When GPA Matters
GPA really doesn’t matter. That’s the long and the short of it. Neither does size, as a matter of fact.
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Would love to hear more thoughts from those who have been in a recruiting capacity. Personally, I subscribe to the belief that experience matters more than GPA. The only utility of having a high GPA is to get you to a networking call or past the resume screen. For later interview rounds, what matters is how you perform, which is usually a function of 1) how well you've prepared for behaviorals/technicals and 2) your inventory of prior work experience that you draw upon to answer the behaviorals.
It also depends on the firm and culture. At some places, people will look at a 3.98 and think you're a tryhard no-fun nerd. At others, you'll be respected. It's interesting you say this coming from IB, which usually is in the former camp (after all, you spend many hours with your coworkers, so you really need to make sure they're fun and normal people to be around). From what I've seen, it's usually some select group of elite buyside shops that tend to place more emphasis on undergraduate academic achievement.
Agree with all your points here. The entire premise of my post was really getting past resume screen / getting a networking call (as you mentioned). I don’t think GPA should ever tip the scale against intangible factors (fit, competency) or experience. I’ll get on the phone with a 3.98, but if they’re entirely inept socially, have no problem not referring them.
but, GPA is important for getting in the door, and that’s often the hardest part about banking internships.
additional food for thought: GPA seems important to HH in the recruiting process (have heard 3.8+ is best)
Is gpa really that important for PE on-cycle/HHs? Would a 3.6 be a real issue then if ur coming from a top group with top notch deal flow?
I don't get why people perpetuate the bullshit myth that people with 4.0s are instantly seen as nerdy/tryhards. I've never come across anyone IRL who has agreed with this. I'll use the GPA strictly as a gauge of work ethic / academic prowess, not for their personality. Have I hopped on the phone with a 4.0 kid who turned out to be a doorknob? Yes. But I made that decision only after speaking to them. When I see 4.0s who are in frats or have big club commitments, they are usually the best of both worlds.
Interesting observations. It's probably important to differentiate between majors. Most people I know who have a 4.0 in a hard science are very different than the 4.0 medieval history majors.
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Yeah agree here. The single most important thing is who you know and where you went to school (the former more than the latter each year out from graduation).
a high GPA is not going to beat out a kid with a warm referral
I heard GPA/School is a big factor in MF PE recruiting out of IB. I have a 3.6 from a T20 school but in GS TMT, will this 3.6 harm me for PE recruiting?
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Being that you are an analyst, has not managed anyone yet, and is still in school mode, you will change your mind when you manage a 3.9 GPA subordinate and they are terrible. You will realize that skill and aptitude is way more important than school and GPA. In fact most these target schools offer an irrelevant and questionable education. When that 4.0 Harvard grad Poli Sci major can not master financial models and struggles with excel, you will change your mind. Training someone from scratch when you have other things to do is a pain in the ass. As someone who worked in BB and managed people, hiring is very nuanced. You really have to carefully look at the resume through skill set, interest (you do not want your underlings to leave you after 3 months), personality etc. The hiring process at the banks and the buyside firms is severely flawed. You guys have been brainwashed by this process. If google can hire a high school dropout that proved that they have the skills, so can investment banks. Where you went to school just shows that you were privileged, obedient, gunner/tryhard, and someone who did not have testing anxiety at the age of 16. Banks are hiring adults not teenagers.
GPA might be high because somebody is smart or because they're a hardo virgin with no life or interests. GPA might be low because somebody is dumb or because they went to school that has tough scoring rules (some schools in Europe only give American-converted A to like 10% of the class, Indian and Chinese schools are cutthroat) and majored in tough major or focused on building relationships and working, not realizing the importance of a perfect GPA.
Thanks for sharing!
Just curious, I assume the only way you can see GPA on a cold email is if they send you their resume when reaching out.
But I thought it was bad practice to attach your resume to a cold email?
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Always attach a resume. I will never respond to anything without a resume, for all I know you have a 2.6 GPA and I literally cannot help you
Even when it's a for genuine informational interview and not a "give me a job pls" call? Just curious bc I'm still trying to network while waiting to start FT
Sorry, I’ve just been going through some of these forums and keep seeing GPA posts pop up.
I for one actually do have a literal 2.6 GPA and ended up with the job of my dreams at a prop trading firm (options market making) I believe the top comment says it best. GPA can get your foot in the door in terms of a resume, coffee chat, insight week program etc.
However, there are other things that can get you in the door as well - leadership/entrepreneurial ventures and to a lesser degree some really unique extracurriculars/interests (poker/chess pro). I was able to network my way into a summer intern seat that converted to a full-time and it wasn’t even close - I was told I was the top performing intern and made it right on the exact desk I wanted. My 2.6 GPA doesn’t make me seem like I’d be a winner there, but I’m sure all of my EC/Leadership + Chess Grandmaster ranking did show something unique and special to get my foot in the door. To be frank I chose a shitty major and had no interest nor care in finishing it. I knew I could still break in because I was a STEM major but I don’t put my GPA on resumes anymore nor did I do it when recruiting.
