Moderator Note (Andy): This was originally posted in June 2012.
Everyone knows those kids who go to non-targets who do absolutely nothing to help their job situation and freshman summer or sophomore summer don't do anything, but maybe get some manual labor job at best (cashier, waiter, etc...). Many of them probably have average grades and just party a lot.
Kids at targets and semi-targets are fighting skin and bones for top BB gigs and MM offers. Even so, inevitably some kids at targets and semi-targets get screwed. The majority of people I know at non-targets don't think about networking and really the uphill battle they face to get good jobs. So with the economy so brutal, what do those at non-targets who don't network do?
Simple answer, they graduate without a job lined up and continue partying until their parents cut off the money. A
I just graduated from a non-target and around 50% of my friends don't have a job. I don't know if it's our generation or the general sentiment of the majority of the American workforce but the lack of ambition I've seen is a little ridiculous.
You know there are regular people with regular 9-5 jobs out there. Pulling in 40-50k is a dream for them and they leave work and go to happy hour and college parties on the weekend. It's happening right now with my friends. Yes it is average, but there's also an "average" for the finance/WSO community. To be extraordinary, you have to be radically different and it seems that the kids at the targets or semi-targets are forgetting what made them extraordinary enough in the first place (to get into those schools) and are just falling in with their "leveled-up" average.
The 80-20 rule applies everywhere. You always have to break out of the pack. Good question...I often think of this too. We all get so worried here, and then it's like well hell the rest of our peers have it waaaay worse than us.
IT consulting
Many non-target kids don't even KNOW what a career IS.
They believe First Investors Corp and Prudential are the "real deal" in "finance," and their friend working operations or IT at JPM making $50k is a total baller. First hand experience here folks. On top of that, a shit ton of them think that accounting is as real as it gets.
I hate even talking about it.
What's wrong with Prudential? They're top 20 in terms of AUM. It really doesn't seem like a terrible place to be for Asset Management.
Nah man. I mean selling life insurance. Same as AXA or Northwestern Mutual.
The entitlement and ego is strong in this one.
This has been said about me before lol. Duly noted. For the record, I go to a non-target myself.
My point is to illustrate that many non-targets are uneducated about what opportunities are available to them and tend to not investigate anything; I wrote that through the lens of my own experience with some of my own friends.
No, I think he's dead on. I go to a non-target UG business school with ZERO alumni on the street and very few with any respectable alumni at all. Our best alumni to our name was a CEO that blew up a large company in a short while after being hired. If you look up alumni from my school on LinkedIn that are in Finance, you'll get a list of bank tellers.
Nearly all of my classmates are just looking to graduate and think jobs are just something that are given afterwards. A senior classmate of mine just told me at the end of the spring semester he was "thinking" about getting a PWM internship (the kind intended for freshman) for the summer "getting people coffee or whatever". These kids think that because they're all doing marketing in a business school that they can take it easy. Now I know it has already been countered that F500 companies like to do their recruiting in places like this, except that's not true in my case either. We have several F500 companies in the city and they go out of their way to not hire people from my school.
Pizza Hut?
This directed at me bro?!
Kidding, I went to an epic non target. Literally zero alumni on the street.
Only 1 guy from my class had an offer before graduation, the rest (including me) = none.
I received an offer the other day, but turned it down. It was in a shitty city with shitty pay, plus they said I couldn't do ANY trading on my personal accounts due to the job responsibilities. I have 6 weeks until my lease ends and think I can do better.
I grew up broke as a joke so 40-50k entry level is cool with me. I don't ask for much and live a simple lifestyle. The reason I'm cool with 40-50k is because I can save 20-30k a year and make nice sized returns in the market.
I'd like a job in ER/AM (Fuck IB hours), but I'm not going to kill myself over it. There's tradeoffs I'm willing to take. Working 40 hours max and having a life outside of work is A-OK with me.
Right now I'm mainly focused on financial analyst positions to build my resume, my end goal is moving back to Austin. Best city in 'Murica and real estate is still hella cheap.
There are the few standouts who went to slightly more prestigious schools (a tier or two under the Ivy Plus - think Rice, Georgia Tech, Purdue, etc.), and I was the first alum from my HS to make it to a school that wasn't in-state or an out-of-state non-target. Experienced MAJOR culture shock when I got to my current school and saw that everyone was probably several years ahead of me in terms of STEM knowledge, already had goals for their careers (some already interned at boutiques, tech startups, etc. the summer between senior year and freshman year college), and knew exactly what they had to do in college to get there.
In all honesty, I think that half of these non-target average kids and underarchievers don't really care about pay/prestige ("40k? Sounds better than minimum wage, I'll take it!") and are happy to live in a 1br apartment with their fiance (and out-of-wedlock children). Alternatively, they just don't have the knowledge that it's POSSIBLE to have jobs that pay 70k+ starting with excellent exit opps, etc. The other half probably went to non-targets to study something completely novel like Ancient Roman Literature or Archaeology and could give two shits about high-earning opportunities in the business world.
