12/4/11

I know most consider MBB to be the top tier consulting firms but I was wondering what you guys think of OW, Booz & Co, Monitor, etc in terms of their rank/tier. Also, I know Booz Allen and Booz & Co split up a few years ago and just recently their non-compete clause expired, so do you guys think Booz & Co or Booz Allen will ever be considered tier 1 consulting firms as it was before the split?

Comments (187)

12/4/11

the McBainston Group is tops. forget everyone else, you might as well push a mop otherwise.

Management Consulting Interview Course

12/4/11

That's not true. MBB is really the top - but other firms like Booz and Monitor have historically competed with them really well. Where do they stand today? I can't give you an informed answer. But I would really like some credible answers either backed by source or experience in the consulting industry.

And please don't give me the Vault guide as a credible source.

12/4/11

It really depends on industry and types of engagements.

Of the big 4, I'd say Deloitte's the best.

Then you have your elite boutiques (OW, Marakon, parthenon)

Then you have your tech firms (Accenture, IBM, Infosys)

Then you have government (BAH)

Why do you care about rank again? B-school placement?

12/4/11

this is the blind leading the blind again.

MBB = tops. M > BB. BB > all the other ones. that's all you need to know.

12/4/11

Prestige:
MBB
Booz, Deloitte
Monitor, OW, AT Kearney
LEK, PwC, Accenture
Marakon, ZS
IBM, KPMG, EY

12/5/11

What's your source? Seems like vault at the top tier.

12/5/11

Stop trolling ivoteforthatguy. If you were actually in consulting you would know that the only thing that matters is accounts won and b-school placement. From that standpoint, it's very subjective based on situation, with the clear distinguishment being MBB for overall competitiveness.

And no one in real life goes down a "prestige list" in evaluation. From that standpoint, pure rankings like 1mpossible are full of shit.

P.S. ATK is highly underrated on these forums.

12/5/11
Xepa:

Stop trolling ivoteforthatguy. If you were actually in consulting you would know that the only thing that matters is accounts won and b-school placement. From that standpoint, it's very subjective based on situation, with the clear distinguishment being MBB for overall competitiveness.

And no one in real life goes down a "prestige list" in evaluation. From that standpoint, pure rankings like 1mpossible are full of shit.

P.S. ATK is highly underrated on these forums.

  1. no
  2. i was
  3. stupid questions deserve stupid answers
12/5/11

I'm inclined to agree with Xepa's point that the type of work matters a lot. The list from 1mpossible mixes these things (and, at the lower levels, doesn't match my personal experience).

ATK is fairly well regarded but on a bit of a downward trajectory - they have been steadily increasing in the % of projects in operational cases, to the point where they aren't always included on RFPs for top line growth or DDs even where they have offices and relationships.

I think PwC and Accenture are both a bit high and Parthenon is a notable one that is entirely missing.

Especially on the Big 4, though, it is important to distinguish between practices. It'd be silly to compare Systems Integration for Accenture to Marakon, for example. To my best understanding, Deloitte's S&OP practice is the only one of the Big 4 practices considered to be reasonably competitive in completely non-IT engagements. For the others, even their strategy/management work tends to be a functional portion of systems work or, at a minimum, cross-sold without an RFP. For example, I don't think my office has been in a competitive proposal with KPMG, EY, or PwC since I've been here (over 2 years now).

Frankly, after MBB, tiers don't matter nearly as much as your personal experience. If you have a chance to go to a firm where you interned or the partners already know you and trust you enough to let you steer your own career a bit, that is worth way more than moving for an incremental "prestige" slot. What you learn and how that fits into your career (or, for b-school and other interviews, into your "story") will certainly outweight any difference within the category of strategy boutiques (or the strategy practices of Big 4/Accenture).

12/5/11

ATK, Capco , Analysis, Charles River, RB?

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12/5/11

Yeah, where is Ronald Berger in all of this?

12/5/11

The comments highlight the need to differentiate different work.

Economic consulting firms (Analysis Group, Charles River, Cornerstone, etc.) are again an entirely different beast. Many go to MBA, which would make them seem similar, but a lot go to law school and the industry/PE exits are very limited and different from strategy work. The concept of ranking entirely different firms by prestige becomes a pointless exercise when they don't compete for work and their analysts don't compete for exits...

12/5/11

Economic Consulting lends itself to many getting it to Law School? care to elaborate...

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12/5/11

So far we've seen rankings but no real back up for them in this thread. If the real world case is that there is no consensus, then it all depends on what alumni network you can get in touch with compared to which exit opps you want to take.

12/5/11

What makes a firm Tier1 is that its top notch across different regions and industries.
That certainly holds true for McK and BCG, and mostly also for Bain.

The Tier2 firms each have unique strengths and weaknesses.
It's impossible to rank these objectively, as e.g. perhaps Monitor's regional weakness in Europe might be irrelevant to an American applicant, but a huge deal to an applicant from France.
Hence people largely agree that MBB are Tier1, however after that it gets somewhat blurred.

examples for Tier2:
OW is very strong in financial strategy, however does little strategic planning.
Berger is Tier1 in Europe and China, but small in the US.

That being said, I suppose most people would agree that the "clusters" go as follows:

Tier1:
Bain
BCG
McKinsey

large Tier2:
ATK
Berger
Booz
Deloitte
Wyman

Tier2, small with regional focus:
LEK
Monitor
OC&C

"scale > quality" Tier3
Accenture
Capgemini
EY
KPMG
PWC

another factor is recruiting - the rockstar candidates who get offers from various firms will always choose MBB over others.
Booz is a huge firm, but they simply can't hang with MBB when it comes to cross-offers, big problem.
Berger has a hard time shaking off it's Euro-centric image (you're on their career website http://join.rolandberger.com/ and click on an Event... boom, everything in German all of a sudden.)

12/6/11

Generally agree with 24837's list - like it or not this is how the rankings are for prestige etc.

One minor disagreement from me would be about Capgemini - if Accenture, PWC are Tier 3, Cap is Tier 4.

12/5/11

24837 has a very solid list. Here's a great article with some interesting and hard datasets.

http://firmsconsulting.com/2010/10/13/official-pro...

12/5/11

What about Arthur D.Little?

12/5/11
mrman90:

What about Arthur D.Little?

if you're into project management for nuclear power plants go ahead.
other than that - definitely past their peak.

case in point: ADL Sweden offices defected to Roland Berger this year.

12/5/11

Why does Parthenon never get play on here?

"The disdain of profit is due to ignorance."
- F.A. Hayek

12/5/11

because it's so small and many people haven't heard of them

12/6/11
whaat:

because it's so small and many people haven't heard of them

Fair enough, but as far as boutiques go, they've got to be pretty close to the top, no?

"The disdain of profit is due to ignorance."
- F.A. Hayek

12/5/11

@24837 I don't know if I would put ATK that high. But other than that looks solid

12/6/11
consultantbhai:

@24837 I don't know if I would put ATK that high. But other than that looks solid

intra-cluster ranking is alphabetical, I definitely don't think ATK is the leading Tier2.

ATK is the same size as RB, yet has double the number of partners...

12/6/11

I don't know about the US, but in Europe Deloitte's daily rates are 500-1000 EU lower than the other tier 2 companies'

12/6/11

don worry, parthenon is very prestigious in the US

12/6/11
ilovews:

don worry, parthenon is very prestigious in the US

Yeah, I mean, a firm that readily broadcasts that it exclusively recruits from Harvard, Stanford, Williams, Duke, and Dartmouth for its U.S. offices can't be too bad lol

http://www.parthenon.com/Undergraduate/RecruitingR...

