When I entered college, I was excited about doing Big 4 accounting, putting in my time, leaving to industry or opening up my own CPA practice and living nice on 100-150k a year with my eventual family.
Fast forward to me discovering WSO: Gained great information and resources on anything and everything finance related, including great first hand experience from certain members, as well as FANTASTIC tips that really transformed my resume into an actual competitive one.
However, I'm now finding myself never satisfied with my career that hasnt even started. I see people talking about 300-400k PE/ER/HF offers and know that I will likely never touch this, even if I get to my goal of entering corporate development.
WSO, you have ru-eened (Stewie voice) my concept of what a cushy salary and lifestyle is!
If you need anything, I'll be in my room sulking about my $50k starting salary.
-Art Vandelay
Man speaks the truth. Must remember that WSO =/= reality.
Whatever you did before WSO, THAT's what ruined you.
You took that out of context. I'm not SUPER DUPER excited about being in Big 4 audit. I'm excited about the fact that I'll have (or at least compared to the vast majority of people) a comfortable salary after I put in my time with the Big 4.
Very true. The problem that I'm having is, everyone makes that out to be a bad thing. Before I started spending time on his site the thought of a $200k salary was awesome. Now that I realize that $200k would probably be my absolute upper limit, I think, "ehhh, its an ok salary I guess"
I definitely am not one to lack motivation in anything I do, and motivation to do well in your career by seeing others doing better is a great thing. I'm just trying to get back to the frame of mind I had before I started reading things like "I got a DECENT 400k base+bonuses offer from X."
Realistically, even if most of us don't end up at the megafund of our dreams, or being millionaire entrepreneurs, or are just guys like me looking to go into Big 4 accounting --> corporate finance or something, those of us who work hard and aren't unmotivated idiots will end up in the top 5% of earners in the country, and I am trying to get myself back to realizing that.
This is too true. Most people just giggle and then realize why people shouldn't talk about money.
Chin up, brosky. So many people spend their health gaining wealth, and then have to spend their wealth to regain their health.
Pusha T said it best: "Ask Steve Jobs, wealth don't buy health"
Hardest diss song ever
But now you're aware of this world of potential. I'd rather be aware and know where my ambition can go than to stay in a naive world. There's a reason why a lot of ambitious people are unhappy; they see what they can change in a tangible way. It becomes tougher the higher up you go, but eventually you reach the point when you realize you can literally change the world.
And that potential, that promise, is worth the unhappiness.
This.
True story. Fact of the matter is 95% of WSO users will never crack the $250,000 line.
95% of WSO users won't crack the $150,000 line.
This can't be real. -50K bananas??
.
WSO is just a whole different world. The worst is when people tak about networking. NOBODY I know at school networks outside of very accessible sources (like fraternity alumni or friends/family). Don't get me wrong, networking is extremely valuable and I wouldn't be going anywhere without it, but it bugs me how people on this site imply that you're going to be on food stamps if you don't network. You probably won't get an IBD job, but there are plenty of respectable jobs between IBD and the unemployment line.
This thread is pretty much a microcosm of what I'm talking about:(//www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/what-are-kids-at-non-targets-who-dont-ne…)
You need to realize that finance in NYC/WSO is a bubble and will distort your sense of reality. My peers in other industries are literally making fractions of what I am making. And I am not sitting here saying that in a negative way, I am just saying that you will always be able to find someone that is making more than you. You need to not let it affect you and keep in mind how well you may have it compared to the vast majority of people around you.
For example, my roommate is in finance as well and is one of the very few people who has been more successful than myself both in career progression and compensation since we graduated. I am constantly comparing myself to him and keeping myself motivated to go farther and push harder and not get complacent. But, at the same time I still force myself to step back every day and be grateful for the fact that I have been lucky and worked hard to get to the place that I am today, and that I am "doing better" (financially) than probably 99% of those my age.
So, use the bubble to your advantage. Use it to keep yourself motivated and to keep pushing yourself, but always step back and appreciate what you have and don't always be caught up in what you don't have. If you are happy and healthy, that's what matters.