I don't get it, UT is a fine school, at least on par with the ones you mentioned. If you were in state and got in there and not to an Ivy, Stanford or Chicago, why wouldn't you go there?
A lot of other people either don't know about those jobs or that they even exist. Before I knew much about business I thought that I'd love to be making 100k some day.
There's also an important THIRD factor.
Short version: They think you need to come from an extremely prestigious background to even have a shot at a good job, and haven't yet realized that hustle is more powerful than prestige in many cases.
Long version: I even had one commander in the Army who told me pretty bluntly that I was crazy to even try to get into the business school I mentioned and to shoot for a Wall Street job. To sum up what they told me he said that since even he didn't think he had a shot at those jobs, and he came from a more prestigious background than I do (He went to well known if not exactly "prestigious" NorthEastern school) and he couldn't get into a front office job that it was pointless for me to even try and that "I see you running a store...you should settle for 40k a year or so". Almost everyone else I talked to about the job search immediately told me I should go on USAjobs.com and apply for cushy government positions because they're "safe" jobs with good benefits....nevermind that there's little upside and government regularly cuts people.
I'm now studying at B-school ranked several slots higher than the school we were discussing at the time and I've networked well enough that I have BB Associates and VP's in my target firms who have promised to get my resume looked at. I even had someone trying to talk me into joining a VC firm which I balked at due to the amount of cold-calling the job requires at the entry level.
Finally most people tend to follow the path of least resistence. I don't just mean this in terms of effort, but also emotionally and in terms of going with the crowd. Me and my brothers went to different expensive, private schools in the South. A lot of the kids there were smart as shit and most came from rich families.....and most of them ended up at mid-tier schools before going back to their hometown to work in daddy's law firm.
To be fair this applies at ALL levels. I remember just a few weeks ago I was at a networking event where we were talking to some mid level PE/banking folk and one of the guys from H/S/W was getting shredded by them because he'd talked about going into PE and wasn't able to articulate WHY except that everyone else wanted to be in PE.
I consider myself to be a very alert observer of society, and there's one thing I've learned while living in every part of the country (sans CA) and while working abroad: most people make decisions NOT based on their own happiness, but because of a vague emotional sense of what is "cool" and what isn't. There's a couple of famous posters (such as one well known guy who was obsessed with Harvard Business until he got dinged) who act exactly like that.
While networking is key to achieving success, I wouldn't say that it absence precludes it, especially given that networking is only required to get top jobs. There are many people that work their way up in a career field. For some of these people, the climb may not be a very long one, but for others, likely those who are excellent workers, their longer climb might be met with much greater success. Some people even become highly successful in the same company after being their for 20-30 years.
Coming from a non-target or semi-target school, and especially since I also know some high-level students, I can totally understand where the op is coming from. The main point I want to raise comes down to what one wants in life. At op....judging by your tone it doesn't seem like you can understand why people don't network, almost like it's alien to you. All I can say is that many people go to college to "enjoy" their life. People who don't plan out their lives from the age of 5 a la the archetypal BB investment banker, still can be successful in other fields. One reason this is true is because these individuals, even by virtue of socializing and/or partying to some degree, are meeting new people that can serve as a network. Another reason is by having more experiences, individuals come to know more about themselves and better pick career fields that genuinely interest them, aside from money and other superficial measures that ultimately don't determine happiness. By choosing a field one is drawn to, it becomes much easier to become a success inherently because it's not work in the traditional sense.
In summary, networking is important to success but not completely responsible. Not everyone feels the need to get an A on every test or to stress about life plans because when it comes down to it, they will wake probably wake up the next day with opportunities still ahead of them. Those that keep working at it will find a way if they really want it, or will move on until what's meant to be is found.
It's completely insane to think that some companies do offer positions to applicants who don't stalk their employees.
This
Haha, so true. If you don't want to work at their firm enough to at least linkedin stalk a few of them you obviously don't want it.
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I went non target for school. I worked construction for my freshman "internship" summer and did the same for my sophomore "internship" summer..while it didn't help me directly for my future internships and current FT job, it certainly built some character. (It's also very difficult to advocate working 70 hour weeks when you're also playing a division 1 sport and have to commit to staying fit and playing all summer) It showed employers my work ethic and brought up very interesting talking points during interviews. Personally, I would recommend it. It's not easy work at all digging and lifting rocks for 10 hrs in 95 degree heat, but it makes sitting in an office doing models and other BS seem like a piece of cake.
You'll learn invaluable experience, a knowledge for what it is to really work, and see what its like for those who arent working in finance do to scrape by. If anything it will make you want to work that much harder to get a great job in finance. I still have that line on my resume about construction and I don't think i'm going to take it off at any point in the near future
If you really dont have anything going on, contact AndyLouis about the WSO summer internship ASAP and get that going.
They occupy Wall St.