Gotta ask, do gpa cut offs change for diversity programs?
No MS please. It’s a genuine question.
Know first hand a few diversity candidates get MF with sub 3.5 GPA. Take it as you will, just adding a few data points.
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Hmm that's odd because at my MF not a single applicant I spoke to (round after initial screens) had below a 3.8
I recruited with 4.0 at a semi-target and the process was much easier than expected so this post is def on point
Yeah, while I would agree with the general sentiment that we should put less weight on GPA, I think coming from a semi-target with a 3.9+ made recruiting significantly easier and I barely had to network. I think this is more important for internships because many kids have little relevant experience than it is for full-time.
GPA is a great predictor of how someone performs in school. But Investment Banking is not school. You don’t get a predictable syllabus of when your deals are. You don’t get weeks to study before having to perform. You can’t find answers to your questions about deliverables on quizlet. Sure, there are some similarities like responsibility, ability to follow through, but I argue that prior experience is a far better indicator of whether someone is going to be competent at the job. For a bunch of people who are supposedly experts at relative valuation, GPA is a shitty comp for ability to do the work.
If we’re going to gatekeep IB using totally uncorrelated metrics, I’d prefer to use their 40 time. At least they’ll be getting from point A to B quickly.
Yup, love it. Good shit. People on here are way way way too horny for GPAs lol. They all need to relax and beat one off, fucking psychos on here dude
agreed. My uncle has a engineering firm and says the people with super high GPA's are weirdos and they are trying to loose the reputation of being a bunch of weird math nerds.
The obsession with GPA is really frustrating. Very few people seem to understand the variation in GPA depending on school and major. At P the average GPA for Econ major at graduation is 3.3. With the GPA obsession it looks like it’s better to go to a semi target and get a 3.9.
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Paper is paper. Networking is EQ and ability. If you're not networking / connecting, then you better have a stellar resume including high GPA from a good school. If you've done a good job of networking, you'll overcome a lot.
I'm not in banking but essentially that's how life works in most fields that don't require a specific skillset, degree (think law, medicine).
Fuck off dude. Anything above a 3.6 is fine, you need to relax lol
I think this is a case where Goodhart's law applies: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure".
Screening by GPA is biased toward a pool of risk-averse candidates with a good work ethic. Personally, I'd be fine with a candidate that came in with a sub 3.5 if they proved that they really pushed themselves to their limits, accepted some failures along the way, but squeezed every bit of utility they could out of their 4 years (or more).
This GPA screening method just gets more competitive over time, as those who make the cut will enforce stricter guidelines for future candidates. Let's be real, when we size up a candidate we're indirectly comparing ourselves to them. So the survivors who played the game and propped up their GPA will judge candidates similarly going forward.
so basically first thing you look at is ( could they afford a super expensive school or were willing to take out an enormous amount of debt learning everything they could of at a cheaper place because that's the only way i know how to evaluate people) and did they spend a enormous amount of time memorizing for test as said school.
Yea bc the only reason people get into target schools is bc they have rich families or bc they are willing to take on huge debt.
Oh and why wouldn't you want someone who was willing to dedicate an enormous amount of time preparing for tests over someone who didn't?
Its not the only reason but if you dont have a rich family you have to take on massive debt and as much as it hurts some people here, a lot of the people i meet from state schools that have high GPA's are just as intelligent and knowledgeable on there subjects as someone who has a high GPA from Harvard.
Its not that i wouldnt want them for that reason but its not a good way to evaluate someone all it shows is they are willing to put massive time towards doing very basic task which i suppose would be fine for a analyst but if you want them to build a long term career i would rather have them show more and say a modeling test or some other evaluation i think would better prove this.
I’ll tack on here - major and school also play a role in how someone’s GPA will be interpreted. Coming from a non-target with a less than stellar business school, you needed to be above a 3.8 or people knew you were either dicking around or couldn’t handle basic finance and econ classes. Counteracting that was lower GPA expectations for STEM majors like engineering, CS, or math (think ~3.5+).
Probably overthinking but what are some GPA cutoffs for non-diversity at EB IB SAs? Are any 3.8? Currently a 3.7 at a target, Indian male. Sophomore with 1 PE and 1 IB internship. Hoping I will make it past resume screens.
you're fucked
Obsessing over GPA to the point of insanity isn't worth it, but in my experience, a very high GPA can overcome some other deficiencies in your application. Had both banking and consulting interviews in college, and I can be sure my 4.00 got my foot in the door for many of them. Not to mention some interviewers would explicitly point out the GPA in the interview as some sort of hint as to why I made it there lol. But if everything else in your application is stellar, a perfect GPA isn't necessary in the slightest.