The absence of Wharton is interesting. Maybe it's because Parthenon looks for "smart, NICE, and driven" recruits, and they figured out a while ago that they can't find anyone nice at Wharton :p

"The disdain of profit is due to ignorance."
- F.A. Hayek

12/6/11

My own consulting list, for what it's worth is below. My rankings come from personal experience, close contacts, industry perception, and current wins:

Tier 1:
Bain
BCG
McKinsey
Reasoning: Prestige is stupid, misplaced, and completely....well, relevant.

Tier 2:
Berger
Booz
Deloitte
Reasoning: Deloitte has done an outstanding job building a strategy group. They're the first to break from the Big 4 mold/stereotype. The only other Big 4 that's done anything to mirror that success is in the next tier...

Tier 3:
LEK
Monitor
OC&C
PwC
Wyman
Reasoning: PwC is on an acquisition spree. PTRM and Diamond are two major buys. Their book of business is pretty legit. Wyman has a lot of prestige points, but is still relatively a boutique at the end of the day.

Tier 4:
Accenture
Capgemini
EY
Reasoning: If we were going strictly by business segment, Accenture's implementation work is top notch. However, its strategy group is small, and its Management Consulting unit many times stays within the implementation sphere. EY just keeps chugging along.

Honorable Mention:
KPMG
Reasoning: KPMG is losing talent constantly, and pay/wins/prestige is last in the Big 4. I haven't heard a good story, and my friends have been applying elsewhere at a good pace.

My two cents, for what it's worth.

I'm incriminating myself.

12/6/11

B4A23 and the rest of you - what would you say regarding Deloitte's prestige and exit opportunities?

12/6/11
consultantbhai:

B4A23 and the rest of you - what would you say regarding Deloitte's prestige and exit opportunities?

Deloitte is quality man. If you get in S&O, you've got a great shot a few years down the line for a top MBA.

The brand is respected across the consulting industry and F500s. I can't really speak to PE/HF, so I'd rather not just regurgitate what I heard someone else say.

I'm incriminating myself.

12/6/11

But isn't it like 50% implementation? Do you know anyone that works at Deloitte that can confirm / deny this?

12/7/11
consultantbhai:

But isn't it like 50% implementation? Do you know anyone that works at Deloitte that can confirm / deny this?

If you build your network and prove yourself to be a rockstar, you'll be guaranteed to be on strategy projects all the way through.... don't build your network properly and you'll be stuck doing PMOs until you quit.

12/7/11
consultantbhai:

But isn't it like 50% implementation? Do you know anyone that works at Deloitte that can confirm / deny this?

Also, don't underestimate the amount of implementation work at what we are calling "top tier" firms. One of the reasons strategy consulting as a whole is growing so quickly is because the definition is fluid. I know that McK has a lot of operational work and BCG is moving in that direction. Bain and BCG have done some of the biggest PMIs in recent years. McK has always run the gamut more than BCG and Bain (it existed before strategy consulting as currently defined was created, advocating scientific management based on rigorous accounting practices or something), but both are moving in that direction as they grow.

At the end of the day, not many clients are paying for pure strategy nowadays. Even projects that have a pure strategy phase tend to require significant proof-of-concept or long-term implementation support. Last year, both Bain and BCG went into several proposals advertising their ability to lead "transformational" projects, defined as a short strategy phase followed by ~1 year implementation.

A good friend of mine worked at Deloitte and he spent a full year in the pricing practice because several of the partners became staunch supporters of his. Pricing is a great example of a type of work where MBB would refer to it as "pricing strategy" and get away with it, but the same work would be considered much more tactical if Deloitte were doing it. At the end of the day, both firms will have teams running elasticities, benchmarking competitors, and doing various price/sales pace analyses...

12/7/11
signposts:
consultantbhai:

But isn't it like 50% implementation? Do you know anyone that works at Deloitte that can confirm / deny this?

Also, don't underestimate the amount of implementation work at what we are calling "top tier" firms. One of the reasons strategy consulting as a whole is growing so quickly is because the definition is fluid. I know that McK has a lot of operational work and BCG is moving in that direction. Bain and BCG have done some of the biggest PMIs in recent years. McK has always run the gamut more than BCG and Bain (it existed before strategy consulting as currently defined was created, advocating scientific management based on rigorous accounting practices or something), but both are moving in that direction as they grow.

At the end of the day, not many clients are paying for pure strategy nowadays. Even projects that have a pure strategy phase tend to require significant proof-of-concept or long-term implementation support. Last year, both Bain and BCG went into several proposals advertising their ability to lead "transformational" projects, defined as a short strategy phase followed by ~1 year implementation.

A good friend of mine worked at Deloitte and he spent a full year in the pricing practice because several of the partners became staunch supporters of his. Pricing is a great example of a type of work where MBB would refer to it as "pricing strategy" and get away with it, but the same work would be considered much more tactical if Deloitte were doing it. At the end of the day, both firms will have teams running elasticities, benchmarking competitors, and doing various price/sales pace analyses...

MiRaj:

We would be a lot better off if everyone on this forum read this ^. Having had experience at Deloitte and now an MBB, this is 100% true.

I agree with the above. Can't speak to BCG, but I know Mck has been beginning to move into some more implementation-type projects recently and Bain has lost a couple bids based on the implementation component. Deloitte S&O (stay away from tech and stay away from S&O federal) has a wide variety of things they do, which does includes a lot of implementation. But along with that variety of experiences comes some flexibility to move among them.

Cold hard truth:

Strategy is lean and sexy, but implementation is where the firm makes the big money.

"Buy gas. It's a sure-fire commodity with no risk except for the sure risk of fire." - Stephen Colbert

12/7/11
Bidibodi Bidibu:
signposts:
consultantbhai:

But isn't it like 50% implementation? Do you know anyone that works at Deloitte that can confirm / deny this?

Also, don't underestimate the amount of implementation work at what we are calling "top tier" firms. One of the reasons strategy consulting as a whole is growing so quickly is because the definition is fluid. I know that McK has a lot of operational work and BCG is moving in that direction. Bain and BCG have done some of the biggest PMIs in recent years. McK has always run the gamut more than BCG and Bain (it existed before strategy consulting as currently defined was created, advocating scientific management based on rigorous accounting practices or something), but both are moving in that direction as they grow.

At the end of the day, not many clients are paying for pure strategy nowadays. Even projects that have a pure strategy phase tend to require significant proof-of-concept or long-term implementation support. Last year, both Bain and BCG went into several proposals advertising their ability to lead "transformational" projects, defined as a short strategy phase followed by ~1 year implementation.

A good friend of mine worked at Deloitte and he spent a full year in the pricing practice because several of the partners became staunch supporters of his. Pricing is a great example of a type of work where MBB would refer to it as "pricing strategy" and get away with it, but the same work would be considered much more tactical if Deloitte were doing it. At the end of the day, both firms will have teams running elasticities, benchmarking competitors, and doing various price/sales pace analyses...

MiRaj:

We would be a lot better off if everyone on this forum read this ^. Having had experience at Deloitte and now an MBB, this is 100% true.

I agree with the above. Can't speak to BCG, but I know Mck has been beginning to move into some more implementation-type projects recently and Bain has lost a couple bids based on the implementation component. Deloitte S&O (stay away from tech and stay away from S&O federal) has a wide variety of things they do, which does includes a lot of implementation. But along with that variety of experiences comes some flexibility to move among them.