What do the non-networking target kids do? Same thing. Not finance.
Represent!
The main difference I find is the importance of the junior year internship leading to a FT offer. Non-target kids tend to wait until senior year to go out and really look seriously for offers.
Are you asking what happens to non target kids who want to work on wall st and don't network or non target kids in general?
Because this is super easy to answer either way: -if you go to a non target and don't network(or necessarily work hard) and want to work on wall st, you wont make it unless its pure luck -if you're talking non target kids in general, then you're pretty naive. Because these schools that aren't targets for banking are targets for F500 and a ton of other careers that students get jobs in. There is a world that doesn't revolve around banking.
They graduate without jobs, or get crap jobs. This is not a non target only phenomenon. It was the case at my target too.
I sound naive for saying so, but I am continually stunned by how obviously driven students just drop the ball when it comes to finding work. I have met people from my college working maintenance jobs at hotels. Not "management track" jobs, "change the light bulb" type jobs.
At non-targets, it must be worse. At least at targets, you occasionally see people getting consulting jobs after doing nothing for four years.
But, seriously, I saw people taking 35k jobs in flyover states (no offense to those of you in the mid west).
A lot of people also took horrible (under 30k) jobs in "fun" industries. Think advertising, fashion, entertainment, art, etc. I think living in New York on a 25k salary must be hell.
This sounds like an extremely arrogant thread. No offense, but I have plenty of friends in IBD. On average they make around 70k - 100k. They work 80 - 100 hours. They absolutely hate their lives. They are depressed. I also have friends working for F500 companies. They work 9 - 5 jobs. They make 50k - 60k. They are happy and enjoy their lives. Many of them are from non-targets that didn't network. So it is idiotic to think there isn't a life outside banking. Now if you are talking about kids that aspire to be on Wall Street, well thats a whole other story.
This thread is motivation for me to get out of BO.
A lot of ego flying around on this thread. I think when we spend too much time on WSO, too much time thinking about banking, PE, HF, etc., we forget that the overwhelming majority of people in the world work in other fields. I grew up in a town with 10k people and went to a non-target. Nobody I grew up or went to college with really has any idea what I do, why I work so much, or how much $ I make. Most of the people in the world have no concept of this bubble we live in or aspire to live in. And the world keeps turning; they pay their bills, go out to dinner on Friday night and watch football on the weekends just like us.
I'm at a non-target and am not networking with banks. I plan to be unemployed, miserable, and homeless within weeks after graduation...
Jk, going Big 4 audit, then hopefully to CF/corp.dev. or open up my own practice.
while money is important, once you start getting it, you realize it's not what makes you happy
Plenty of jobs out there outside BB/MM IBD for finance majors - corporate development, corporate finance for F500, PWM, equity research at smaller shops, accounting, consulting, etc. Possibilities are endless.
If you are dead set on IBD, by all means network your ass off and go for a top brand, but realize that plenty of people have no desire to go down that path. Those with a "IBD or die" attitude could use a slice of humble pie.
Ops.
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Agreed. The myopic views in this thread are slightly startling and make me question how in touch with reality some posters are.
While there are plenty of non-networking kids at non-targets who do graduate unemployed. There are also a good number who end up with nice F500 (and the like) jobs and live very happy lives.
Not everyone is banking or bust and banking certainly is not the only way to a happy life.
This lol.
But on a more serious note; There are a lot of arrogant twats in this thread. The world does not revolve around banking or "crushing it" as a 1st year analyst.. Many (A MAJORITY OF) people find happiness through different vessels unrelated to the prestige of their jobs. That being said, there is nothing wrong with holding a prestigious banking position either, the arrogance in some of the prior posts was just alarming and annoying me. Just my 2 cents.
My taxes.
If they don't have 2-3 internships by graduation, then you are pretty much screwed and must settle for something crappy or get very lucky...
There are many of industries that exist outside of finance. With that being said, most of my friends that go to non-targets and have no career path come from well to do families. I think most of them don't really think about the future and are more fixated on enjoying their youth. A lot of them are set to take over their family companies etc. It's unfortunate because some of there close friends will get sucked into the no worry lifestyle, but really don't have their families connections and money to fall back on.
I also have have a handful of friends and family friends who have graduated from non-targets that can't get a job. Most of them are working as waitresses or similar position. They don't have the motivation to get out of their lifestyle though. I want to do x, y, z, but companies won't hire me without experience. I can't get experience because I didn't have an internship. They only give internships to college students etc, so they continue their tabling jobs.
i go to a non target and i do network, but i feel like i need to go to grad school to get that pedigree for ppl to justify hiring me. i am from canada so education is a bit cheaper
I dont really network with top tier because I enjoyed college a little too much, but I do cold call local firms, which has landed me two internships and interviews for FT at IB boutiques and some valuation firms
The phrase "crushing it" absolutely cracks me up
I go to a non-target state school, there are people that get good FO jobs but most have family connections or worked incredibly hard to get there. I would say that at least 60-70% of people in our finance department dont even get jobs in finance but instead graduate with no internships and get menial jobs in sales/marketing/working for their dad or some bullshit like that. Big 4 acct jobs are seen as prestigious jobs where most people on this board would laugh at those offers. The general public is fine with these kind of jobs and most arent obsessed with the prestige and greed that the street is.
