The Real Estate Job Hunt - Mid Level
Was wondering how everyone's job search is going, especially those with 5 to 10 years of experience.
I'm currently an Associate (acquisitions & development) at a boutique investment shop in a major non-NYC east coast market. I have 6 years experience including 2 years at a brokerage shop and 4 years at my current role. Have done over 10 deals (acquisitions and development combined) so far worth over a billion dollars. Very mediocre education background though. Non-target undergraduate followed right away by a sub-30 ranking school's Master of Accounting.
I have been job hunting since March 2019, and have found it extremely difficult to land interviews for mid to large size firms, be it LP, PERE, national or regional developers. When I was job hunting at the brokerage firm, it was as difficult but understandable since I had little deal experience. Thought it would be different when I have more years and deals under my belt.
What's more frustrating is that I just got rejected by a national firm after 3 rounds of interviews over 2 months, including one final round lunch interview. I thought I got the job when I received the lunch interview invitation.
Anyway, for those with over 5 years experience, how is your job hunt going? Is it difficult for everyone, or just me because of my education background. Appreciate the input.
Are you me?
But seriously, i think at this point in our careers it's tough to rely on job postings/conventional application approach. My peers have been transitioning laterally through their network, mentor referrals, or headhunters.
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This is everything.
Credit officers and relationship managers at banks like BoA, Wells Fargo, Capital One....tons of openings
That only hire people with bank training, especially at associate and up level.
I do GSE/CMBS at a bank in NYC, but want to transition back to my home state in 3-4 years. Only CRE jobs seem to be at banks and brokerages. Do you think my experience would check the box for a bank’s balance sheet if they don’t have GSE business down there?
Seems silly as commercial banking is not rocket science...
I found the same. Just not that many large companies out there. Keep looking
I have 6 years of experience (brokerage, credit risk, LIHTC) and went to a good liberal arts college and it hasn't been easy to land interviews in my market in the northeast, probably because there are 100+ applicants for every job.
Any tips for people looking to change markets? I have a friend trying to relocate from NYC to LA who is having trouble, especially since its hard to network across the country. Is reaching out to an LA based RE focused headhunter the right move?
I would say so. What does your friend want to do in RE?
Can't be afraid to travel. It shows a certain level of commitment to fly to a new city just to grab coffee with someone.
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Confused on this...aren't relationships all that matter after 5-10 years? And moving geographically destroys most of your network...
You can have relationships that extend beyond your specific region, albeit smaller. There's also more to life than just career upside. Sometimes you take two steps back to take ten steps forward.
Not to mention your market knowledge, but there's work and then there's life.
Depends what role you play. Local broker? Yeah, moving could crush your network. National lender or LP? Shouldn't matter as much.
I am on the LP side and most of my network is scattered across the country.
He's in REPE acquisitions/asset management and operates entirely outside of his own market already. Firm is based in NYC but he covers random cities in the south and midwest and spends 95% of his time interfacing with non-NYC RE people so I don't think he's concerned about losing many contacts if he leaves. Would obviously still have to "start over" a bit if he relocates to a west coast REPE but it's not like he's a broker and would have to totally restart.
I think the older you get the longer it takes to move jobs. Given you started in March of this year, that means you've been in the market for ~5 months, the majority of which coming during the summer months when things are generally quieter. Just keep plowing through opportunities and stay in the market and eventually something will stick. All of my job moves have taken 12+ months from the time I initially started looking. I'll also add that the jump between Analyst / Associate and VP / DM / AVP rarely happens when switching firms. You'll probably come in as an associate wherever you land.
Over the past couple years it seems the supply-demand dynamic at the mid-tier acquisitions professional level has gotten out of whack. I know a ton of guys who feel they are underpaid (and they are IMO) looking around while simultaneously attempting to negotiate with their current employer. Thing is there doesn't seem to be a lot of great openings and the ones that are open pay like absolute shit. So OP, you're not imagining things, the amount of associate level professionals looking for greener pastures has grown while good opportunities are few and far between. It's a helluva a lot tougher out there than it was 18-24 months ago. A lot of that is cyclical, for sure.