Cold hard truth:

Strategy is lean and sexy, but implementation is where the firm makes the big money.

Can't agree with you on this. Strategy firms have tried to develop implementation groups several times in the past and it never works out. MBB will never complete on any large scale for implementation contracts because no one will pay MBB rates for some commoditized PMOs. You're also offending/devaluing your employees by giving them shit work that they would be doing at Accenture or hiring lesser talent where you ruin firm culture by having the redheaded stepchildren of implementation looked down upon.

I think a better plan is in the opposite approach. Infosys, for example, is super well respected in technical work and implementations across industries has a small strategy department led by some McKinsey guys to upsell strategy based on existing work. Obviously, the challenge here is to convince the client you're capable of good strategy work but it's all upside.

12/7/11
jos.a.bankhard:

no one will pay MBB rates for some commoditized PMOs. You're also offending/devaluing your employees by giving them shit work that they would be doing at Accenture or hiring lesser talent where you ruin firm culture by having the redheaded stepchildren of implementation looked down upon.

so true.

this is one of the reasons why the Berger partners ultimately rejected the merger with Deloitte last year.
Many of the Berger consultants simply refused to become part of what they perceived as a Big4 outsourcing machine - the result would've been a major brain drain.
e.g. I know that in Germany BCG and McK already had lists ready with Berger people they planned to poach in case the merger actually happened.

12/7/11

We would be a lot better off if everyone on this forum read this ^. Having had experience at Deloitte and now an MBB, this is 100% true.

12/7/11

Why is implementation a profit generator? Is it simply because of quantity of hours on projects or the revenue per hour on the project?

12/7/11
consultantbhai:

Why is implementation a profit generator? Is it simply because of quantity of hours on projects or the revenue per hour on the project?

Definitely just by sheer quantity of hours. Pure strategy projects I think have higher margins.

But think of it from the partners perspective. You can sell a 4-6 week strategy engagement with a small team of 7 people, or you can sell a 10 month implementation project with a team of 20-30 people. As a partner, you typically only need to sell one of those big implementation projects to "make your numbers" for the year. Whereas with pure strategy work, partners need to be on the road 24/7 selling to make sure they continue to have engagements lined up after the current one wraps up in a few weeks.

"Buy gas. It's a sure-fire commodity with no risk except for the sure risk of fire." - Stephen Colbert

12/7/11
Bidibodi Bidibu:
consultantbhai:

Why is implementation a profit generator? Is it simply because of quantity of hours on projects or the revenue per hour on the project?

Definitely just by sheer quantity of hours. Pure strategy projects I think have higher margins.

But think of it from the partners perspective. You can sell a 4-6 week strategy engagement with a small team of 7 people, or you can sell a 10 month implementation project with a team of 20-30 people. As a partner, you typically only need to sell one of those big implementation projects to "make your numbers" for the year. Whereas with pure strategy work, partners need to be on the road 24/7 selling to make sure they continue to have engagements lined up after the current one wraps up in a few weeks.

This.

Proboscis

12/7/11

and don't forget whenever we do leave for industry... chances are we'll will be in a position where we are implementing and seeing a plan through from concept to completion... might as well start loving it while we're young

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12/7/11

There are far more similarities between consulting firms than there are differences.

12/7/11

at ConanDBull: Well ideally I'd be in a strategy role in the industry. Which requires Strategy experience. Also, don't MBAs respect strategy projects more?

12/7/11
imagine_123:

I know most consider MBB to be the top tier consulting firms but I was wondering what you guys think of OW, Booz & Co, Monitor, etc in terms of their rank/tier. Also, I know Booz Allen and Booz & Co split up a few years ago and just recently their non-compete clause expired, so do you guys think Booz & Co or Booz Allen will ever be considered tier 1 consulting firms as it was before the split?

Anyone want to answer his question?

12/7/11

I knew that it was too much to ask to have an entire thread with reasonable discussion about the reality of the consulting market.

The "OMG MBB IS ELITE, EVERYONE ELSE SUXXORZ" crowd was coming; it was only a matter of time.

Why must we continue to propagate this fallacy that consulting work is completely binary: pure strategy and everything else. It just doesn't work like that. Is McKinsey ever going to be setting up 18-month PMOs where their consultants are functionally employees of the client? No. You better believe that they are trying to sell long-term work that includes strategy rollouts and operational implementations, though. I see it happen all the time. Similarly, Bain and BCG do tons of PMI work. Sounds sexy, until you're arguing about whether the limes on Delta's flights should be cut six times (the delta way) or eight times (the northwest way).

MBB get the highest proportion of interesting, strategically relevant work; it sure isn't 100% of their revenue, though. Other firms, including Deloitte and Accenture also do this work. I've been on proposals for work that we lost to other firms that regularly get trashed on this forum. It happens. I know that probably shatters your superiority complex.

12/7/11

Which firm do you work for Miraj - is it MBB or a second tier / big 4?

12/7/11

Can you elaborate what you didn't agree with? I didn't mean to state an opinion about whether MBB going implementation is good/bad (I agree with you, for what it's worth); I was just listing observations.

The main of which is that there's more money to be made (in general, not necessarily MBB) on large implementation projects due to large teams and long timelines.

It may suck for the underlings, but for the partners who only need to land a few big whales every year, it's a sweet gig.

As for the original question (sorry for the hijack OP!), MBB is seen as the top tier. After that it varies a little bit depending on who you ask. Also, several companies have divisions that outrank their organization as a whole (Oliver Wyman's FS, parts of Deloitte S&O, etc). If you can get Mck, take it. Anything less than that and you should really take the time to decide which company would be a best fit for you. Find out which does the type of work you want experience in. For instance, if you LOVE tech implementation, Accenture is your place. Finance? OW FS. General experience OR supply chain and operations? S&O. Wanna get worked like a mule but learn a lot in a smaller setting? LEK. Etc, etc, etc

As for overall MC recognition, I think B4A23's list is a good general guideline. Stay away from EY, KPMG, CapGemini, Accenture (unless you love ERPs), and Deloitte Tech ( <3 ERPs).

"Buy gas. It's a sure-fire commodity with no risk except for the sure risk of fire." - Stephen Colbert

12/7/11
Bidibodi Bidibu:

Stay away from EY, KPMG, CapGemini, Accenture (unless you love ERPs), and Deloitte Tech ( <3 ERPs).

This is just a generalization and exactly what's wrong with the whole discussion. Is MBB a better place than any of the firms? Yes. But thinking the rest are untouchables is very uninformed. Assuming MBB does far different work is also wrong, especially thinking they don't do implementation. Neither are they as elite price wise as it seems.

Since most of you guys are in NYC, this should be a good example: http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-02-24/local/2...
Basic implementation work. Accenture started it off (see last paragraph). Now McKinsey won the bid to continue on the work. Did they win for reputation only? No. Accenture already saved lot more in Phase 1 and showed they can do it. McKinsey won by undercutting ... .... hold it ... ... Accenture ... .. .hold it again ... ... on price. OMG This is the end of the world.

I must be lying. But wait, there is more: "McKinsey's rate is actually a percentage point lower than what Accenture charged"
http://secondavenuesagas.com/2011/02/23/evening-mu...

And if you bother to read the pdf referred (page 41), Accenture saved twice more than initially projected. Not some bad performance case either. And seems like initially the offers were 10% by Accenture and 9.9% by McK, and McK went back to negotiation tables to lower it to 9% to beat Accenture by price, who didn't lower the margin. There you have it.