Haha hilarious post. I go to an extreme non-target (day care posts on our job portal) ... didn't network.. but landed an M&A internship in a F100 (no not an unpaid bs). Whats UP!! And no I dont have no rich family to fall back on, or any family connects that hooked me up. Im a first generation immigrant.. working my way through college.
But on a serious note.. yea, kids at my school have the drive to get good grades... but think just grades will get them a job. I've been networking hard for an IB position and I do understand the importance of it.. but then again you target kids need to understand there's people applying for med school and other majors. My school has one of the top pre-pharm programs
most of them do accounting/back office gigs BUT WATCH OUT FOR THOSE NON-TARGETS WHO GET INTO THE REAL GIGS BY NETWORKING. they are some of the biggest hustlers out there. i go to a non-target and while 99% of the people there do not know which way is up, that 1% is killing everything. We have a program with 8 students in their sophomore, junior, and senior years-someone should call the cops on them because they have been murdering everyone they compete against regardless of ivy or not. IB offers include Goldman Sachs, jpm, evercore, lazard (FT not SA), citi, baml, deutsche bank, ubs, barclays. people are superdaying for morgan stanley now. for AM, kids are superdaying at blackrock (recently) and pimco (coming weeks). consulting has mckinsey, bain, and bcg offers (FT). PE only has ACAS but still.
the point is the few non-targets that make it to superdays from wtf schools? they know what they are doing. and its impressive that it is is a group of like the same 8 students that are just picking up 3-4 offers each at places they normally should not even get a first round at.
OMG, you guys are talking about students from non-target school like they are some inferior breed of students... I know at least 15 guys that got into top schools in NY (e.g. Columbia, NYU, Cornell) but couldn't go there because they didn't get full scholarships. So, they ended up going to a non-target public school which gave them a full scholarship. I don't think they interviewed with gs or mckinsey... but they did interview with top BB and companies for front office jobs and received very nice offers... and the important thing is that they are 22-24 and they have no student loans to repay...
Its funny how many egos really are going on in this thread. Yes many people that go to non targets are under motivated and don't understand how hard it it to work in IB or other relayed fields for big name companies but lets be serious they aren't the be all end all. Honestly I had no clue until I found this site when I was a jr. I went to a non target graduated with a 3.1 in Econ and im doing just fine. Make just under 60k and im more then happy.
Maybe its just me but I love the how people are like I make 75k a year!!! But I work 80-100 hrs a week and have NO LIFE outside of work... check my math but 50k 40hrs a week is about $24ish an hr and your 75k at 80 hrs a week is about 18-19ish an hr?? Ill happily take the 50k with a life and hard work while your there to get promoted or gain the experience and move on to get a solid raise. I worked for 6 months @45k and got recruited and now make 60k
So stop hating deflate those egos some. Many people are living great real lives, you know actually living not just working, making 40-60k
Lol ure an idiot. 75k is dogshit. First years make ~125k. And before you even talk about cost of living or any of that shit let me tell you this job is a pathway to much greater things
While his numbers might be a bit off he does have a valid point. Some people are making a lot less but actually enjoying life.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the whole exit opportunities, big bonuses, etc. But there is no point on demeaning someone because they have a different idea of happiness and success. There are of course those of us who strive to advance and make ridiculous amounts of money or whatever. Then there are those who just have different ideals. Nothing wrong with that.
Sales and maybe some marketing
Coming from a non-target myself I can see where the OP is coming from. My school failed miserably at displaying the importance of career building or even the significance of what was being taught in the classrooms. I myself am guilty slacking off when I should have been networking, etc. The only kids I saw doing really well were the ones who good personal guidance from parents, mentors, life coaches, etc., although that aspect of personal guidance applies anywhere I'm pretty sure target schools do a much better job at keeping their students engaged.
At the end of the day however, it all depends on the individual!! I know plenty of people who have led extremely successful careers coming from non-targets and I plan to be one of them. There are plenty out there who have the same ambitions and work ethic as target kids but couldn't attend target schools for reasons other than not qualifying, so it's not fair to be so quick to generalize.
Exactly. I'm at a 100%, certified, not even close non-target, and I think I'm gonna do pretty ok. Obviously banking, consulting, and any type of prestigious fldps are more or less out of the question for me, as there isnt even a sniff of OCR for it. That said, I feel that I'm doing the best I possibly can out of my school, Big 4 audit, with the hopes of something more finance or strategy based later on.
There are probably 5 kids that I know personally who I think know what the fuck they're doing, the others, not so much. like a chem major about to graduate with no solid plans because "you can do anything with chemistry, I'll decide later."