The Associate level job market is just so damn fickle right now with no where to go
I'm sure everyone has seen the compensation spreadsheet on WSO. I can't believe how low comp is for investment guys (dev, acq or otherwise) with ±5yrs experience. I think this is a product of a lot of quality talent at the associate level and few openings at this point in the cycle. The market just sucks at this level. Think about it, you don't REALLY add tremendous value at the associate level. The jump to director / AVP is the most important one and the most challenging to achieve.
It's sad that you basically have to go to market, get a competitive offer / get close to one and use it as leverage with your firm to get paid somewhere near what you're worth.
I just reread this and it's a really unorganized shitty rant so I apologize.
That's quite a hard-to-swallow pill
This is 100% accurate. There are way too many qualified associate level candidates gunning for shrinking pool of Director positions. The problem with acquisitions and development is that the turnover at the Director/VP level is very low at top shops because it is an interesting fulfilling career path with high upside for principal track.
The real demand in the CRE space is for qualified superintendents and project managers that can run large complicated developments. College-educated superintendents are making $200k+ while recruiters blast them with emails every week.
Agreed. At the associate level you are basically just an analyst who doesn't need to be trained on the absolute basics, but will still be a liability for a few months while you are finding your groove. Also once you reach a point where your comp is tied to deal execution it almost never makes sense to leave.
Could this be due to the massive bracket of millennials finally getting old enough to pursue more senior jobs? A wise fund manager once told me real estate (and probably anything) is like a pyramid. Fewer jobs as you go up.
This could be scary if it applies to the industry and really any industry in the US. Aren't millennials one of the biggest generations in a while?
Where is this salary spreadsheet you're referring to. I am looking into development project management and would like to get an idea of the market
Where can I find this comp spreadsheet?
I've been interviewing around, I'm an AVP now looking to make a jump to VP or similar title but be running a team or at a level in which I can get some carried interest.
The issue I've run into is all of these 3-4 man shops who raised 100M in equity are scrambling for acquisition people to find deals for them but only want to pay someone 100K. This is because they NEED a modeler and only WANT some help on acquisitions but if the shop only has 100M they dont need a full fledged acquisition guy 100% of the time, they need help burning through books.
Its happened multiple times to me, after sitting down with the principals the recruits call me and say "look you're exactly what they told us they were looking for but after meeting with you decided they need an associate instead."
Too many mid market shop where the principals are the "deal guys" because they do such low volume. They cant find deals but dont want to pay becasue 100% of their previous deals came via a marketed OM.
That sucks man.
Why are you trying to jump ship?
How many years of experience do you have? This is exactly what I am experiencing...
Anyone here work at a top 50 REPE firm and having the same trouble as the guys above?
Yes. Been in touch with all of the top recruiting firms/headhunters and there really aren't many attractive associate/director/VP-level roles out there right now. My geographic focus is narrow, which limits the pool of jobs, but even then, those that I've seen in other top markets really aren't compelling enough to make me want to leave. Have had a few interviews but the comp was either low or the teams dull and lackluster. It's nice not to be in a rush to move, however it's still surprising there aren't more interesting, high-paying jobs at this level given the amount of capital raised over the last 12-24 months that needs to be deployed by a lot of firms.
Delete
Also wanted to use this thread to get your guys' opinion on this. If you get rejected after the final round, is it wise to ask the interviewer to introduce you to other firms that might be hiring? Suppose you did well in the interview but didn't get the job only because competition is strong.
I'm in similar boat as OP, and i think I didn't get the job because of fit more than anything else. Maybe non-target as well. The interviewer went to HYP although he click well with me.
This feels extraordinarily odd to me and I would recommend against it. It's your job to find other firms, not the person who didn't hire you.
It is very different, in my opinion, from grabbing coffee with someone, them telling you they aren't hiring, and then asking "who else should I be grabbing coffee with?"