And no MBA hire is going to leave his $135K job at MBB (or Deloitte or Accenture) because he is doing implementation work instead of defining the future of P&G or some shit.

12/7/11

@ ConsultantBhai Look up the thread.

12/7/11

At the end of the day, if you are at one of the tier 2s (think one of OW, LEK, Booz, ATK) for 2-3 years, and intend to go to B-school after that:

  1. Would B-school (Harvard, Wharton, Stanford) actually care whether you did strategy or implementation or operations or IT work during your time at tier 2?
  2. If post B-school, you want to lateral to MBB, would MBB care what kind of consulting work you did in tier 2 pre B school?
12/8/11
ilovews:

At the end of the day, if you are at one of the tier 2s (think one of OW, LEK, Booz, ATK) for 2-3 years, and intend to go to B-school after that:

  1. Would B-school (Harvard, Wharton, Stanford) actually care whether you did strategy or implementation or operations or IT work during your time at tier 2?
  2. If post B-school, you want to lateral to MBB, would MBB care what kind of consulting work you did in tier 2 pre B school?

If you are working at one of those firms you mentioned, I'm not sure your first question will be a relevant issue for you.

At least talking to my friends at these firms (read: take with a grain of salt), even though the firms you mentioned are t2, your chances of working on implementation or operations don't seem to be any greater than it is at MBB. The exception is ATK, which seems much more operationally focused. But in general, people at OW, Booz, and LEK mostly do high level projects. In fact, people at LEK for instance probably don't have the relative manpower, know-how or desire to do an 18 month implementation. They just don't do it.

I don't have any post b-school experience so I'm not going to attempt to answer question 2 (and I barely answered question 1!)

Proboscis

12/7/11

I second the previous question

12/8/11

As stated it depends on the region, I know PwC (my firm) has been in quite a few larger bids against McK in the last couple years. Just happens that up here they are wanting transformational change in the companies. You come in, do you strategy work then move into implementing it.

The only painful part of not being McK is that at PwC it is pretty much purely directors/partners with a few managers who do the strategy work, and then oversee implementation (lots of associates, who might have been wallflowers at the strategy table) where MBB it seems (maybe someone can clarify for me) that the associates have far more interaction from the start of the engagement. Just my view on it.

Then again, as another mentioned: The quality of your work and network are probably the largest factors in getting on the exciting work of any kind. Just talk to the supply chain guy who knocked $3BB / year off an $8BB / year year spend by an oil company (Accenture btw). You can guarantee they have executive credibility at that company and a citation most of us can dream of. Maybe it isn't strategy, but I love some of the lean work and the ability to help a company like that.

TT

12/8/11

Thank you for that abacab

"Know what to do, know how to do it, and do it hard." - Juan Castillo

If you are in the Toronto Area join my group "Toronto Prospective Monkeys"
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12/8/11

OW is very strong and prestigious in the financial consulting space no? Also, very well paying I've been led to believe

12/12/11
timothy0:

OW is very strong and prestigious in the financial consulting space no? Also, very well paying I've been led to believe

You are correct. OW pay for whatever reason tends to be a tad higher than MBB at the start level (think years 0-3), and certainly in FS Consulting it has a McKinsey-esque reputation. However, the world is a lot lot bigger than FS and it is therefore not in the MBB league overall.

Management Consulting Interview Course

12/11/11

In consulting 'prestige' doesn't matter much... what matters is what division you work in. For example, even if Deloitte or Accenture are 'prestigious', much of their work is IT consulting and the exit opps out of these shops will be entirely different, compared to those from MBB or OW who had strategy work and who covered strong industries and built strong contacts, etc.

At the end of the day tho, there is a reason MBB is so fucking awesome. It is because exit opps are the best out of these shops. I am not sure what the exact exit opps will be out of shops like Accenture after doing IT consulting type of work. My guess is that you will keep working in IT-related field, not executive or strategy-type of work.

12/12/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

In consulting 'prestige' doesn't matter much... what matters is what division you work in. For example, even if Deloitte or Accenture are 'prestigious', much of their work is IT consulting and the exit opps out of these shops will be entirely different, compared to those from MBB or OW who had strategy work and who covered strong industries and built strong contacts, etc.

At the end of the day tho, there is a reason MBB is so fucking awesome. It is because exit opps are the best out of these shops. I am not sure what the exact exit opps will be out of shops like Accenture after doing IT consulting type of work. My guess is that you will keep working in IT-related field, not executive or strategy-type of work.

Spoken like a true undergrad.

12/12/11

To echo a lot of the things that have been said here.... here are a few anecdotes from my company and my friends.

  1. MBB is bidding aggressively for (and winning some) merger integration work, even on projects they didn't DD for.
  2. Boutique shops (think LEK/Parthenon/OC&C) that historically sold themselves as pure strategy players are now moving into implementation, at different rates.
  3. As yet unconfirmed rumor, but from reliable source, that Deloitte sold more strategy projects by revenue last year than BCG or McK in the US.
12/12/11
F. Ro Jo:

3. As yet unconfirmed rumor, but from reliable source, that Deloitte sold more strategy projects by revenue last year than BCG or McK in the US.

Deloitte also has a lot more non-strategy projects than BCG and McK as well.

Proboscis

12/12/11
F. Ro Jo:

To echo a lot of the things that have been said here.... here are a few anecdotes from my company and my friends.

  1. MBB is bidding aggressively for (and winning some) merger integration work, even on projects they didn't DD for.
  2. Boutique shops (think LEK/Parthenon/OC&C) that historically sold themselves as pure strategy players are now moving into implementation, at different rates.
  3. As yet unconfirmed rumor, but from reliable source, that Deloitte sold more strategy projects by revenue last year than BCG or McK in the US.

To your third point, I have heard the same thing, but I believe it comes down to defining "strategy work". MBB is as guilty (or more) as anyone of overstating the strategic implications of many of their projects (e.g. pricing strategy, supply chain strategy, procurement strategy, etc.) If these are included, I suspect Deloitte is outselling MBB. Coming from a semi-target, many of my friends are at Deloitte S&OP (including the one who did a year in the pricing practice), and my sense is that they are rarely tasked with things as open-ended as MBB sometimes get (e.g. "top 10 opportunities for top line growth" projects or "megatrends and implications for business development" or "culture and organization" projects).

I am not trying to claim that these are more strategic across the board (though I think my first two examples actually are, while the third is sometimes pure bs), but they are categories of strategic work that is fairly common for MBBs and, I think, very rare for Deloitte S&OP.

Within Bain and BCG, I know the consulting staff in several US offices differentiate projects primarily based on duration and revenue focus/cost focus/other. Short projects with a revenue or other focus tend to be the ones that are considered "strategic", whatever is meant by that...

11/27/12

Great Post

11/27/12

From a (continental) European strategy consulting perspective:

Tier 1:
McKinsey
BCG
Roland Berger
Bain

Tier 2:
Booz
OW
ATK

Tier 3:
Big 4 advisory
Monitor
ADL

1/5/13

As a Bain Alum and 20 year consulting veteran, I vote for McKinsey, Bain, and BCG as the most prestigious.
But pretigious is not always better. There are tons of great firms that are not even remotely prestigious. For example, my firm - Argopoint - is not a firm you have never heard of. However, we have Fortune 500 clients who prefer us to the McKinsey's of the world. Keep an open mind!

  • Anonymous Monkey
  •  11/13/15

Hey gents - I am just graduated from B school (not one of the top ones mentioned here - UCLA) and was offered a job by Genpact - how do they rate?