Therefore, I think you really have to look at the individual. I had no help from parents in choosing a career, mainly because both were blue-collar workers and neither went to college, so I had to find this stuff out on my own. If I knew about this whole target vs non-target thing before I applied to colleges, I could have maybe tried for some, but still I don't think it would've been financially realistic. Moral of the story, there are individuals who can still do ok, I'm making the best of going to a non-target by getting a great entry gig for normal standards, even if its the bottom of the barrel on WSO.
Here's my background. I'm from a non-target (large state school) and did not need to network. Of course, I don't work in finance. I majored in Computer Science and only graduated mid-pack in my class.
I ended up accepting a software engineer position with a major defense contractor in the Baltimore area. (I work in a business group that is relatively unaffected by a sequester).
I was offered for this entry level position: - $75,000/year - $10,000/year tuition reimbursement for grad school - 27 paid vacation days per year - 10 paid military leave days per year - differential pay during mobilization/deployment - 100% reimbursement for any certification related to the career field - Best health care insurance
I worked AT MOST 50 hours per week.
*Note: Differential pay means that your employer makes up the difference between your salary and your military base pay. For example, as a First Lieutenant I would make approximately $45k/year as my "military base" pay. I would receive $35k/year as my "housing allowance". Differential pay means that if my salary was $75k, differential pay would be ($75k/year - $45k/year) = $30k/year. So on a deployment, I would receive military base + housing allowance + differential. All of which would be tax free. This works out really well because it allows one to basically purchase a luxury condo in cash and take out a VA mortgage on a second (which would become my "primary" residence to take advantage of a tax deduction) condo. You can start building a significant and steady revenue source that is independent of your civilian career. From that point on, acquiring more assets only becomes easier.
*Senior engineers (not management) earn about $140,000-170,000/year in this area.
*Health care insurance: TriCare Reserve Select + Supplemental. 100% coverage for all inpatient and outpatient services. Zero co-pay and zero out of pocket expenses in the United States and overseas. Total premiums per month are $65. Even a basic Blue Cross Blue Shield will cost you $200+/month.
I also commissioned as an infantry officer in the National Guard. At this point, I was already 1/4 of the way to a military retirement. This is a great hedge against the volatility of the private sector. The unfortunate part of finance is that you will have to essentially put all your eggs in one basket so to speak. My military service also allowed me to attend undergrad tuition free (State Tuition Waiver) so my debt coming out of undergrad was $0. I didn't even touch any other educational benefits such as the Post 9/11 GI Bill that is good for up to $30,000/year for 36-48 months if I choose to go to grad school later on. In terms of potential military career progression, the paths/opportunities for an infantry officer with a sought after technical skills background is immense right now. While the DoD is drawing down at an alarming rate, it has announced that it will expand its US Cyber Command from 900 personnel to 4900+. That opens up an incredible number of O-6 (Colonel) commands and United States Army Reserve IMA attachments to US Cyber Command.
As for living expenses, the Baltimore area is incredibly affordable. I was living in a 1100 sq. ft. 2 bed room 2 bath luxury condo with a balcony all to myself. This was in one of the best areas of Baltimore and had a reserved/gated parking spot. Rent was $1400/month. The same would cost you more than $8000/month easily in Manhattan. Excluding everything else, you would need to make at least $100k+/year MORE than I did in your first year just to have similar living standards in Manhattan.
Moral of the story: "kids at non-targets" can do quite well for themselves.
If you're from a non-target, don't try your hand in finance. You can do much better elsewhere. The key to building wealth is high income and low cost of living for most people.
Of course, I'll never become as wealthy as the top earners in finance. But let's not kid ourselves, the vast majority of people on WSO will never get there. I had many peers in high school that worked harder than me, were more talented than me, and went to much more prestigious schools than I did. Many of them went into finance. Nearly 99% of them now work many more hours and are less financially successful. Food for thought.
That's sounds like a pretty sick setup for a non target.
Thanks! Success is about utilizing all your strengths for an optimal outcome! You will never be a leader if you're always a follower. I'm glad I didn't buy into that BS that my parents always preached, "Work hard. Go to a top school. Become a doctor or a banker." It's, literally, what every single academically ambitious peer I had in high school did!
If you are always following in someone's footsteps, you will never have the first mover advantage. Perhaps this is fine with people; perhaps they are satisfied being "safe". I've found that some people are far too close-minded and fail to realize all the opportunities that are around them. And for those that do, there are always those that never have the courage to seize those opportunities. You have to take "smart" risks, create "angles" in life, and think outside of the box. And then, you need to follow through on them.
CHEERS!
Military paid for my schooling.
I heard that some people do jobs that aren't investment banking. I know it sounds crazy but apparently it's true..