Hope that helps.
Keep this in mind: even if you are the most successful hedge fund or private equity manager in the world, the guy who sells you your market data still has a higher net worth than you do. There will always be someone who makes/has more than you.
http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/
(it's Mike Bloomberg, by the way)
WSO is a source that gives great information, but a very narrow perspective. People who are driven will always shoot for the best, and society prods us into a certain path. Generally, top achievers will want to go into BB IBD or MBB because that's what is seen as paying the most, providing the best exit ops, and holding the most prestige. WSO is useful in giving perspective (e.g. to those accountants who complain about their 3 month busy seasons of 80 hour weeks), but it can also mess with your perspective. What you'll find is that those who succeed and follow the idealized GS IBD --> HBS MBA --> KKR PE also end up being dissatisfied in the end. What most of them always really wanted to be (whether they realized it or not) was an entrepreneur. The grass is always greener...
I think there are three things you have to balance in life: health, wealth, and relationships. Devoting all your resources to obtaining any one of your assets will leave you deficient in the others and very, very unhappy. Sometimes it's OK to forego the pursuit of one or two in favor of the other(s) for some limited period of time; this is what the investment bankers and management consultants are doing. The philosophy is to spend your twenties working hard, making money, and getting all the things you want, then settling down to have a relationship and a healthy lifestyle. On WSO you hear about the dreams of 7-figure salaries and bonuses on the buy-side, but you don't hear about all the people who took this route but forgot to ever rebalance their lives, then ended up divorced and miserable.
You have got to decide what is important to you, then don't back down from what you believe when others challenge you with their beliefs. If you believe that killing yourself in investment banking is what you need to do for a while to achieve your goals, don't back down when people tell you that you work too much. On the other side, if you don't think investment banking is worth the necessary sacrifices, don't let someone else make you dissatisfied with the choice you've made.
My faith and my family are the most important things in the world to me, so I prioritize my career accordingly. I respect the BB IBDers and how hard they work, but it's not for me. I'd be lying if I said I don't sometimes envy those who have chosen that route, but at the end of the day, I know what I want, and I know I've made the right decisions in my life. I would highly recommend reading this HBS commencement address from Clay Christensen - http://hbr.org/2010/07/how-will-you-measure-your-life/ar/1.
TL;DR read this: http://hbr.org/2010/07/how-will-you-measure-your-life/ar/1
Oh, I certainly feel more competitive now as well, not that competitiveness was something I need any more of. But as you said, my sense of reality is off. I sometimes have to check myself throughout the day when I'm worrying about not having a sufficient salary later in life.
I feel the same as OP. WSO also made me a shit-ton more competitive when it comes to progressing my career.
I wouldnt be where I am today without WSO and I'd probably have a completely different value system. At the same time, I absolutely know that my sense of reality is currently warped.
Looks like money is everything to you. For some it is not. Family should be everything
How many making 300-400k had free time when younger or have families etc. You sacrifice stuff to make more money. There is always a sacrifice
Nope. I think you missed the part of my point.
"However, I'm now finding myself never satisfied with my career that hasnt even started. I see people talking about 300-400k PE/ER/HF offers and know that I will likely never touch this, even if I get to my goal of entering corporate development.
WSO, you have ru-eened (Stewie voice) my concept of what a cushy salary and lifestyle is"
Go make $75-90K. Ask yourself, honestly, if you are happy at that point.
If yes, you have the option to continue to make more money, knowing that you are already internally-satisfied and unlikely to gain much emotional fulfillment through additional earnings.
If no, see a therapist. The guy who is sad and depressed when he's making $90K and driving a 3-series is likely to be more sad and more depressed making $300K and driving an Aston. There are few things as sad as a man with a Ferrari who is looking for something else to fill that void.
.
100% true.
