearly some weird attempt at propaganda. No posts in their history and now touting a midranked LAC (in Lexington VA, which is a shithole, for those who are curious). Seems pretty questionable.
Know few people from W&L who worked as BB analyst and now in MBA program, etc. Total bros.
Don't know much about W&L, but I know a couple people that went there... all were pretty sharp and knew how to have a good time. Doesn't surprise me that students from that school place well.
Alright, comparing W&L to harvard/wharton is a stretch, but it seems to place students better than all schools except HYPS. If people disagree, please show me any career data of any school where 17% (43/240) students go into IB. http://www.wlu.edu/Documents/career-development-center/annual-reports/2… As for employers, in 2011 they got 6 into JPM, 3 to Deutche, 3 into WF, 1 to GS and a handful of others. Pretty damn good for a "shithole in VA"
As long as we're piling on...
"deutche"?
and secondly,
you say that a wharton/harvard comparison is a stretch, but that WL places better than everyone save "hyps"? do you know what that stands for? (hint: the "p" is not penn).
Amherst (#1 LAC) sends 18% into "Banking+Financial Services a year". That includes ALL finance jobs so the number who are in IB is probably much less than 18%. Just some comparison https://www.amherst.edu/system/files/media/Admissions%2520handout_sprin…
They place into middle-market firms like STRH, Harris Williams, etc.
W&L is inferior to any NESCAC or Ivy for New York FO investment banking. It is comparable or has a slight edge over non-target or semi-target schools on the east coast.
End of thread.
do you have any evidence that W&L is inferior to other NESCAC school?? what are some semi-target schools that you're referring to?
and fyi: they placed approx 15 into BB banks so in 2011 according to career report, and none of those are middle-market firms
The thing is, those are company-wide. They could be in compliance or Corp Fin divisions. Those numbers aren't just for IB/S&T.
You're retarded. Like honest-to-god unteachable retarded. I'm just praying you are some delusional high schooler, or some idiotic propaganda generator. The incoming class to W&L is 480 (where is the 240??? coming from). Forget the fact that 2011 was a very unusual year - is 15 people to FO,MO,BO at a BB impressive to you? Do you realize that Wharton regularly places that amount to GS IBD alone?
The statistics are just absolute garbage. They are not only blown out of the water by HYPSW but also but any of the other half a dozen or so targets.
Sav, you're such a fucking boss. I love it.
Looks like the 243 only includes those who indicated they were employed at graduation (ie, excludes grad school students, non responders, etc)
http://www.wlu.edu/Documents/career-development-center/annual-reports/2…
hahahaha Sav just killed any amount of dignity that W&L grads had. I wouldn't even send my maid's kids to that kind of lower-tier school
The rhetoric in the first post is just absurd. Bunching W&L with Harvard and Wharton (in terms of IBD recruiting) made me puke a little inside. Not only would you be exponentially better off at Harvard or Wharton if IBD is your goal - you'd also be a magnitude better off at schools like UVA, Georgetown, or NYU as well. The latter three might be more relevant comparisons as their selectivity is somewhat similar, but outplace W&L by miles.
This is a hilarious thread...
Alright how about this. How does W&L compare to other top LACs? Bowdoin, Swarth, Amherst, Midd, Williams in terms of IBD? I think that among LACs, W&L is at the top and does better than significantly more selective schools (Amherst, Williams) It is definately no Harvard or Wharton but it does significantly better than all other LACS
You cant even spell definitely. This is just atrocious.
Hey man, go easy on him. W&L is a top IBD school not a top grammar school. You don't waste time on that kind of shit when your end-goal is M&A.
lol
Do you have any info about that?
This might be a dumb question but can someone please explain what makes a target school, a "target school"?
I already know the definition, I'm just wondering what the criteria is to be defined as such because it seems like this entire argument about whether or not W&L is a good school for those who are interested in IB is surrounding the fact that it's not a traditional "target school".
I'm hearing a lot of crap said about W&L here but it's not like it's some shit-state community college. I mean it's just as selective at target ivy schools, probably has students who are just as bright, capable and willing. Perhaps the finance/economic background from some students there isn't as up to par but most knowledge surrounding IB can be found right on the internet these days (WSO, M&A, Vault, etc.)