Just echoing what other people have said. I know this from experience. Lots of kids don't even think about it, and get normal 9-5 $40k per year jobs. A sampling of jobs I know of (all the same age as me): Server at TGI Friday's, "Nuclear Refueling Engineer" (basically he fills up big naval submarines with gas), Sales-person at Riser (they make copying machines - seriously), sales-person at some piece of shit small computer outfit, Geek at Best Buy, unemployed, accountant at a local accounting firm, Unemployed and living at home, Home Depot associate, Landscape Architect at a .... landscaping firm, working for dad's ridiculously small personal financial advisory company (as in, it's just the two of them), etc.
Cred: I went to a total non-target, am 26 years old, make bank at a hedge fund in LA, and was recently admitted to CBS and Kellogg.
This shit makes me sick. Went to complete non-target undergrad. Lived at the beach every summer in college and waited tables. Parents were/are middle class, paycheck-to-paycheck. Had NO idea what IBD was at age 21. Was making ~ IBD Associate $ at age 25. Sure, I didn't work megafund PE or elite HF before b-school, but come on. No regrets.
To all those non-targets out there, please ignore these posts. Work your ass off when the time comes, treat others well, and you'll be okay.
And then you people wonder why people hate bankers...
network network NETWORK!
Although I usually condone ppl to just think about THEMselves and not what other ppl are doing, I will say this:
Network even if it's without a goal. The time spent doing so is rewarding and potentially gainful.
I come from a non-target and realize that I should have done this as well. However, the nice thing is when you're in school (target or not) you have a natural network built in. Be sure to maintain that at the VERY least
Also, if you go to a non-target, make sure your OCR and career counselors are competent!
>In all honesty, I think that half of these non-target average kids and underarchievers don't really care about pay/prestige ("40k? Sounds better than minimum wage, I'll take it!") and are happy to live in a 1br apartment with their fiance (and out-of-wedlock children). Alternatively, they just don't have the knowledge that it's POSSIBLE to have jobs that pay 70k+ starting with excellent exit opps, etc. The other half probably went to non-targets to study something completely novel like Ancient Roman Literature or Archaeology and could give two shits about high-earning opportunities in the business world.
Jesus fucking Christ. I can't help but think most of these posts are made by insecure 17-21 year old kids. At least I hope, that way you might at least grow out of it. Not everyone in this world cares about a career. And that's okay. I have friends who don't define themselves by their work. Some of them didn't go to college, some went to community college, others studied English at a non-target university. Many of them have the type of jobs that pay $12-18 an hour with some benefits in a stereotypical office setting (think 'The Office')
While we are on that topic, since I'm assuming most of you have seen The Office, think about Jim and Pam. Neither of them have high powered careers, but they are happy. Sure sure that's a T.V. show, I know. But my point is many people live fulfilling and happy lives and their career is way down on the list of what defines their life. And this doesn't mean they are lazy, or underachievers, or that you are better than they are. It's okay that they studied accounting at a third rate school and work 35 hours a week for some shitty local firm. That isn't a bad choice. It doesn't make them a failure. It's just a different walk of life.
Okay sure, some students are lazy. Maybe you have friends who mooch off their parents and do nothing. Or other friends with lots of potential but just drink and party. I'm not defending them and saying it's a good choice. But at the same time lots of people are content with just a normal 40 hour/week job, and fill their life with family, friends, and hobbies. You know what the worst part is? Many of those people are happier than 'us.' How happy do you think the average target/MBA banker is? Sure we all post on WSO and get a false sense of superiority for making marginally more money than others and attending 'prestigious' schools and 'prestigious' firms. Well what the fuck is prestige? Because I think it's just the specter of meaning we wrap around ourselves so that when we fall asleep at night deeply unhappy, we convince ourselves we are better than others.
Well, that's bullshit. Many people live fulfilled and meaningful lives with boring decidedly average jobs. But they have wonderful friends and family and are truly happy. And lots of Harvard MBAs go to sleep alone and profoundly depressed because they spent their entire life doing what was 'prestigious' and 'successful' and then find themselves miserable. Look, I'm not saying all of them are miserable. There is a subset of bankers who enjoy the job and the career, and good for them. But if you find yourself looking down on others for not being as 'career oriented' as you are and not realizing what the 'top' investment bank firms are or not caring about 'prestige' than I suggest you take a long introspective look at your reasons for pursuing a career.
Being humble, modest, and respectful, is not only virtuous, but it tends to be associated with those who are both successful and fulfilled. Being maligned and egotistical is a sign of insecurity and even if you do find career success, I think it's a sad way to live.
bullshit. jim isn't happy at all. in fact he's miserable. keep watching the office and see what happens with jim. I won't ruin it for you. his career is NOT down on the list of what defines him.
I know, i know, like you said, "it's just a tv show." I just had to throw that in there as an office fan :)
One of the best posts I've read in a while.
Work in sales for F500. That's what I did. Admittedly and regretfully (only to an extent), I was one at a non-target that took longer than most on this board to straighten myself up. I partied hard (I'm talking black out 3-4 nights/wk and 4-5 nights/wk at the bar) and definitely feel like I lost some mental sharpness (used to do just fine w/minimal studying on tests).