The other day upon talking to a friend (not in finance) about quitting before bonus time (to cool down and pursue other goals) he asked, for the sake of the discussion, "what kind of money are we talking about here"... I realised the number is second priority. Most of us are privileged enough to have a job, reasonably well-paid (above most in the world, anyways), proper education/training and particularly goals and interests in life. We belong already to the selected few.
Keep working hard, exploring and enjoying what you do, balancing life's cornerstones (health, relationships, activity/profession/job and spirit) and checking your priorities.
You'll do fine, and take "benchmarks" more relaxed (and this site as well...). As someone said afore "you'll always find somebody who earns more than you".
OP, I feel for you. Once I was a typical 'girl next door' quite happy with whatever I got.
One day an Associate friend revealed his gulty pleasure - WSO to me. Since then, my soul has been corrupted by all the exaggerated materialism and elitism here. Kidding, kidding~ I've made great friends here who I sincerely believe are not douchebags or sluts in real life, but I guess simple things will never make me happy anymore.
Big 4 is a great training ground, but you should think about your exit strategy from Day 1.
My goal in this is make us all realize that even if we top out at 100k (and most of us will go further), we're still much better off than the overwhelming majority of America.
And yes, I havent even started at Big 4 yet and I'm already planning my exit.
I love WSO but I definitely think it has it's "downsides". For one, it makes you "overthink" your next step which could definitely be a problem. If everytime a position opens up, you question the exit opps/ prestige/ pay/ culture/ etc., you may never get started. That's not to say that when you finally do, you won't be better off because of it, but I'm really starting to think that sometimes you just gotta get the ball rolling and go from there. Kinda like those old single chicks that never found anyone because they're standards are absurd. Same thing, except these standards are created by monkeys on an anonymous forum instead of ourselves (herd mentality ftw).
Another thing is that you really have no idea who's writing what. It's easy to get frustrated when you read countless threads about "got interview at (insert some good place) need help" and wonder why you're not getting the same. Then again, you also have no idea who went to HYP, etc. While it's certainly cute to think everyone has the same opportunity regardless of school, it's really just not all that true. Point is, if you went to one of the top schools, blah blah other prestige whore shit blah- it'd be relatively stupid for me (read: most) to expect the same interest from places as you. Yet through your post, none of that shows. Just that you interviewed there. Just my $.02
tl;dr- Sometimes it's better to NOT think 10 steps ahead. Alot of times you are comparing apples and oranges and don't even realize it.
3-400k isn't rich at all. thats upper middle class and private colleges. inb4 shitstorm of income statistics putting $400k in the 98th percentile. it's still not that much even if it's better than 98 percent of the country. 400k in new york is like 300k in chicago and 200k anywhere else. it's a nice house in the suburbs, a pool and a BMW and a decent retirement plan. nothing more. no sprawling hamptons estate, no gold plated toilet seat, no prestige whatsoever.
and $150k at age 30 is garbage. you cannot send your kids to private school and are barely saving for retirement unless you live in north dakota.
if you are in finance that's terrible. anything else and it's OK. education in and of itself is completely pointless, the only thing that matters are the networks you build from it, so it depends on how focused you are on that. also you might live in an area with shitty public schools and want to keep your kids out of them.
my point still stands about the $300k range and I would extend that to 500k. if you are making that much chances are you live in a very high cost of living area.
do any of you actually believe you can afford a ferrari on a $400,000 salary? that's a year of pre-tax earnings gone. if you have kids, not a fucking chance.
if you guys think 300 grand is a lot go be an airline pilot. you'll work half the hours you work in finance, and not have to live in the shithole known as NYC.
Why is going to a private school absolutely necessary? I know kids that went to public schools, got into Wharton/other top tier ivies or Stanford/MIT/Duke, etc. and are now working at places like MS M&A, BX, Hedge Funds, etc.
yeah i know, it's definitely not a requirement to go to a private HS to go to a top tier school. but it certainly doesnt hurt. and at super elite prep schools, your network can be nearly as important as your college network. plus like i said, private schools are a safe haven from the riff raff that attend public schools if you're in a less than ideal school district.
goldmanballsachs, if you don't care about being rich then why are you on this forum and interested in finance? if you want to drive a camry when you're 65 then be an electrician. the whole point of working 100 hour weeks and getting constantly shit on is to get paid A LOT.
if 200k is your idea of a good salary then thats fine, but there are much, much easier ways to get there.
