The Price of Success: Friends

econ_guru:

Throughout the past few years I've noticed that some of my closest relationships have deteriorated as it became more clear that I was on a fast-track in Finance while others were languishing with bad grades and not-so-prestigious (or non-existent) internships.

So your friendships deteriorated because their grades weren't as good and their internships weren't as prestigious as yours?

Find something far away from finance that you can do every weekend where nobody cares who you are or what you do during the week. And then make sure you don't make an issue of it.

....

i want to hit you.

as ridiculous as this post sounds, i can relate. i've seen it happen to others, and i've felt it happen to me. its all relative though, right? make friends with people better than you. and your true true friends are never going to leave. the petty jealous ones that do aren't they type of people you should be surrounding yourself with anyway

I'm assuming you're currently an undergrad, right? It completely depends on the personality of your friends to begin with and which school you're at. I'm at a target and yet my friendships didn't deteriorate at all. What exactly do you mean by "fast track" in finance? Do you mean that you didn't have enough time to go out and instead were studying all the time? If this is the case, I would actually advise slowing down a little bit and having some fun in college, because everyone should easily be able to have a little bit of time to hang out with friends and develop relationships in college, regardless of the courseload. As an aside, how exactly do internships (assuming they're during the summer) affect your ability to maintain friends?

There's a lot of uncertainty in my knowledge of what's going on but initially it sounds like you're either losing friends because you're not spending enough time with them, and you could do that if you made some time for it, or you're losing friends because they're just not the kinds of people who can thrive around those who do well in school, in which case, I would seek to cultivate new relationships based on what activities you're involved in.

Yes, undergrad, semi-target. Thanks for the replies...to those of you who are aggravated by it, the purpose of the post was to elicit your experiences...I mean, it's a simple dilemma regarding the balance between social life and career...and the surprising repercussions from achieving a little more than those around you (I mean comon, this is WSO)

I think this industry attracts a specific personality type more-so than any other area of work...and it's somewhat abnormal perks, pay and glamour can cause envy. If that seems ridiculous, just look at the hatred towards Wall Street in this country. At the end of the day, I'm just a little taken aback by the kind of biological-threatened response from people I've grown up with... and I'm curious how people have fared with this.

Most of my friends are not into the whole finance thing and I think that helps a lot.

I can definitely relate to the OP. It seems like all I think about is money, getting the next better job/internship, networking etc. On a good night I get home at 7:30-8. Not much time for my friends. The disconnect is becoming larger than ever b/c all they wanna do is drink and sit around while i've got to be constantly moving. It's like I never stop thinking and working, whether it be work work or personal life work (cleaning, laundry, etc).. A lot of people think I'm an asshole (which may be true sometimes) but I think it's mostly due to irritability from lack of sleep and the fact that b/c I work so much, I can't stand people now that just sit around and waste their life away...which just so happens to encompass most of my friends. Kinda sucks sometimes but I have an attractive gf who I really like and besides the lack of sleep, I actually enjoy investment banking. i'm odd, i know. Well besides the pointless edit overhauls that partners will give me but that's a completely different topic (happened today....)

Also, I'd like to put it out there... my roommate (very close friend) and I have noticed how some people just hate me really for no good reason (I swear, it's true) and we came to the conclusion that it's caused by jealousy "b/c i've got my shit together" (his words). I do think I have a great life and can be overconfident at times but I consciously try to remain humble... That's really the only answer I've got b/c I'm mostly a laid back decent guy.

Anyone else experience this?

I think this industry attracts a specific personality type more-so than any other area of work...and it's somewhat abnormal perks, pay and glamour can cause envy. If that seems ridiculous, just look at the hatred towards Wall Street in this country. At the end of the day, I'm just a little taken aback by the kind of biological-threatened response from people I've grown up with... and I'm curious how people have fared with this.

Being the guy who drives around a rusty honda who gets to work in this industry and gets to say he is heading to school X is hilarious, but the way to keep friends is to be willing to genuinely view yourself as being at their level. If you like prestige, you're always going to have trouble with friendships. THANK GOD, though, that that's not what life is about. And thank god that it's a lot of fun for you and everyone else if you have the ability to pop those folks living in the prestige bubble. "Oh? You work at goldman sacks? No kidding, me too! Oh, it's spelled with an 'h'? I had no idea, I'm not well versed in grammar!"