11/13/15

Is this for ugrad or MBA?

For Ugrad its MBB.

After that is the second tier of Deloitte, Booz, Accenture, Monitor. Booz Hamilton is ugrad and pays 50-55k and is really unprestigious compared to Hamilton.

If you don't get MBB I would say don't bother with consulting.

11/13/15

I'm sorry, you need to be more specific. MBB ? It's ugrad, yes.

EDIT: Also, I'm in Europe. If there's a difference between those companies in USA and Europe please let me know. thanks

11/13/15
2be:

EDIT: Also, I'm in Europe. If there's a difference between those companies in USA and Europe please let me know. thanks

I just came here to tell any European to take everything in this thread with a grain of salt.
WSO is an outstanding resource for IB, solid resource for consulting in the US, very mediocre resource for consulting anywhere else in the world.
Considering the OP asked about consulting in Europe - please feel free to ignore the ranking posted and a lot of the comments.
Everything said about Tier 2 in this thread is about 50:50 hit-or-miss. Some of the companies mentioned are non-existent in Europe, on the other hand huge EU Tier 1 not mentioned even once.

Also, the Euro markets are by no means homogeneous, the differences between e.g. UK/ Germany/ CEE are immense in terms of firms/ pay /work.

11/13/15

McKinsey, Boston and Bain ? MBB?

11/13/15

MBB = McKinsey, Boston Consulting Group(BCG), and Bain

11/13/15

So, in your view, the others are a "waste" of time and effort? But why is that? Low salary? I would like to know more.

Thank you for the answers.

11/13/15

I have a few friends at Accenture and Hamilton who absolutely HATE IT. Its very boring work (popping in CD's) and almost no originality. Lots of paper pushing and remedial work/transactional work.

Also you can very easily switch into consulting later on coming out of banking so why not do that first? Especially since consulting to banking is very hard so don't pidgeonhole yourself early on.

The only firms worth pidgeonholing yourself and working long hours for low bonuses would be MBB.

Accenture analysts work like dogs and the exit opps + bonuses suck.

My $0.02

11/13/15

But, when you talk about banking, what do you mean? IB?

thank you for your $0.02. Much appreciated.

11/13/15

Yes, IB.

11/13/15

IB is even more difficult to get in than consulting, at least that's what I think.

All the best.

11/13/15

I think Deloitte and Accenture are more like 3rd Tier. Sure the vault guide ranks them pretty highly but they definitely are viewed as less prestigious than booz or mon.

Also you make it seem like MBB are terrible places to "pigeonhole" yourself into when that is totally not the case. The place amazingly well in top b-schools and have very solid exit opps. coming out... I'd say they are much harder to break into than banking by far.

11/13/15

MBB is at the top, then you have places like Monitor/LEK/Parthenon/Booz and a few others.

11/13/15

people need to stop posting what they think and instead, focus on what they know. consulting at a top firm (MBB) and banking at a top bank (BB) are roughly comparable in selectivity. if anything, MBB is more focused on "pedigree" than banks, but frankly, everyone knows that that crap doesn't matter. exit opportunities are completely different (not sure how that thrown in this discussion) and it all boils down to what you are interested in.

11/13/15

1styearbanker... being at a top 10-15 consulting firm in no way pidgeonholes you. These guys move on to private equity, associate consulting positions, and/or solid business schools. Ibanking is even possible after an MBA so I don't think that solid consulting experience can be said to pidgeonhole anyone.

11/13/15

Consulting in no way pidgeonholes you. Quite honestly, consulting gives you a much wider skillset and allows you to work in enough different capacities that you can go pretty much anywhere after two years (at least at MBB). In many ways, banking limits your exit opps more than MBB consulting does. PE is available through both (esp. from Bain/McK), B-school is available through both, as is HF (though advantage to IB here), but VC/start-up/industry work way better through consulting.

And no, getting into consulting is not easier than IB. Look at the number of BB hires vs number of MBB hires nationwide. And then take a look at how hard the interviews for both are.

However, nothing that I've said here really applies to non-MBB. I don't know enough about those other firms.

11/13/15
sparticus:

...

And no, getting into consulting is not easier than IB. Look at the number of BB hires vs number of MBB hires nationwide. And then take a look at how hard the interviews for both are.

However, nothing that I've said here really applies to non-MBB. I don't know enough about those other firms.

When you say BB hires, which banks are you referring to?

11/13/15
2be:

When you say BB hires, which banks are you referring to?

Bulge bracket generally refers to Citi, Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank, GS, JPM, MS, UBS, and now Barcap (via Lehman) and BoA-ML (especially the ML parts).

11/13/15

^ "However, nothing that I've said here really applies to non-MBB. I don't know enough about those other firms."

-Exactly. Pretty much summarizes it.

Also lol @ Accenture going to top pe and hedge funds. Cheese you really crack me up. "Top 10-15 consulting" loool I can't even name 10 consulting firms. That's like saying "Top 1000 Investment bank".

For me it's MBB or nothing and if you want to get the kiss of death then go ahead.

11/13/15

Consulting is good preparation for general corp management, and obviously for getting to b-school (for UG's). And true, you can in theory do anything coming out of consulting. It gives a broader set of exit opportunities. But I would argue that it's MUCH more difficult to break into PE, HF's, and VC's without the modeling/transactional skills that bankers develop. Look at any major PE shop / VC fund - there are far more ex-bankers than ex-consultants.

11/13/15

True. But that is compound by the fact that more bankers generally want to go to PE/HF than consultants.

While I kind of doubt non-MBB consulting is as bad as 1styearBanker makes it sound, there is a significant drop-off after 3rd.

11/13/15

As for the question you asked, there's no real way to rank them. I put a bit of a description below.

McK - Great place to be from, but not the greatest place to work. They're huge and have a huge network of people that can help you down the road. At the same time, their culture is very forward focused and this leads to a less community-based atmosphere. I actually ended up turning them down because of this - they were 'up or out' to the extreme and focused way less on their people than other firms.

Bain - Great place to be. Their culture is really youth-centric (average age is 28 or so), and they really spend time focusing on their ACs/Consultants. They're clearly the most entrepreneurial of the bunch, and this is reflected in a fun, fast paced culture and helps them achieve really quick growth worldwide. Take this all with a grain of salt, as I'm a bit biased here.

BCG - There's nothing bad that can be said about BCG in comparison to the two above. They're really focused on getting smart people and using them to identify the core drivers behind what they do. To that end, they tend to have a very academic feel and hire a lot of dorks (in the absolute best sense of the word - I'm a huge one). They also have done really well in the recession and are looking to hire a lot of people this fall/spring.

Booz & Co. - A big step down from MBB is Booz. The culture seems a good bit more restrictive and their name is definitely seen as highly as the above.

LEK - Small company that is great if you're interested in PE (and don't get MBB). They do a lot of short cases and have some great people, but they are a clear step down as well. They also do focus on work/life balance and give you a pretty decent amount of time off. Also a very young firm.

Accenture - Now we're moving out of the generalist practices and more into industry-specific. Accenure is huge and is great at IT/Engineering but doesn't give you a very wide skillset. They have a strategy practice, but it's not that competitive with MBB. I really don't have all the info here, so any additions would be good.

Deloitte - Same boat as Accenture. Deloitte is a huge company (seriously gargantuan) and has tons of different focal areas. They do some generalist stuff and a lot of specific stuff, but their culture is really impossible to characterize with over 150k employees.