I wasn't aware the yard stick for justifying a "terrible" salary was whether or not you could buy a Ferrari, lol
Two Biggie quotes:
I rob and steal\Because that money got that whip appeal
Mo' money mo' problems.
In expectation Biggie is usually correct
ChrisHansen, chill. A lot of us here aren't solely motivated by money. 400k a year is a lot of money at any age. Life isn't solely about money and I feel bad for you if you're that vein. Money definitely matters, but it's not the end all and be all of happiness.
I'm interested in trading and the markets because I think it's fascinating, not because I'm trying to become a billionaire.
Money is important, sure. It is a mean of financing your living and wishes, saving for the future and unforeseen and mean for helping family/friends and others in need.
Money alone however is not the motivation for some of us. It should be a consequence (by product?) of doing somenthing meaningful you are interested in and motivated about.
400k p.a. is in my opinion a lot of money, and would more than satisfy most people...but again, each one has his/her own standards
Am I seriously the only one here who agreed with the general logic of ChrisHansen's post?
Given the $250k I spent in tuition, the 3-4 years of my life I could have spent at my state school not caring about what I was going to do for work and hiding from reality, the years and years of stressful work, retardedly high living expenses, etc. shouldn't I expect a level of compensation significantly higher than someone who paid $60k, didn't study, and partied all day before entering some mid-tier white collar job? Hell, even if we assume the two of us have the same IRR hurdle, the absolute numbers need to be higher given how much extra I've spent (in dollars and value of time spent), but people want to shit on ChrisHansen for saying he wouldn't be happy with 200k?
If your target was 200k a year at age 30, investing this much money and effort into getting there will probably yield a pretty shitty return in my opinion. Not saying that 200k isn't a comfortable living (it's not in NYC though) but a lot of what you're paying for is the upside. So anyone who pretends like they weren't hoping for seven figures at some point by going into banking is just kidding themselves. Strictly in regards to compensation, what makes finance one of the most attractive industries is the virtually limitless ceiling. Don't get me wrong, some of us actually do this job because we love it, but the pay is definitely a big factor for anyone who's sacrificed and put in the effort that we have to get here.
And one last thing - comparing how much you make given your age is stupid. It's about what your expenses are, and how much you've put into the pot to begin with. Both of those things are correlated with age - sure - but neither is caused by it (except for diaper expenses once you hit the mid-80s).
This. every other day there is a thread on here about "what's your retirement number" and the average people say is like $5 million. "Oh but I'd be OK with making $200,000 a year." If you live in NYC and make 200k, youll get there--after working for 200 years. People are just saying they don't care about money so it helps them sleep better at night when they fail to reach their goals. Yeah, I really love finance and like editing some asshole's pitchbook for punctuation mistakes at 3 in the morning. I love getting shit on for 18 hours a day and looking like I'm 45 when I'm 25. Give me a break. if you wouldn't get up and go to your job every day for zero pay (or just enough pay to pay the rent and buy food, no fun), you're in it for the money, like 99% of people in this country. Quit lying to yourselves.
Your life isn't about money, but your job is, and your job is a big part (or most) of your life. Liking your job is always good but is secondary to its primary objective, money.
Totally agree from the money side. As you mention, it involves a number of factors (investment, opportunity costs, etc.), which are individual and each one should do his/her own numbers. It is also a question of expenses (as you mention below) and needs (own, real, acquired) etc. NYC, very expensive, and need a multiple of the income to maintain a decent level of life/quality.
What perhaps some point out is that there is an intrinsic reward from your job that needs to be considered in one's equation (not just IRR).
And I fully agree, Chris should not get monkey shit for expressing his view and priorities as clear as he does. This is a forum, enriched by founded opinions as his, and we are adults here. I would even dare to say, that he has his priorities very clear, which is important, and hopefully he is achieving his goals, which is also 100% legit. Excellent.