If you are polite and thank him for his time I don't think that this is a bad idea at all. You have absolutely nothing to lose...
I went through this 12-16 months ago. 2 years of top 5 capital markets/IS analyst/associate experience and 3 years of development associate experience at an institutional shop. Undergraduate degree in finance from a "good" public school (not top 10).
I got plenty of first round interviews and was flown out 4-5 times for final rounds. Some of the feedback after the final rounds I received was that I was too experienced for the senior analyst or associate role and they thought I would leverage the experience to try to land a Director role elsewhere (true).
I probably applied to 50+ shops. Feedback from recruiters was that there is a large oversupply of talent currently in and coming into the space. Many top 10 MBA's now view CRE as a preferred career space, particularly development/acquisitions principal side. I was fortunate to find a boutique discretionary REPE fund where my personality clicked extremely well with the managing principal. Still at the associate level, but will ask for a title change soon because internal recruiters think title = experience.
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~$500 million in total stabilized asset value on the acquisitions/development side. $1.5b+in closed investment sales and debt/equity placement on the capital markets brokerage side.
I've now worked on every single asset class other than data centers and marinas. Of course, these idiot internal recruiters would rather hire a top 10 MBA with zero real estate experience because apparently receiving an MBA makes you a genius that can learn 5 years of high-level CRE experience in a few months.
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Supply and Demand. It was tough getting interviews while being from NYC metro. Its a rat race
I was / currently am in your position and I felt the same way. Granted I am looking at analyst level jobs and I know this is an Associate-type post, but I am from the Midwest and was able to get 3 in-person interviews in NYC in July and should be hearing back soon.
No networking or anything, just the standard pump and dump of online applications. Like triops44 said, it's all about supply and demand for these firms, but at the end of it, luck and timing play a huge role. Keep grinding and guarantee you find something.
Agreed - super tough out there.
Reasons are (some have been addressed here, some have not been):
Deal quality is rapidly deteriorating and there are significantly more players fighting over deals. At the same time, there are more people looking for real estate jobs as people are figuring out real estate is just not that complicated.
Here is that comment broken down:
As an associate you are a cost center. Figure out how you can add a component that will make the firm more money and I think you will see some doors will open.
Good luck!
Pretty spot on on with a lot of these comments. However, I would somewhat disagree with your equity comment; there seems to be a ton of dry capital sitting on the sidelines. The challenge (as you've previously highlighted), is getting deals to pencil for these groups. No one is buying into endless market rent growth. And factoring in a defensible cap rate expansion will be a deal killer for a good chunk of the deals on the market.
One has to be creative in their acquisition approach. How can you create value that others aren't seeing is critical to winning deals in this market.
Sub 3% cap-rates? Holy shit...
I think that’s a bit of a stretch. I’ve seen core industrial deals flirt with the 3.50%-3.75% range, but I don’t think sub-3% caps are possible. No firm has a cost of capital that low.
Then you never worked in multifamily
It isn't a stabilized cap rate. in NYC generally you buy at a sub 3 cap if you can build out upon sale to a 5%+ cap rate.
NYC middle market MF is trading from 4% caps to 5.5% caps, depending where you are.
Has your Masters of Accounting provided any value to you for your career in RE? Have seen quite a few guys in my country with a Master in Acc or Acc&Fin that work in RE..
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Outside of a controller at a RE firm, no.
LOL...I am in the exact same situation as you are, except on the debt side. Tons of jobs out there, but mostly Senior Analysts/Junior Associates - and for the roles that are senior associate/VP levels, the competition is intense. To provide some background - I am a CRE debt guy and its been extremely frustrating over the past few months. Wish I had some input to add.