BAH - Does a lot of government work, but I really don't know what else.

That's it. I'm out of info. I'd love to hear about the others if anyone knows them. Also, if I'm wrong on anything here please let me know.

11/13/15

I was wondering if anyone has any info or thoughts on Deloitte for strategy and operations right out of undergrad (generalist)--I have an offer from them, and am trying to decide whether to take it or not.

11/13/15
Paper:

I was wondering if anyone has any info or thoughts on Deloitte for strategy and operations right out of undergrad (generalist)--I have an offer from them, and am trying to decide whether to take it or not.

when people ask a question such as this they should also list out other offers

if you have a McKinsey offer ofcourse you shouldn't take the Deloitte one

but if you have no job then its not a bad opportunity

i'd say Deloitte strategy/ops is below MBB but better than Accenture

11/13/15

Thanks,
As of now, I offers from Deloitte, RBC Captial Markets, and NERA.

11/13/15
Paper:

Thanks,
As of now, I offers from Deloitte, RBC Captial Markets, and NERA.

I think I'll answer your Q with a Q: Do you want to do management consulting, banking, or economic consulting?

11/13/15
chron3k:
Paper:

Thanks,
As of now, I offers from Deloitte, RBC Captial Markets, and NERA.

I think I'll answer your Q with a Q: Do you want to do management consulting, banking, or economic consulting?

That is a very good question to answer with In truth, though, each has a lot of aspects that appeal to me and I could see myself taking each path. I more curious what you guys think, and what you would do and why.

11/13/15

Alright fellas, let's cut the crap on consulting v banking. Here's the bottom line:

1) Selectivity
M/B/B vs GS/MS/JPM - you're gonna find the exact same level of selectivity at each of these places at the analyst level. Probably a bit more at M/B/B out of undergrad given that consulting is typically more focused on the advanced degrees for partner track (e.g. MBAs, JDs, MAs, etc).

After that, good banking spots are probably easier to find, given that there are a lot more banks out there. You could get into a "consulting" firm such as Accenture, Deloitte, etc, but let's face it, those aren't true "management consulting" firms and are definitely more implementation / operations focused.

2) Work
This is should be straight forward. Bankers work in finance, very transactional, modeling/excel intensive. Skillsets and job description doesn't change very much from bank to bank, only the type/size of client base. At analyst levels, you will master modeling and to some extent financial accounting and analysis.

Consultants (at M/B/B) are problem-solvers. By definition the things you could be doing are very broad, anywhere from growth strategy to cost cutting to lean operations. In other words, analyst level consultants do a little bit of everything, depending on what the project calls for. So yes, yes, there is the opportunity to develop a wider skillset (if you call using your brain to solve a problem, making ppt slides, and maximizing travel rewards skillsets)

However, keep in mind though, it is very easy to be pigeonholed in consulting, as the nature of the work may put you in a string of similar projects, and you could just as easily be seen as a "operations strategy" consultant or a "marketing and sales" consultant.

3) Dropoff after top firms
Very easy distinction. At banks, working for a smaller firm doesn't have a huge impact on type of work, minimal impact on exit ops. Work is basically the same, clients still need the same investment banking services regardless of size.

Huge dropoff in consulting. There can only be so many people running around and giving "strategic advice". Consulting is a discretionary expenditure, and that pie is only so big. After M/B/B, no reason for the big companies to pay any other firms for strategic advice. Smaller companies simply can't afford consultants.

4) Exit ops
Bankers - easy story/path to PE/HF. Bankers have the right profile. Not sure about other corp roles, pretty sure corp dev or corp finance roles are a bit more common, but haven't seen much in the general corp space.

Consultants - PE/HF is do-able, have seen it happen, but not the norm and you have to have the right profile to get noticed (e.g. modeling experience, due dil projects, etc.) Transition to broader range of roles is definitely more the norm (e.g. corp strategy, bus development, other)

Hope that should sum things up.

11/13/15

Assuming you don't want to stay in any of the above long-term (correct me if I'm wrong), you have to ask yourself where you see yourself in the next 5-10 years. These jobs will set you up quite differently. Deloitte is a good path to b-school, general corp management, or perhaps to another consulting firm (I'm assuming that your offer is for the strategy/operations consulting role). RBC is banking, so it prepares well for more finance-related fields (HF's, PE, and VC's, as well as corp finance). Don't know too much about NERA. I think Deloitte gives the broadest range of possibilities, but if you really want to do something finance-y, I would take RBC.

11/13/15

Can't comment too much on banking or Deloitte.. but NERA will open doors to top b-schools after 2-4 years. Before then, you may be pidgeonholed into economic consulting... or something else really quant focused.

You can hit the reset button in bschool and enter a number of fields post-MBA.

Do you like crunching numbers in SAS or Stata? Do you like the idea of litigation, antitrust, monopolization, damages, liability, and working for law firms?

If the answer is no to either of those questions, I say go with banking or mgmt consulting. All 3 paths will get you to bschool (assuming you want to go)... it comes down to what you want to do for the 2-4 years prior to matriculating.

11/13/15

I AM biased (see link below) but I strongly recommend considering smaller consulting firms and their relative advantages, especially if you are making a transition from IB to Consulting.

At small firms the career path is more entrepreneurial, and a little riskier than working for a larger brand, but the potential is there for extremely fast-tracked career growth. Also, smaller firms tend to be more specialized, and some of these specialties (such as financial analytics) allow you to built on existing strength and experience you gained as an investment banker.

Respectfully,
Jaime Fitzgerald
President
Fitzgerald Analytics: Ranked by Consulting Magazine in 2010 as one of the Best Small Consulting Firms to Work For.

11/13/15

Thanks for taking the time to post Jaime. However, most smaller firms in consulting (from what I've seen on web sites and heard) look for people with former consulting experience. Agree/disagree?

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

11/13/15
Denver Monkeyannabe:

Thanks for taking the time to post Jaime. However, most smaller firms in consulting (from what I've seen on web sites and heard) look for people with former consulting experience. Agree/disagree?

Thanks and good questions for sure. Agree that many smaller firms do ascribe more value to prior consulting experience, mostly because they don't have as much time and resources to train staff. However there are plenty of exceptions, people who have made the transition with success, including several who work for me today.

So yes, I think that's part of the "bar" people need to clear to make the switch, and it's probably a bit higher for smaller firms, although it's also a consideration with even the larger firms.

Hope that is helpful.

11/13/15

Dude, just do what you want to do. If you want to do consulting, then do consulting. If not, don't. If you have a Deloitte vs. Goldman Sachs offer but you hate IB, then you're better of at Deloitte no matter what some douchebag thinks about 'prestige rankings'. The ten on the link you provided all will provide you with fine exit-opps (some better than others). Rather than asking a bunch of people who don't know shit about any of these firms, actually go find and talk to people who currently work there.

11/13/15

wtf is that website?

11/13/15

Is the drop-off as mentioned repeatedly on this discussion seriously that great after M/B/B? I have interviewed with Bain, McKinsey, OW, LEK, and frankly while I know reputation wise Mck and Bain are higher than the other 2, the quality of their work, offices, everything seemed so comparable. And as for compensation, OW pays more than any of them.

So would like to hear an explanation for why people think the 'drop off' is so high. I think 1styearbanker has spoken like a banker, saying that "don't bother if you don't get MBB"...that's like saying "don't bother if you don't get Goldman Sachs"...