Needless to say that they change over time (perhaps because you achieve them or not, you prefer to sleep well at night or simple discover other drivers in life... like control over own time -perhaps I'm not the only one here enjoying the latter)
I was about to type this, other than the diaper bit. Seriously, I'm guessing most of the people arguing with Chris are still in school. Investing the amount into your education and career necessary to be even middle-of-the-road finance just plain doesn't make sense if you're looking to top out at $200k.
If that's what you wanted: blow through an OK undergrad program, with 3.0+ GPA(party)..work some 40-50 hour job at a F500/F1000 for 2-3 years for $40-60k (have a life), study for gmat and get into a decent MBA (top 30?) and get into a mgmt position in a field that interests you. You should be damn close to $200k by age 30 if you have any brains. And don't give me shit about top 5% income bracket or w/e, at that level its more that you made the right choices than you worked or performed above par. If you follow that path I'd think you would be ahead of 99% of more complacent people. Maybe I'm delusional.
People are forgetting how hard giving up substantial "free time" for even 2-5 years can be, and what that should be worth.
BH -- I think what people are reacting to is that it is easy and pretty much anyone can do it. It's just not true. Many people that went to top schools could, but it's far from a guarantee. Also, I don't think you deserve anything for what school someone goes to. You deserve something for how well you do on the job. There may be a correlation, but it's not as big as most college students think it is. Many kids coming out of college will realize that they have no interest in this field (which will lead to failure, in my opinion). The point is, it's not 'easy'.
Saying that all of his friend's dads were in semi-senior roles already means the sample is flawed.
I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to make a lot of money (I like money). But, it is laughable to say that it's easy to be a PWM broker that pulls in $200K when the failure rate is 80%. All the guys in my firm agree that is the most difficult job in finance. None of us could do that job well. Granted, if you make it, you can clear many multiples of that. It's like looking at the top ten hedge fund managers and saying everybody who starts a hedge fund will earn at least a billion dollars per year. It's a flawed sample.
Hansen, make your 400k THEN say it's "terrible". I don't get why people think just because you aren't making a lot of money means that wasn't your intention. What? No shit "everyone" busted their asses and dished out 200k in the hopes of boats and hoes, but to claim that simply doing that leads to it ACTUALLY happening, is asinine. At least BH's opinion means something because he's actually talking about something he's DOING, not basing opinions off of a mosaic theory formed from samples off of WSO (absurdly biased sample). My advice, come back down to Earth to make the transition to the real world easier when you graduate. Otherwise, I'll be waiting for your posts in a couple years bitching about what you're getting offered because you let this site get in your head.
Definitely agree with you as far as having an idea of what that amount of money means. You can't really complain about how hard it is to live on 200k when you haven't done it and/or have no living expenses (or job) in the first place. And like you said, I'd emphasize that just because you put in the investment of time and money to be in a position to make the kind of money that is considered upper-quartile on Wall Street doesn't mean you're going to get there. But... if you end up having the skill set that allows you to get paid that way, you need to understand what you're worth otherwise you will get taken advantage of by big firms underpaying their talent and all that. Put another way, just because 200k is a comfortable living doesn't mean I should be happy with it when all of my efforts have gotten me to a point where I should be worth 800k. Nobody is entitled to anything, but you've gotta have an idea of what you've put in and what you need to get coming out the other end for your hard work.
Yes, I know that. I never guaranteed I would be making a ton of money. Obviously just putting in the work doesn't mean you will get your desired result. All I said was I would be dissappointed if I didnt reach my goal, which is high but not unrealistic.
To whoever said I was being honest and had my priorities alligned, you are exactly correct, that's the point I was going for. I was just surprised when people said they would be OK with such "low" salaries because obviously they would not if they were shooting for much better and the culture of this forum would indicate that many of you would not be happy AT ALL living on $200k in NYC, and then I get shit on when you all have a bitch fit over me pointing out this hypocrisy.