Luckily, I landed an offer in sales, converted over to consulting and then went back for my MBA (also at a non-target). I worked hard and got a gig working 40 hrs/wk at a boutique IB group and parlayed that into a FT offer at a MM IB group.
Part of me would do it over because I may have been able to land at a BB, then go to HWSB (that's right, I like Booth) and get into a megafund or large MM PE shop.
But, here I am a little behind most (27 yo) as an associate. At least I can say I enjoyed the shit out of undergrad.
they enroll in a JD/MBA program like me and perish into an eternal sea of fire, debt, and sorrow.
LOL. How in the world you spend 4 years is beyond me. Even 3.5 (assuming summer classes) seems like too much.
Educational debt and high cost of living is going to be the bane of 99% of the youth these days.
so is banking the only thing that can be called a "career" here and bankers the only ones that make a lot of money? i just came from a developing country and don't much about how thing work here in the States
Here's my story and my plan...do I have any hope?
First of all, I'm in agreement with almost, if not all of the criticisms of the non-target students. Let me start off by saying I'm not like them. I have big dreams and I understand why employers definitely do not favor these students. Unfortunately, I couldn't afford to go to a top-tier school even if I could have gotten in/knew what I wanted to do at the time. I didn't know I wanted to do Finance until I was 20.
I went to SIUC (obviously a non-target) and graduated in May 2012 with my B.S. in Finance (specialization in Investments). I've been working 30+ hours and going to school basically from the time I was 16 at minimum wage type jobs. However, I did the best I could at doing extra curricular's outside of school. The three most important of these include Saluki Student Investment Fund, R.I.S.E. XI (2011), and Mises University.
Things I did with Saluki Student Investment Fund (SSIF):
Aided in presentation to clients bringing assets under management from approximately $350,000 to $1,000,000
Collaborated in creating an annual report for the client to assess the performance of the fund
Participated in presentation to alumni leading up to a $10,000 donation to obtain Bloomberg for the College of Business
Coordinated with sector team to make S&P 400 Mid-Cap Index investment decisions
Acquired knowledge of and applied cash flow and dividend growth models to company financials for valuation
Advanced working knowledge of Microsoft Excel and PowerPoint through the involvement in multiple company valuations and presentations
R.I.S.E.:
I think everyone here knows what R.I.S.E. is.
Mises University:
This was a week long Austrian Economics Conference/School, where the students attended 40 hours of classroom lectures, discussed topics with faculty and students, and participated in an optional exam at the end.
Throughout school, I wasn't financially able to do internships. So, I didn't. I did the best at networking I could, but unfortunately I failed to see what effective networking was until recently. Right now, I work two lower wage jobs just to be able to save some money for now. I'm just now getting on my feet after trying to move to California last year. I had a couple of interviews out there at the time. One was with Luminous Capital for a Client Relationship Manager, which would have been perfect. I made it to the second to last round of interviews.
I haven't been able to do much over the last year. I've been working two jobs for basically the whole year. I'm supposed to be moving to St. Louis, MO towards the end of this year, but there don't seem to be a whole lot of options for me...at least in positions that I'm qualified for. The best plan I have come up with is to save enough money to be able to survive on a Teller's wages for a year. Throughout the year I can take my CFA level 1, put together a work portfolio, transfer to the local Toastmaster's, and network my ass off...and have an Analyst position in about a year or more.
I'd appreciate anyone's advice, comments, and criticisms. I'm very open-minded. I will not be offended.
Thanks so much in advance! :)
You aren't going to get an analyst position on wall street. Period. Not target, no relevant work experience and no internships. It can happen in your situation, but its basically like throwing up a hail mary in the dark with 30 defenders on your receiver.
My honest advice, if you have a solid GPA, screen for an officer commissioning program. You will make more in that career than probably 97% of people if you count your retirement package. OR, get out and use the post 9/11 to fund an MBA and re-invent yourself.
Ye olde unemployment line
I'm not unemployed, just very much underemployed. I looking for some real advice, if anyone has any. I've been reading everything I find on here.
I didnt read the whole thread but I worked at my school's career center and at the end of every semester it goes like this: Student: hi I am looking for a job. me: uhh... ok what kind? Student: anything business related? Me: ok have you done any internships? Student: no Me: when do you graduate? Student: next week...
Most people will laugh at students like these and think they're "dumb" and whatnot, but this is actually quite common. Even at "target" schools it occurs. At non-targets it's of course even more typical.
They're usually students from humble backgrounds who never had guidance in their lives with respect to this type of stuff. If you never had anyone in your life to give you direction or encourage you to do X, Y, and Z, chances are you'll end up spending your college summers the same way you spent your K-12 summers. Just the way it goes.