11/13/15
bbjhva:

Is the drop-off as mentioned repeatedly on this discussion seriously that great after M/B/B? I have interviewed with Bain, McKinsey, OW, LEK, and frankly while I know reputation wise Mck and Bain are higher than the other 2, the quality of their work, offices, everything seemed so comparable. And as for compensation, OW pays more than any of them.

So would like to hear an explanation for why people think the 'drop off' is so high. I think 1styearbanker has spoken like a banker, saying that "don't bother if you don't get MBB"...that's like saying "don't bother if you don't get Goldman Sachs"...

The drop-off is tiny, and only relevant for 1st/2nd year consultants.

The key advantage of MBB is brand, which is useful for jumping ship pre-MBA. As a result, MBB have a better acceptance rate on undergraduate offers.

However, at a manager level you don't choose between MBB and OW, LEK, Monitor etc. based on brand. You choose based on opportunities, comp, niche areas of expertise. As a result, in certain sectors/geographies MBB are worse than many "2nd tier" firms.

And my opinion is that ultimately managers/partners drive the quality of a firm's work, not the 1st/2nd year consultants. Hence the marginal difference.

11/13/15

McKinsey is top only, Bain is versatile, BCG is power bottom. I hope to see them in an Eiffel Tower soon.

11/13/15

In the end, they are all phenomonal places to start ones career. Despite what anyone may say on this forum, MBB + OW/Booz/LEK/Deloitte Strat are equally hard to break in. It all comes down to several intangibles. For example, I interviewed at several at MBB and "Second tier" places and only recieved offers from MBB but not the others.

Regardless where you go work, everyone at these firms are equally smart. Don't read to much into the "rankings" and prestige thing ;-).

11/13/15
consultingwiz07:

In the end, they are all phenomonal places to start ones career. Despite what anyone may say on this forum, MBB + OW/Booz/LEK/Deloitte Strat are equally hard to break in. It all comes down to several intangibles. For example, I interviewed at several at MBB and "Second tier" places and only recieved offers from MBB but not the others.

Regardless where you go work, everyone at these firms are equally smart. Don't read to much into the "rankings" and prestige thing ;-).

Totally agree, I find the caliber of people in any of the top consulting firms very comparable.

11/13/15

where does everyone think PwC, ey and navigant stack up?

11/13/15

I'm going to give ordering a shot.

This is in terms of prestige (but take this with a grain of salt):
1. McK
2/3. Bain/BCG
4. Booz
5. Monitor
6. AT Kearney
7. BAH
8. LEK
9. Deloitte
10. Accenture

Overall best places to work, though, it goes Bain, BCG, and then McKinsey.

11/13/15
randombetch:

Overall best places to work, though, it goes Bain, BCG, and then McKinsey.

Why is Bain a better place to work than McKinsey, in your opinion?

11/13/15
persimmon:
randombetch:

Overall best places to work, though, it goes Bain, BCG, and then McKinsey.

Why is Bain a better place to work than McKinsey, in your opinion?

McK - hard working people, really driven people. They end up expecting you to spend a lot more time traveling and working than Bain/BCG - expect 70 hour work weeks.

Bain - really collegiate atmosphere, casual Fridays, everyone seems to be really friendly and nice... Very collaborative spirit and known to be the best among MBB about travel requirements (on average, you're gone 2-3 days a week vs 4-5 in other firms).

11/13/15
randombetch:

I'm going to give ordering a shot.

This is in terms of prestige (but take this with a grain of salt):
1. McK
2/3. Bain/BCG
4. Booz
5. Monitor
6. AT Kearney
7. BAH
8. LEK
9. Deloitte
10. Accenture

Overall best places to work, though, it goes Bain, BCG, and then McKinsey.

Shouldn't Oliver Wyman be up there? If you check various rankings (ie Vault) you can see that it's gaining prestige every year at a considerable rate. I even dare to say that not long from now it could be really close to MBB in terms of prestige...

11/13/15
mrman90:
randombetch:

I'm going to give ordering a shot.

This is in terms of prestige (but take this with a grain of salt):
1. McK
2/3. Bain/BCG
4. Booz
5. Monitor
6. AT Kearney
7. BAH
8. LEK
9. Deloitte
10. Accenture

Overall best places to work, though, it goes Bain, BCG, and then McKinsey.

Shouldn't Oliver Wyman be up there? If you check various rankings (ie Vault) you can see that it's gaining prestige every year at a considerable rate. I even dare to say that not long from now it could be really close to MBB in terms of prestige...

Definitely OW deserves to be either 4th or 5th (OW FS is definitely 4th), but it wasn't on the list that OP linked us to...

11/13/15
randombetch:

I'm going to give ordering a shot.

This is in terms of prestige (but take this with a grain of salt):
1. McK
2/3. Bain/BCG
4. Booz
5. Monitor
6. AT Kearney
7. BAH
8. LEK
9. Deloitte
10. Accenture

Overall best places to work, though, it goes Bain, BCG, and then McKinsey.

you sure about kearney? i know they used to be a top firm, but haven't they been on the decline for some time? does someone care to make a top 25 list based off opinion...not vault.

10/2/16

There are a lot of outdated views in this discussion. A major one is, that Monitor is now the strategy practice of Deloitte - called Monitor Deloitte. This happened about 3 years ago (!) I would argue that Monitor is the one player in the industry with focuses most on strategy work - operations work is done by Deloitte Consulting. This is a major difference to MB (and to some extent Bain) where you will be working on all kinds of projects.
Also, do not forget that MB (and again only to some extent Bain) are expanding their offerings into non-strategy work. Less that 1/3 of McK projects are now strategy according to themselves.
MBB is still the top in a global perspective but Monitor Deloitte with the backing of Deloitte Consulting for ops and tech are rapidly catching up!

10/2/16

Yes, MB is going into operations much more, and yes, Monitor does a lot of strategy; but you'd have to ask yourself if strategy and operations means the same at MBB as at other players, such as the Big D. I don't think so, and many others think so too. The ops work at MBB often has a much more strategy character than at others. That's also why we're increasingly hired for ops work. For insteance, to do top quality PMI work you need a strategy framework as well, and need people who can actually handle that to set-up and merge business units in the right way.

10/2/16

From my experience the difference used to be there. If the gap is completely closed I cannot tell for all markets. But obviously a company like Monitor Deloitte and the rest of Deloitte has the same strategic capabilities within say PMI as MBB. But probably a deeper operational expertise than MBB. This may also be a fact of the past, however :) It basically takes a while for a skill to be recognised in the market and be part of a companies reputation.

11/13/15

1/2/3 M/B/B - Honestly just pick em
4) Booz
5 / 6 / 7 / 8 Monitor, LEK, Parthenon, OW
9) Deloite (only if were counting S&O)
10) ATK
11) Accenture

Obviously with a grain of salt. And vault is terrible, don't believe that crap

11/13/15

Im obviously biased here, but I think the quality of our work and the engagements we bid on are on par with monitor/Parthenon etc.

-MBP

11/13/15

In terms of best places to work, BCG made #2 of all US companies on the most recent Fortune list. Maybe Bain is a better place to work if you're 23, but if you're past that initial level or your career, BCG may be a better environment?

Life, liberty and the pursuit of Starwood Points

11/13/15

Is Booz really above the other Tier 2 companies like LEK/OW/Monitor? Somehow, that's not the impression I've had. If anything, I thought OW might be a slight cut above other Tier 2s, though I do know Monitor/Parthenon also have incredibly bright people.