Boy, this thread escalated quickly. ChrisHansen, I agree with your post here. At first, you might have come off a little like what I didnt like about this forum, but I can respect what your motives and priorities are. I see no problem in working for just the money. Very few people would continue working for someone and working long hours if there was less pay involved. Hell, I'm only going into accounting and hopefully corporate finance, so I'll never get near high finance money (excluding the possibility of a successful small practice of my own), and I can still admit I'm in it only for job security and money, at least for now.
All I meant by this thread was, even if you're only making $200k a year, the fact of the matter is, you are doing good and you should be proud of yourself for being in the upper percentiles of income in the US. I'm not talking about what anyone deserves due to how they work, because thats a whole different animal.
This I agree with.^^
Completely agree. I just feel like a lot of times ppl on here (particularly the younger ones) forget some important things. For example, it'd be easy to read some thread discussing what "market" salary is and realize that, say it's 120k. The problem is they're missing what's behind that. The ppl in these threads are refering to positions they got that 500 ppl applied for, 30 got first round interviews, 10 final round, and 3 hired. So while 120k may be the market salary for that position, it may very well be irrelevant to most people purely based off of probability. The problem people have imo is that they see that number and miss what was behind it, i.e. the %.004 chance of even getting it. Then they take that 120k number and apply it to every job they find, lol. Opinions formed based off of the top 10% of grads are relatively irrelevant in the majority of cases. Just my $.02.
I lived in the Midwest and earned $60K living like a king as a single 22-year-old male. My definition of "king" is having a nice apartment and being able to go out Thursday, Friday, and Saturday without worrying too much about the bank account, in addition to occasionally buying some nice clothes and shoes.
It's not that people on WSO distort what a good salary is, necessarily, but they certainly distort what it means to live "comfortably".
Granted, I traded all that away to go all-in on finance, but, you know...
Midwest huh? I'm thinkin about making the move to Chicago from Florida myself. As someone who will be making only about $50k as a 22 year old, Chicago is a great city option at a lower cost.
But yeah, some may have different upbringings that distort their ideals and opinions on what is comfortable. I live off my financial aid, so basically my total living expenses are about $20k a year. This is EVERYTHING, food, gas, car insurance, rent, utilities, cell phone, gym, and anything else. So the idea of having more than double that is very comfortable sounding to me
Not to be a wet mop, but wouldn't taxes take a nice bite out of that spread?
Question about Chicago - considering what the prop guys get paid... are they just absolute rockstars out there or what? A 21 year old in Chicago making 150k is pretty ridiculous, just wondering how big that gap is between NY and Chicago expenses. I don't prefer Chicago to NYC but am from the Midwest in the first place and have a few opps to go to Chicago but kind of still on the fence.
Check this site out. Not sure how accurate it is but you will live like a king in Chicago compared to NYC. http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html
Check this site out. Not sure how accurate it is but you will live like a king in Chicago compared to NYC. http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html[/quote]
Cool stuff, thanks. I plugged in $70k and NYC as current location just to see the comparison and ... if this is even close to accurate I'm somewhat inclined to make a move to Chi town... $36,695 in Chicago = $70,000 in NYC according to this site!
Chicago is absolutely the best trade off between COL and city atmosphere. It's cheaper than NYC/DC/LA/SF and probably even Dallas and houston.
As far as salary, I feel you, though WSO didn't do it to me. I'll make between 60-70 all in this year and have put spent myself into some credit card debt in one of those high COL cities I listed above. I'll almost undoubtedly hit the 150-200 range in my career because almost everyone in my FLDP program does so. But that's not going to be enough for me to do what I want without having to really worry about the bank account. And that's all I really want, to not have to worry about finances. I've actually considered moving back to my hometown in the midwest because of the fact that I can likely get a similar paying job but would be paying 50% of what I do now on rent/parking/utilities/drinks/etc. But even then i'll still have to worry about if I can afford the vacation I want to take or if I can buy a new motorcycle.