Accomplishing Z did not change you. You are still the same person you were when you made those friends. So stay that person, and if you can, find a way to get Z to rub off on them and make them better people. But if you can't, relationships and people are stronger and more important than accomplishments.

Not that I am in your situation, but I think you already hit it perfectly - modesty is the key. It sounds bad but play your success down in front of people you care about because they envy you and are trying to find a way to justify their situation. On the other hand, it is always better to associate with people who are better than you.

there is something wrong with them or something wrong with you. better be sure which one it is.

.

My friends and I are a unit son. Bitches, money, sex...nothing comes inbetween.

My childhood bestfriend still lives with his parents and earns a fifth of my pay. It dont matter. True friendship is golden. It's also important to be humble because as TDSWIM said, our generation is struggling. Keep that "I work in finance" card in the pocket. People respect you more.

And a +1 to everythin Illini has said.

as much as it is nice to catch up with old friends, the fact is that we all grow apart over time. absolutely friends get jealous very easily because people benchmark their success as individuals not against random people but with people they know aka close friends. I think you should start chillin with guys that are as motivated and hungry as you are - not necessarily in IB or finance of any sort, but in anything really. I would love to smash bars with a lawyer, or a doctor who has that drives and values your success. if you were a hot girl, it wouldn't be fun rockin out to clubs with your whale friend now would it? that's why wolves travel in packs son.

Just don't talk about work if you want to hang out with them. You must talk about work too much.

Troll.

Didn't read all the comments, as always, but I don't think you're being pretentious or anything here. I saw this happen in school with some of my "closest" friends. It's not that they're necessarily mad at you for having gotten a good job while they're still scrambling to find anything, it seemed more to me that the reason there's a divide between you after the recruiting process ends is because every time they see you or start talking about anything related to the future, business, etc. they're reminded that they "failed." I have a few friends who tried to make the jump from IB to PE/HF recently and did a less than stellar job, and I try to keep our conversation as far away from the workplace, finances, or anything related as possible and things are usually fine. If we start on those topics they usually get into mope-mode and start making me feel uncomfortable about having any level of success. That's not what friends are for as far as I know...

i only tell ppl i work in car dealership

sometimes i tell them i'm an underwriter at a subprime auto loan company

/\ you better be getting laid everynight with a job like that

This is common among all groups of people. Most people tend to gravitate towards those in a similar class of wealth and access.

It has not happened to me as much because my closest friends have one super common ground: sports. We play pick-up ball, have multiple fantasy leagues and we are all obsessed with golf. This takes the wealth/job discrepancy out of it. However, I have noticed that as soon as the conversation turns to business or upcoming planned trips, etc (i.e., larger purchases, etc), some tend to bow out of the conversation.

No time for the comment so I skipped them all.

I think it would only happens if all your friends are still into the whole "ibanking is the dream job" thing. People would realize after a few years of work that ibanking is certainly not the only way to money. I personally tend to believe that it is a bit of a problem on your side as well if you think good grades and prestigious internship is success. Totally no offence, but maybe you somehow feel superior / show that you are in a superior position when you are among your friends ?

Life is long and we should all understand that Finance is "just another job" / " just another career path ".

I myself went to a top 3 Univ. in UK. Some of my classmates are in their last year of PhD and joining top consultancy firms, some carry on with the post-doc research path whilst some go into other careers. I feel that we keep the relationship pretty well as it was back in Univ.

There was this one guy (classmate at univ.), however, that finally managed to break into banking (not BB, prob. not even 2nd tier bank and it is a year-long internship). He basically spent a lot of time switching between law / language studies since we graduated. Last time we chatted, I asked him how he is and I got a " Fuck law, I am in banking now. " reply.

Now that is the kind of mindset I would've expected from a 2nd year / 3rd year Univ. student who "thinks" he is destined to do banking in his life.

I can sort of imagine if the OP is surrounded by people like my old classmate, similar shit could happen that makes the OP feels this way.

My advice is to try and do something together from time to time that does not relate to career status. Univ. friends are great to keep for life.