We are in the same boat my friend. Hard to justify making a lateral switch
Agree.. tough out there rn
VP/manager level usually only hire people who are already VP/manager
We exclusively promote internally at manager/director and above, it’s almost impossible to come in at manager level and above unless you are already VP/manager at other major financial institutions
We just hire a director from invesco and he came in at sr.associate level, true story
Interestingly two recruiters reached out to me today regarding RE development associate roles for two different positions along the East Coast. Not sure if it has anything to do with firms waiting until the end of summer to begin their search or what....anyone else seeing mid level openings?
I'm seeing a lot of questionable listings - either places you wouldn't want to work, or at least wouldn't leave your current job for, or places looking for "Development Associates" that "must have 5-8 years of experience" or "Development Managers" that "must have 10-15 years of experience."
Isn't development associate a mid to high tier positions.(typical caveat that real estate titles are not homogenous). At my last company we had a 30+ year old who was an associate for huge name private condo company. His/Her background was construction lending at an AVP level at a BB. He took the developer job in his 30s with like 8-years of experience.
Doesn't the heirarchy go, analyst, project associate, PM, development associate, VP/Director?
Echo this sentiment above heavily. Been hunting for associate roles in NYC and have gotten tons of first round and phone interviews but when it comes to actually getting an offer, it's proven very difficult. Associate job market seems very fickle and the thought of lateraling for a similar pay package with the unknown risks surrounding a new team and environment, just don't make much sense.
Associate roles are weird imo. Our bank generally prefers to promote our own analysts and make them associates. We are open to hiring analysts at the junior most level and directors at the senior most level from outside but a lot of our mid level hires are promoted from within.
Totally agree with this. When I was an Analyst, I had zero luck moving up externally. As a result I kept lateraling to other Analyst roles at new companies which essentially gets you nowhere besides a slight bump in pay. I eventually buckled down and outright fought for a promotion at my current company. It is typically the only way to go at mid-level unless you happen to luck out and get one of the rare Sr. Analyst/Associate roles externally. There really is zero reason to hire an Sr. Analyst/Associate externally when you have dozens of Analysts internally that can be promoted (assuming all of the Analysts internally aren't horrible at their jobs)
Hi @BigCompanyGuy" , It's not just hard for you, everybody with more years of working experience suffer from this condition at one point of time. There is nothing wrong with your educational background or something, it is just you are over-qualified for the jobs you are seeking. If bigger firms push you down, try helping out the start-ups who will qualify your working experience.
Curious if you guys think (in your experience) that there will be more jobs/openings for folks (any level) as we get closer to the end of the year?
It’s always hard to get promoted by switching job at junior-mid level. Prove yourself at one place is the best testimony of your performance.
I think a lot of the difficulties being described on this thread are not cyclical but rather a natural result of a career path where the junior skill set is all about analysis/execution and the senior skill set is all about relationship building.
We see this in almost every profession . . law, banking, consulting etc. Junior guys do the work, senior guys win business (yes even on the buy side, I'll do a separate post if needed) and midlevels go through an awkward and messy transition period where their marketability is all about their future sales skills but their track record is all analysis and execution.
I don't know what the solution is, but to me that's clearly the problem. Midlevels are always in a weird place, and its only tougher if you have to switch firms.
While there's no easy answer I think that recognizing the structural issue will help someone realize that its just a tough situation so they need to pull out all the stops. Network harder, lower the bar for what job you'd accept, carve out extra time for the search, etc etc. Good news is, if you're going through a midlevel job switch there's a decent chance it'll be the toughest thing you face and everything will seem easy afterward.
Great post. I’m an analyst but have a lot of anxiety around exactly what you’re talking about. Even if you go from Goldman REIB to Acquisitions at Apollo and do great, error-free work, you still may not have the skills to generate business or be well-liked enough to move up the ladder
Buy side line up for sought after investments, like K-deal b-piece. Good luck buying one without exceptional relationship with Freddie
Even on the buy side you’re always selling. Talking to entrepreneurs you need to sell them on your experience and why you can bring “more than just money”. To even get in front of those entrepreneurs you build relationships with the sell side. And unless you’re the head of the fund, you’re always massaging the relationship with your boss so you’ll get buy-in in the next idea/initiative. And of course, if you’re the head of the fund you have clients (LPs) just like every other person on earth.