I know my problem is my desire to just have so many toys. Motorcycles/fast cars/every electronic known to man/mountaineering gear/kayaks/etc. I just accumulate too much shit and try to do too much. But I guess working 50hrs a week in CF provides me that time to take advantage of a lot of these things that the increased work hours wouldn't if I do make the transition into something higher paying.
I've started my first semester at Penn and I'm trying to figure out why everyone here wants to go into IB (that too in NYC) A VP in NYC who makes 500k a year pays 220k in taxes leaving him with 280k to take home. 280k a year is equivalent to 140k a year in south florida or chicago. The small business owner who makes 200k (pre tax) a year in south florida probably has similar purchasing power, better hours, and pays less taxes (due to deductions, no state income taxes, etc) than the VP who makes 500k a year in NYC.
Maybe this person enjoys being in NYC more than he would enjoy being a small business owner in Florida?
Small business owner in florida was just an example (since the OP is from Fort Lauderdale), but I guess it comes down to personal preference as well. Personally, I don't find NYC that great of a city. It's dirty, cold, overpopulated, etc. It's pretty overhyped IMO. I would prefer to live in a smaller metropolitan city such as Chicago, Miami, Houston, Long Beach, or Dallas.
This industry does that to you in general. Sometimes I have to remind myself that I'm 23 years old and make more than most of middle class America will ever make in their lives.
Billy Madison _ Industrial Revolution Puppy by hulu
Hey Art Vandelay and others who are sulking that their "realistic" dream of making bank in Finance is out of reach, quit acting like whiney girls. It's true, you probably won't stack cheese, especially with your attitude, which makes it easier for kids like me with balls to snap up the opportunities.
I would like to put things in perspective here, my first full-time salary will be higher than my parents combined income. I am the middle child of three, and my family did just fine with a combined income of around $60k for most of my life. My parents do make a little more now, but my point is that your Big 4 salary is totally enough to be happy about, as long as you're not blowing it on useless shit, trying to "fit in."
I agree entirely. And I think I've said multiple times throughout this thread that even if some of us top out at "only" $150k a year, it's still in the very upper percentile of the country. That was the point I was trying to make.
Finance is fucking unreal. I am at the start of my career (ER), and I am literally the highest paid person in my family EVER (even inflation adjusted). And I work very reasonable hours. Just not having to think about my bank account balance is such a massive quality of life improvement.
I am not even sure what I will do when I eventually make the jump to a HF or asset manager. I mean, I could afford to spend 3k a month on a nicer apartment but why would I? I could buy a car, but it is really more trouble than it's worth. I am not quite IlliniProgrammer-level thrifty, but I am not sure what I would want to buy with more money.
I like reading this website. I am fascinated by high finance even though I work for a regional commercal bank doing small-to-mid market lending and got an MBA from a small private school that is not even ranking.
But reality is, I am very happy. I hit $100K last year as an AVP and will likely hit $150K next year. I live in a City in Nor Cal with only 300K people and at my income level puts me way about family and friends who live and work here. I am only 30yrs old and in 7-10 year will be hitting $250K at 40. The executive at my Bank make $750K and my CEO pulls in $2.3MM a year.
This is a great website but I think the point is to do you and be happy with what you have. Sure id like to make $400K a year as a 30 year old but I own my own 2,600 sq ft home and do quite well for a non Wall St guy.
I think it bears repeating that the vast VAST majority of people on Wall Street Oasis aren't actual professionals in the financial services industry.
I think it's something like 50-60% non-professionals. Not sure if that necessarily deserves the double capital VAST as opposed to the single lowercase variety.
Lots of good points in this thread.
My $0.02
In NYC, making $150k a year gets you basic comforts like a small, crappy apartment with a roommate and the ability to go out without too much worry. Expenses will be tight though, and purchases like a new suit, or a trip to your buddy's wedding will cramp your style.
You will not be saving any meaningful amount of money. And if you lose your job you have to move away to somewhere cheaper.