Honestly in my interviews, they didn't really seem to care about it. More about who I was as a person.
It’s more that GPA gets you in the door to the interview in the first place
True.
monkey brain post
Employers will also look at your program/degree... A 3.2 in Engineering is not as bad as a 3.2 in English.
what’s a good GPA for a finance major?
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3.5 GPA checking in. Currently at an EB and joining a MF next year. Non-diversity male. You will be fine. Just nail the interviews (network to get past first screen) and try to develop a good rapport with everyone you speak with.
Bless
How/when did you network? Also curious if your GPA ever came up in an interview. Do you think the only reason why you got MF interviews was because you networked? In a similar spot rn
I thought he was talking about networking for SA. I don’t think networking for PE works/helps, no?
I guess I was subconsciously thinking about networking in the context of the IB process in my original post, but it applies to both in slightly different ways.
I also always heard that networking doesn’t help for PE, but I feel like it definitely plays a role in the process, especially if expanding “networking” to include developing relationships with the headhunters.
Basically, I came to think of PE recruiting as an exercise in momentum building with all the stakeholders, and the social “networking” piece of that can tilt the process in your favor. I think the most important things to recognize about process logistics are:
So in that context, I reached out to people at firms I was interested in over the summer (before eventual fall on-cycle), made sure I was well-prepared for the conversations, and then left it such that I would stay in touch as the process eventually started to near. I reached back to each them as talk got going about on-cycle approaching (right as headhunters reached out) to reaffirm my interest in being included in a process with the firm, flag that I was starting to chat with headhunters, etc.
Really try to crush the headhunter calls (and fill out pre-screening surveys/questionnaires thoroughly and thoughtfully). I feel like there are rare times everyone can think back to as like really great conversations or interactions where you feel like you really developed a solid rapport with the other person. That was my goal with each of the headhunter calls. I researched all my headhunters pre-call, noting things to try to touch on or weave in. Also figured out which of my older friends they might’ve successfully placed in prior years and incorporated that. I also researched each headhunting firm’s clients before each call, and for any of their client firms that I’d networked with, I was sure to mention that I’d already “had a great conversation with X at Y for Z team,” etc.
I got in front of any GPA questions. I had an upward academic trend (obviously your messaging approach might differ if trend is different), so when I got to the college piece of the general “tell me about yourself” block up front, I worked in a quick comment about wishing GPA were a bit higher, but that it was being brought down due to a particularly challenging transition to college, which was subsequently offset by X, Y, Z performance in later years and overshadowed by A, B, C extracurricular involvement/achievements (and thus quickly launched into “college” component of my response to “tell me your story”). I think the important thing here is to not make a big deal out of this/seem too serious or unconfident. I think this was effective for me because I was really brief, addressed it head on, was candid so that it wasn’t an elephant in the room, and confidently set the tone with all the headhunters that I didn’t expect this should be an issue in my processes. Then, I felt like I could use the rest of my college explanation and banking rundown to convince them that my GPA should indeed not be an issue (and by extension that based on the other facets of our conversation/my candidacy, they should recommend me to their clients/pass along my resume). I think my headhunter calls went quite well, they were very receptive/encouraging on the gpa front, and I ended up getting several interviews through each of them.
To close the loop on networking, I’ll say that I definitely had better interview conversion with the firms I networked with. In the spirit of the “momentum” comment, I think it was especially helpful to press on both ends (headhunter and direct networking) and then link them (mention to headhunter relevant networking call (client firm) and mention to internal person relevant headhunter conversation). I received a “coffee chat” (these are more “interview” than “networking”) with every firm I did this for. Also encourage you to try to turn each conversation into another one (“would love to chat with more people on the team” etc.). This also enables you to tell headhunters about more conversations. You want to build your own momentum as an in-demand candidate in the minds of the headhunters. You want them to view you as an asset, and you want them to feel like they would be remiss to leave you out of certain processes (in general, and in the minds of their clients if effectively networked and communicated). Simultaneously, you want all the people you talked with at every firm to actually be looking out for your name in a resume pile, on initial lists from headhunters, etc. Good luck!
Are u in a top group and/or top target school? Was the 3.5 ever an issue when having headhunter calls?
Yeah I went to a target, but not top target (think Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth, etc.). Group is strong and usually places well, which I think helped. Can look at above reply for more detail, but basically, the headhunters didn't make an issue of it at all. I incorporated comment about gpa into "your background" part of interview, said I hoped it wouldn't be an issue but that I was happy to discuss it further, and then moved on. Some made affirmative comments that it shouldn't be a hindrance, and others didn't address it at all.
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GPA is on the your resume for life, it matters 10 years later bc people see the number, and judge you regardless of other things.
this is sarcastic right?
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