At the end of the day, we should all ask ourselves not “am I a salesman” but rather “what do I like to sell.”. If you like to sell companies be a banker. If you like to sell properties do real estate. If you like to sell contrarian ideas to skeptical rich assholes work at a hedge fund. If you like to sell yourself, particularly the fact that you’re both a genius and a humble person who’s a pleasure to work with, work in private equity.
I could go on but the main idea is, don’t run from sales because that’s almost running from life. Find something where you’re comfortable enough to grow.
I am based in Dallas, and have been getting a lot of recruiter interest for mid-level gigs (I have 6 years experience in Acq/UW). My only issue is a lot of them are shopping roles that include managing an analyst pool which I'd prefer not to deal with.
It's kinda implicit that by moving up you have to manage people
Yes and no. Helping bring along 1 or 2 analyst isn't a problem, but some have asked if I would be okay with up to 5.
I also think that running the analyst team implies you are the point of contact between the junior staff and deal guys which isn't ideal.
How is pay relative to COL in Dallas? I have been intrigued by the market.
Well lets break it down:
Apartment you would want to live in: $1700 and up East Dallas town home: $350k and up First house in M-Streets: $450k and up House + good public school (Frisco, Plano, McKinney, Southlake): $500k and up Living the good life in Park Cities: $1.1mm and up
With a career in CRE in Dallas this is all within reach. Most top off around the house + good public school stage. Get lucky with the right firm/piece of the equity, and Park Cities could happen.
Damn, everyone is going to move here eventually... Traffic is already horrendous and Texas will vote blue by 2024.
What recruiters have you found to be best for DFW?
Gillham, Golbeck is the best in DFW. Easton Recruiting is also very active and seems to always have a solid pipeline. Definitely set calls up with them if you are looking in DFW.
I think the problem is that there's been a stagnation in deal volume, and with regards to development there just aren't that many jobs period. How many firms are there in major metros that are building multiple institutional-backed projects at once? Also how big is the average development team? Then think about how many people there are on WSO alone who desire roles at those companies.
In my opinion, hiring will be bleak until something significant changes in the market. The senior folks have no reason to leave their cushy jobs until they are 70+ because the jobs are entirely relationship-based.
I was at a development firm for a while, think about this as those project finish and there is only smaller projects in the pipeline you now have Analyst-MD who are understaffed until a new deal comes in and if it requires less people you end up top heavy which no one wants to be.
I had this long post that got deleted, but basically I don't think it is you. RE has some structural issues, with many companies being barbell shaped with associates being the smallest section or not wanting to hire people with MBAs are great, but RE is more of a practical vs. theoretical field and there is a lot that you learn on the job vs. in school.
I switched jobs recently (moving from AVP to VP), but I spent about 10 months hunting. I did end up with 4 offers during that 10 month period, but I'm a bit of a niche employee (debt AM that doesn't want to move to originations with 12+ years of experience). The longest two offers took 7 to 8 months to get, the shortest two were 3 and 4 months and I was lucky that 3 of the 4 offers hit within 2 weeks of each other so I could choose (I kept recruiters/HR informed and they were all willing to work with me). The last offer came 3 weeks after I had accepted the job I have now, but ended up going to a friend of mine, which I'm happy about (it was my 2nd choice anyways because of location).
On the equity side, I have two VP level friends (one AM, one acquisitions) that have both been looking for close to a year for new spots. They both have gotten close to offers, but in one case, the firm decided not to hire at all because of changes with their capital. So on the equity side, it does seem much harder than debt.
7-8 months is ridiculous, HR is so incompetent...
I believe there is a saying that for every ~20k in salary you want you should expect your job search time to take a month.
In my experience companies are much more gun shy when hiring VP+ as being wrong there is much more consequential (both in salary and firm moral) than at analyst/associate roles.
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