11/13/15
bbjhva:

Is Booz really above the other Tier 2 companies like LEK/OW/Monitor? Somehow, that's not the impression I've had. If anything, I thought OW might be a slight cut above other Tier 2s, though I do know Monitor/Parthenon also have incredibly bright people.

I completely agree. Since OW's big merger in 2007 it has been seriously positioning itself closer to MBB...

11/13/15
mrman90:
bbjhva:

Is Booz really above the other Tier 2 companies like LEK/OW/Monitor? Somehow, that's not the impression I've had. If anything, I thought OW might be a slight cut above other Tier 2s, though I do know Monitor/Parthenon also have incredibly bright people.

I completely agree. Since OW's big merger in 2007 it has been seriously positioning itself closer to MBB...

True, OW probably takes the cake over LEK/Monitor, but it's hard to say for Booz.

You may not hear as much about Booz compared to OW, but they definitely seem to be a place to be if you want true strategy work.

Talking to people from Booz, it sounds like a big number of projects in the US focus on Booz's big thing: capabilities driven strategy: http://www.booz.com/global/home/what_we_think/cds_....

Seems like high level strategy to me. Not to take anything away from OW; just saying that Booz, while a quieter firm (except in terms of thought leadership - they are definitely present there), definitely does what is considered to be desirable, high level work.

Proboscis

11/13/15

OW are not really close to MBB though, their FS practice is great but they do a lot less pure strategy work and much more risk than they care to admit.

11/13/15
Muuuk:

OW are not really close to MBB though, their FS practice is great but they do a lot less pure strategy work and much more risk than they care to admit.

What does 'risk work' normally comprise of?

11/13/15
Muuuk:

OW are not really close to MBB though, their FS practice is great but they do a lot less pure strategy work and much more risk than they care to admit.

Still the number one choice for strategy in FS...

11/13/15

A lot of risk work is model and methodology review. There's also work in governance and regulation.

-MBP

11/13/15

That is something people at OW keep on saying, I'm yet to see supporting evidence. For the pure strategy work McKinsey seems to be the go-to guy.

11/13/15
Muuuk:

That is something people at OW keep on saying, I'm yet to see supporting evidence. For the pure strategy work McKinsey seems to be the go-to guy.

McK has greater FS revenues, but ironically that's because they do more non-strategy work. OW charges more and services more of the top 100 firms globally (~85). These aren't things you're ever going to see evidence for unless you're an FS consultant.

But ultimately things are pretty tight between McK and OW, and they're leagues ahead of everyone else. And as you rightly pointed out, they have different specialties within that. McK stronger reputation for cost work, OW for risk.

11/13/15

I don't want to hijack this thread but ProcineAviation, which do you think would be a better SA position: OW FS in NYC or McK in Stamford, CT (30 min north of NYC)? Right now I'm leaning toward OW FS due to location, focus on FS, and opportunity for advancement within the firm potentially as a FT but it is tough to turn down a name like McKinsey. Will I get "management and strategy" experience at a firm as focused as OW FS?

Thanks in advance.

11/13/15

what about like an entry level job at a consulting firm that most people have never heard of? will you never be looked at for other "top" jobs in finance after 1-3 years of consulting?

11/13/15

Has anyone heard of Innosight? Seems to be mostly top Ivy people and former MBB consultants but I couldn't find many anecdotes about the firm.
http://Innosight.com/

11/13/15

It seems like LEK & Parthenon, for example, have no internship programs. Please let me know if there are other firms I should be applying to in my scenario....Also please do correct me if my previous assumption is incorrect and I should in fact be applying to big 4 mercer Accenture ibm etc.

11/13/15

Oliver Wyman + Oliver Wyman FS would be worth applying to. Does Booz do summer internships?

I'd probably take a top tier bank over any of the above, though.

11/13/15

Booz recruited on campus for summer internships at my school - I was surprised, but definitely not complaining, haha. I had a first round with them this morning. Oliver Wyman also came but they didnt even give me a first round interview although I have gotten to final rounds with McKinsey. Go figure...

Any other names? Or insight upon how MBB views ibanking summer internships?

11/13/15

McKinsey is the top consulting firm in the US. Some other top firms are BCG, Deloitte, and Mercer.

11/13/15

I've heard Deloitte/Mercer aren't worth applying to since Deloitte does little strat work and Mercer pigeonholes you into HR consulting. & If i get McKinsey this is obviously a moot point but i want to cover my bases and apply to all firms worth considering over bb ibanks (not GS, ms, but JPM/baml level)

11/13/15

Edit: Ok, so I totally misread you post the first time. You're right to think that MBB does look more favorably on BBs than lower consulting firms. This is mainly because they look down on most other consulting firms. Deloitte Consulting is definitely a place to avoid if you want to come to MBB. It is an absolute joke of a firm. The people who end up there are talentless folk who will never be able to achieve anything more than mediocrity in their lives. If you read this forum, Piper Jaffray gets a lot of crap from the banking people. Well Deloitte gets the same kind of crap from the consulting folks, except that this actually happens in the real world from the mouths of real consultants and not just a bunch of college juniors.

11/13/15

Deloitte is top, just check vault.

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We are excited to formally extend to you an offer to join Bank of Ameria

11/13/15

yeah, i really dont want to do consulting at big 4/Deloitte that seems like mind numbering operations work. Any other places to apply though past MBB, Booz, Monitor, Oliver Wyman?

11/13/15

If you want to do MBB, only apply MBB. It's really difficult to go from lower-tier consulting to MBB (unless this internship is your sophomore year). Realistically, you don't need any experience to get MBB offers (I got all 2 out of 3 with no internship to speak of), but it is key that you don't have bad/negative experience such as lower-tier consulting. IB/PE/VC internships are preferable to OW/Monitor/Booz/Big4/nothing.

11/13/15

I'm still a freshman in college and I was hoping someone could clear this up for me. I'm hoping to end up at MBB and I've been trying to figure out whether I should focus on getting consulting internships vs. finance(IB/PE/VC/PWM) internships. I thought that getting an internship at one of the lower consulting firms(Booz/Monitor/Deloitte) would give me a leg up since I would have experience in the field. Basically I'm wondering whether Sparticus' claim that I should go for finance internships rather than lower tier consulting firms is true? It seems a bit strange to take a SA position over a consulting internship especially if I want to show MBB that I'm actually interested in consulting.

Thanks

11/13/15

i get the sense lower tier consulting, as in past MBB and elite boutiques, has very little if any prestige

11/13/15
afalcon10:

i get the sense lower tier consulting, as in past MBB and elite boutiques, has very little if any prestige

Do you mean Monitor\LEK\Parthenon when you say elite boutiques?

11/13/15

that's what I had in mind. and LEK and Parthenon dont even have internships...

11/13/15

LIke I said, my post only really applied to Junior-year internships. Lower-tier consulting is fine for freshman or sophomore years (though banking may look better), but Junior year is when it actually matters.

11/13/15

Some of you guys are absolutely fucking clueless.

11/13/15
PorcineAviation:

Some of you guys are absolutely fucking clueless.

agreed

i did not have banking BB or consulting internships

ended up with MBB FT offer

11/13/15

so?

11/13/15

yikes, why u MBB folk get so offended when compared with similar firms? don't like being mentioned in the same breath?

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We are excited to formally extend to you an offer to join Bank of Ameria

11/13/15

lol...I'm not really sure what's going on. PorcineAviation are you talking about my posts or the posts regarding the consulting vs. finance internships? Also wanted to ask 7S, what did you do to get noticed by MBB considering you didn't have banking or consulting internships?