At $200k, you essentially can start to save money on top of this. Finally you can start to build up a rainy day fund, stashing a few grand a month. I feel like above $200k is a big hurdle in NYC where you can finally start to have at least a modest improvement in quality of life.
Anybody who thinks you are driving a Ferrari at $400k is seriously misguided. I am a VP and buying an apartment is at least a million for a tiny 2 bedroom. Yes cheaper options exist but not really.
I do agree with Blackhat and Chris. Firms will pay you literally the absolute minimum to keep you in your chair for another year.
I should add i prefer to make more $$$ in NYC vs $150 somewhere else, which i made in my pre Mba career. And it is so much easier to climb the salary ladder in IBD vs other careers. VPs at my former tech firms were like 55 years old and there were like 5 of them across the entire company. Essentially zero ability to rise in the ranks in a situation like that.
Yes, quality of life is similar. But things like travel, buying a car, etc are much more accessible / enjoyable when you make more $$$ and live in a high cost area.
I've never understood why people aim so low. I guess it's your background; I could never live with myself if my max annual income was $400k. People tend to get whatever they want, so you just have to figure out what you want to shoot for and then go get it.
It's a lot easier when all the plebs think it's pointless to even try.
If you couldnt live with yourself if your max salary was "only" $400k, you probably cant live with yourself for other reasons.
monkey has a point tough, most ppl do just never bother.
cmon, who will tell ya how shitty their salaries actually are?
Your salary is not on an upward trajectory in finance... not to mention your income.
A lot of people drop out of the finance industry and many more lose their jobs... Layoffs, banks and companies going bust, mergers, etc...
If you lose your $300k p.a. job you might have to go back to $100k p.a. after spending a year or more trying to find a job (and adjusting mentally to your income becoming a third of what it was)... That's if someone will hire you when they can get a 2 year analyst to do most of it for peanuts, or hire an MBA for peanuts and a half... This is a good case scenario for a lot of finance people in a 10 year horizon.
You don't know if your firm, industry group, team, or job will be around in 5 years... imagine what happens over a career.
This is even before you consider that many people get sick of finance and leave for other fields even if their paid a lot.
People act like the road to 250k/year is easy. The level of attrition in finance is ruthless. Bankarella's post on the subject was elucidating.
Finance has shrunk as a portion of our economy and I expect taxation changes over the next few years will make it significantly less lucrative than it is now compared to the median income of the US.
Having a 7-figure salary would be amazing, which very few will achieve. Making 500,000K a year is more ideal and probable. But in reality I think I would be happy with a $150,000K salary. I'am better off than most people and could afford a lot of fancy things that my parents coudln't. The more and more I think about I should open up a Subway sandwhich shop or fast food franchise. My brother knows a guy who owns only 1 7/11 store and is making $70K.
More than half of us will never make MD or even become CEO of F500 company. Soon or later utility of money will go down or won't matter as much.
Agree with this. I don't think it's a matter of "not making it" to MD or CEO, but rather that most people don't want the lifestyle that these high positions entail. Sure the money is absurd, but the personal sacrifice one has to make to end up there often isn't worth it. It's been said countless times, but the vast majority of people don't define career or life satisfaction by salary, even those in the highest paying fields.
3% of the people who plan to make it to MD? I can tell you right now most of the analysts I know (myself included) aren't aiming for that torture.
On interviews, when asked why you should be chosen apparently you should say "Because I've spent $200k on tuition and sacrificed partying so I could bust my ass in the library. So I deserve it damn it!!" (and then stomp your foot)
Not sure what planet you guys live on where hard work = success, but it is NOT fucking Earth. Hell, capitalism by its very nature enforces that notion (completely beyond the scope of this post). Lol @ all the ppl who wrote out their cutesy little life plans and are yet to experience any deviations.
Negative. Everyone arguing with Chris is in the real world. Everyone agreeing with Chris is either still in school or HASN'T been in the real world yet. Because I assure you, the real world begins where your "plan" ends.
Semi-passive income has ruined my concept of what work is
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