From what I have seen, it is not the end of the world. While non-target kids who weren't motivated might not go to the Big 4 or a well known FLDP, etc. they usually settle for a lesser version such as a FLDP or just a financial analyst position at a smaller company or they may go to a regional accounting firm rather than the Big 4.
At the company I am working at right now, there are quite a few lifers (kind of like the P&G and GE structure), and they come from all sorts of backgrounds. When I have talked with them casually, many do wish they started at, say, PwC instead of a regional firm or something similiar, but now they are doing alright for themselves. Most of my corpdev department is made up of ex-auditors.
My last comment that I have to make is that some people are not "aware" or "mature" later. I grew up being a bum, pretty much all the way til the last 2 years of HS. All the other kids around me were highly motivated since they were young. So while at that point of college applications I was pretty screwed and they got into far better schools, it's never to late to start anew. My resume and experiences today without a doubt matches some of the top kids that got into top schools.
I hate to bring back old threads from the dead, but I think this is an important one.
A lot of "average kids" simply don't have the guidance that they're best off taking internships during college summers to put themselves on the right foot out of college. If you come from a lower-class or middle-class family, you probably don't understand the importance of this. Your parents probably didn't go to college or did but work in low-paying/non-competitive fields.
Or maybe realize that internships are important somewhere along the way, but fret about how they would go about applying, networking, etc. And then if they're lucky enough to get it, finding a place to live, and affording rent, utilities, and living expenses in the summer in some city they've never been to. And all this during the course of a busy school year. It's something way out of their comfort zone.
Plus, there's no sense of urgency anyway. It's okay that they're broke given they're still within the comfort of college or have their parents to lean on, so they technically don't need a job until after college. So they figure why put all that on my plate when I don't need to...
Many kids also use the entirety of college as a trial period to feel out their preferences are and go from there. They don't take internships or start considering their job prospects until either as a senior or after senior year.
For IB/high finance, you're putting yourself at a huge advantage if you knew that that's what you wanted to do since at least age 17/18. Other people don't become interested until 21 and are out of luck. Some people don't know what they want to do in life until 25 or later.
Most Americans will naturally work about 35-40 hours per week and earn about $50K a year given that's what the market dictates. (Other countries the hours are often a bit lower on average, and Americans with their 40-hour work weeks are considered "workaholics.") But a lot of people are content with this. And if you grew up poor, making $50K is probably more money than you know what to do with anyway.
So much truth. While my mom who raised me was educated and makes good money, I barely received any actual counseling or guidance. She pushed me to pursue internships, but for the last 3 years of my college life that was just a meaningless word. I didn't even know what Finance entailed. Of course, this is mostly my own fault, and not hers, because I simply should've been more motivated to find out. She still knows nothing about the industry, and is extremely "proud" of the crappy internship that I just scored (administrative/accounting) because it is at a nice sounding company. I honestly just wish that I was more aware early in life.
I also matured late... In just about every aspect mentally, as well as physically. My puberty started at around 16 maybe, so I was really really a late bloomer.
My sister, on the other hand, is in high school and already extremely motivated. I don't think she is smarter than me, but being aware 4 years earlier than I was is certainly going to ensure that her career goes way beyond mine.
Oh well, that's just life I guess. It ain't always fair.
I made my decision on where to go to college based on a Google search of which profession made the most money. Turns out at that time, International business people made more than civil engineers. So, yes to recap I had so fickle of understanding of what college was about that I chose my college because it was better ranked for IB than the other one was and that was the major I decided on, which I didn't end up getting btw.
Before this stroke of genius, the only way I thought about schools was in terms of how they were in football. One of the people I played with in high school got to go to Dartmouth because of football. By the time, I was a senior I was bigger and stronger than he was, maybe not faster though. But "any school that wasn't 1a wasn't worth going to play football for."
So basically the answer is just total ignorance as to the whole process. I had 0 information about jobs outside of a doctor or lawyer or pretty much business person. (As a side note people who do the first two end up fine normally) I only applied to one college to begin with and I decided after randomly being invited to your another to apply to it. As far as ivies go, I knew they were prestigious, I didn't have a chance, and they were far away.
Point of all this is that if you're that ignorant coming in, it won't get much better in four years being surrounded by more beautiful girls than you'll interact with in all of the time after college. You need a parent or family friend pushing you to do the things necessary to succeed. Also, if at a non-target do a stem major, no exceptions.
get laid not sit on this fucking forum all day. could you be anymore close minded? grow up, you're no better than anyone else.
@Bigass_Spider" Just saying, it was sort of pointless to try and keep it "anonymous" where the ARMY commander went to school in the north east (tell me it isn't west point). Lol just a tip for future ways of telling stories. Also, I don't think your commander's attitude was representative of most military officers. Definitely mimics enlisted though.
While I'm in this thread btw, there are a lot of non-target people that end up as doctors, lawyers, engineers working in lower cost of living cities making great money. Even if you go to a non-target you're doing better than 75% of people that don't go to college at all.
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