Problem is the people you might of went to high school with... if you start doing well in your career and bump into them.. you just sit there and realize that what we consider meaningful... our jobs, advancement, success, going to b-school, etc are irrelevant to them because they have no means of relating to that. We all are driven by different things and people who really want to advance in their career will often sacrifice the personal relationships for their professional advancement. Really.. how many freaking friends do you need? Do you think they're all really your friends? Dude, if you have 3-5 real good friends and your family the rest is largely BS anyway. I think it helps to have friends outside your career path though. Not talking about work provides a wind-down from the daily grind.

I am one of those people who prides myself on what I accomplish but never even bring it up in conversation with people. Humility will go a long way and people will respect you 10X more for it.

I think about it this way: our careers are fragile. The things we build up for ourselves, the success we accumulate, our entrees into "target" schools, MBB, BB, etc. can all be gone in an instant. The financial crisis, post-dotcom bubble, etc. are all reminders of that. I think about what I would be left with if it all went away and then decide if my eggs are in the right basket.

What matters most to me is the fact that I have a loving family and a group of friends that have been there for me since middle school. We have achieved varying levels of success in life but you wouldn't know it.

I have a kickass job at an MBB right now but I don't let myself feel special because of it. When people ask me what I do, I just say I'm in consulting. I never say what firm unless I really get pushed. Most people at my firm are very proud to be there, and I am no exception. I am thankful to have this chance. But so many people come and go from these places that very few people are remembered. Each new class of people comes in thinking they are the shit but in two years time half of them will be gone and most of the rest in another two.

I'd much rather hitch my horse to more meaningful things in life. But how you define meaning is for everyone to figure out on their own.

The only relationships you really need are 3-4 close lifelong friends, family members and a significant other. As people get older, they're all going to go their separate paths. All you really need is to find someone you love to get married with and focus on your family + kids with 3-4 close friends. There's nothing wrong with being career focused. I'd rather be that guy who has put in the time to find the career that I love and enjoy going to every morning with high salary to buy my residence in cash.

On the outside those high school or college friends might seem happy working a dead end job for shit pay and content in life, but almost guaranteed that if you go drink with them and really learn their troubles, you will find the truth.

Have no friends not equal to yourself. "Confucius"

Almost everyone gave you very good advice OP. Whether he is trolling or not, the advice are still valid.

All of your feedback has been enormously helpful. I think this has been a good dialogue. I do believe this is an issue that a number of people face - so I hope I'm not the only one learning a thing or two.

I've run through all your comments and summarized them (though crudely) into three categories:

Balanced, smart advice from selfless monkeys: (special thanks to IlliniProgrammer) 1. Don’t get trapped in your career; find a new activity that will help you relate to others. 2. Be more on their level: avoid at all costs talking about your career/success. 3. Find common ground with everyone you interact with. 4. You don’t need a hundred friends. Stay close with family and find a few close friends. 5. Life is fragile. Your career can fall apart. If you take your job out of the picture, what’s left?

It’s not you, it’s them: 1. Make friends who are smarter, more powerful than you who push your limits. If you’re hanging out with losers, ditch them and find people who match your ambition.
2. Don’t force friendships that now look vacuous; the past is a sunk cost. Move on. 3. The more you put your happiness into how people view you, the less happy you will be. Screw them, gain power, win. Or as Birdman would say, “I lost too many friends but I won too many bets.”

It’s you, not them. 1. Your friends are exhausted from your apparent “success” and your flawless Linkedin profile. You’re being cocky. Don’t rub it in their faces. 2. You act like a 40-year-old. It’s college, man? Act cool and take a hit from this.

Thanks everyone.

Good post OP and very good advice from others. I have myself witnessed this before. One thing I can recommend is to not tell your friends of any new accomplishments in school or of work. Reality is people will get jealous. Some of my best friends (I believed) changed there mood when I talked about a recent success. Like others said, DONT talk about success and your futures plans for your career with everyone. In your heart you want them to do better also, help them. But dont let them derail your career path.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that what you believe is jealousy is ether outright made-up in your head or is more just tiredness from you being a shtty friend. I've seen plenty of people I went to college and even HS with act like their career puts them above other people for some unknown reason and it just makes them look like pompous idiots.

ip, um... is that your car?