Idk, I guess I find the whole recruiting process and "target/non-target" labeling in finance/IB strange. You don't really see "target" undergrad med schools or law schools and still people from any school with the right attitude, smarts, and fit can still get into top grad schools and high-pay professions. And, most important of all are successful.
Not to attack or degrade any one/school, but what makes a GTown, UBerkely, Cornell grad anymore desirable than a W&L grad (or similar)? Because as it stands, I've had a difficult time discerning the difference.
Let's say you went to X school, and now you're working at a bank. Chances are, you had help from alumni to get in, and you want to help current students at your alma mater, and thus you want to pull students from X school.
There are tons more people at large banks where their "X school" is an Ivy League/other target school, than smaller schools (semi-target/non-targets). This means more recruiting effort and more positive bias is given towards students at those target schools.
Let's unpack this.
A "target" school is one where there is on-campus recruiting from every significant bank for front office positions. Bulge brackets and elite boutiques, primarily, though top Ivies see the major hedge funds and private equity firms as well. This means that representatives from said firms come to the school to hold information/recruiting events, and then send their people there to conduct first round interviews. Target schools generally have a guaranteed number of slots for their candidates to fill at the major banks. Sometimes separate Super Days as well. You get the idea. Top targets include Harvard, Wharton, Yale, Princeton, etc.
Nobody is "talking crap" about W&L. It's not a community college by any means. It's a good (not top, good) liberal arts school. (Apparently. I'd never heard of it.) What we are saying is that it is not a traditional target school. Which is true.
W&L is not as selective as the Ivies. It has an admissions rate of 20%. Harvard, Yale, and Princeton have admissions rate of like, 6%. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
W&L may or may not have students as bright and capable as Harvard students. That isn't really relevant for this conversation, which is about whether or not W&L is a good place to get a front-office finance position at a bulge bracket bank.
You're right, there is no such thing as a "target" or "non-target" for most forms of graduate school admissions. (This is not true for MBA programs, by the way). But we're not talking about law or medical school admissions. We're talking about getting a front-office finance position at a bulge bracket bank.
Georgetown, Berkeley, and Cornell grads are more desirable than W&L grads because their alma maters send a large number of high-quality candidates to bulge bracket banks every single year. Berkeley has always sent great people to Goldman SF, so Goldman SF has kept coming back. And Berkeley alumni make sure to arrange info-sessions, screen resumes of other Berkeley students, etc. (As an example).
Thanks for the explanation. But I still have a few questions.
If selectivity plays a role in the criteria of target schools then I see your point however, in regards to top LACs I don't think any school has an acceptance rate lower than 14%, and in comparison to W&L that isn't that much of difference and still commendable, nonetheless.
I was referring to lower ivies (think Cornell, Brown, Dartmouth) but fair enough because I never specified.
The fact that places like GTown, Berkely, and Cornell have higher rates of recruitment than non/semi targets still doesn't appear to speak towards their assumed superiority. Your statement seems very cyclical like "Cornell grads are more desirable than W&L grads because their alumni/alma maters were desirable". But what exactly distinguishes this desirability, esp. between schools that are so similar in selectivity, rigor, caliber of students?
Why exactly is the methodology of law or medicals school admissions/professions not relevant? Why isn't IB recruitment based solely on meritocracy like law or med? All are highly selective career paths, well payed, good exit opps, etc. I'm just confused as to why brand name matter so much with this profession.
Imagine all those well-connected kids in Washington who wasted their time in high school and couldn't get into UVA, and then finally come to a realization that they also have work hard to protect their heritages. W&L surely has its own niche.
they place a fair amount of students at SunTrust in Atlanta
Say I attend a top LAC (but not Williams Amherst or Swarth). Would you say they are all pretty much equal in terms of IDB chances??? For example: Bowdoin, W&L, Midd, Colby, Colgate.. I dont think any BBs directly recruit, but all schools are fairly well represented on wall street. In this scenario, my only chances of landing an IBD would be to network with alumni, correct? I am looking at LACs because they offer much better fin aid packages than the semi-targets I could get into (WashU, emory,BC,ND) Would you say that around 40-50k of debt would be worth it to attend one of these over the LACs?
I highly doubt you can get into any of the schools you named. You should work at W&L's career services, your subtle advertising skills could be valuable.
There will always be someone who has a more prestigious degree from a more prestigious school, etc. etc. I truly dont understand the point of attempting to make school A look as good as school B. Who gives a shit?
You're the man.
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