Nah, success as a trader (or banker or auditor or doctor or anything else) doesn't say a whole lot to me about the value of a person. As you know, there are lots of very happy and unhappy people in the profession, regardless of their professional success, so focusing squarely on that is a great way to end up unhappy, unfulfilled, and alone.

Additionally, there is a tendency for people to even define someone's professional success entirely on their net worth, which is almost just as laughable, since there are plenty of fools who got to where they are through unethical behavior, dumb-luck, nepotism, or some combination of all of those. A lot of people don't realize how fortunate they are to have been afforded the opportunities all of us have and lack humility to understand that it is incredibly uncommon for someone to be in such a fortunate position.

I was certainly abrasive in my comments, but many posters have done nothing other than solidify that impression. He thinks it is not he, but his friends, who have problems. I've yet to see that happen with anybody I know--surely people do grow apart with age, maturity, etc., but that is not the same as jealousy.

EDIT: More ppl than just the OP

Do you guys honestly talk about work with your friends?

We just crush micro brews or Miller Lites (much better than PBR, IP) and talk about random nonsense.

Do you guys honestly talk about work with your friends?

We just crush micro brews or Miller Lites (much better than PBR, IP) and talk about random nonsense.

None of my friends really have any clue about different areas of finance, all my friends either think i am an accountant or Shia LaDeustch from Wall Street 2...

If you are still in college you are definitionally not on any "fast track" and if you already have trouble relating to friends then that is problem and it is probably just because you are acting like a tool. You are a college student and have accomplished literally nothing, so get over yourself.

That said, this does become an issue if you are making a good amount of money...for some reason it is really hard to separate money from friendships (with guys only, for some reason girls who are friends seem easier about this subject). I have found that as I have become more successful in my career it has definitely changed alot of relationships for the worse. I still have a tight circle of people from back in the day where we can just have a beer and bullshit but the money issue is a bit of a hinderance and creates awkwardness around alot of things that used to be very simple. Even little things like going to a basketball game or dinner can be really weird because that subtext hangs over everything...eventually it just becomes more awkwardness then its worth. I have a hard time explaining why/how it happens but it does. It is a somewhat sad fact that alot of people chase money because they think it will be helpful socially when in the end making alot of money can be very isolating.

Jealousy pretty much rears its ugly head when you or some of your friends are doing good. One thing that may help clear out the awkwardness is not to show-off. Do that to your other douchey colleagues but not to your real friends.

If you want a friend, get a dog.

Wake up, will ya, pal? If you're not inside, you're outside, okay? And I'm not talking a $400,000 a year working Wall Street stiff flying first class and being comfortable, I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player, or nothing.

It's hard for guys to be friends. Women can do it if they don't work at the same company.

All of my friends from grad school are more or less in the same boat as me with respect to career trajectory so no issues there. The rest of my friends have no interest in finance/business and aren't driven by money so no issues there either.

So my advice is to either surround yourself with people who are as successful as yourself, or people who don't define their self worth by how much they make or how prestigious their job title is. Preferably both.

I have my own little story about losing a friend to IB.

He was one of my closest friends in university. We were roommates freshman year. Though we didn't do everything together, living with someone for that long, you develop an affinity. We talked a lot about getting into b-school and dreamt about living the high life afterwards.

In sophomore year, we still hung out and made some effort to connect. In the summer we both got our acceptances into b-school and later on found out we'd be classmates.

In the beginning of b-school, we still hung out occasionally, did some studying together. But then once marks came out, things changed. He's very personable, you see. He targeted those with high marks and made social circles around them. Because my marks sucked, I was left out.

Now, he's signed to a BB while I'm still looking for work. We don't talk anymore, and any efforts I've made to reconnect have been responded to coldly. I still miss him, if anything because he was probably the first friend I made in university.

I can totally relate, not just from under-grad but since I was a kid. A few of my closest friends barely went to college - instead opting for golf, construction, etc. My best friend is crushing it as a consultant. Doesn't matter, I don't see or talk to any of them as often as I used to. That's what happens to anyone with a half decent career. Make the most of what little free time you have - ditto captain radio, crush the brews and shoot the shit.