How can a pod analyst make 8 figures??
Can someone please explain how a senior analyst at C/M can make 8 figures? I don’t know the person in question well and heard their comp through someone else, but how is that even possible? He’s a young guy and has an impressive resume, it’s just a crazy amount of money for someone his age.
I understand how pod guys can get paid way way more than other buyside careers in good years since pay is formulaic and you can have a big book as an analyst at C/M, but I didn’t realize the magnitude could be this large. I’m sure it’s not the norm (my close pod friends usually make like low to mid 7 figures), but I struggle to see the math on 8 figures unless it was an unbelievable year.
Is it totally unreasonable for HF analysts to make 8 figures in their late 20s early 30s in a huge year? Or is that the new norm with the deals some of these pod senior analysts have on their carve outs? And don’t get me started on these guarantees.
Don’t think that common. Maybe only 40-70% of risk taking analysts make $10 million or more in a year, the rest closer to $5
I think it’s more like 40-70% of good analysts at C/M (more at C, less at M given there are more pods at M than C) have a chance to make $5-10m, meaning they have a large enough carve-out and have a high enough negotiated payout with their PM.
I thought about it. To make 8 figs, you’d need to make >100 bucks which can be done on 750-1bn of gross in a good year. That’s a good year but it’s not impossible, definitely happens to good analysts.
I have more insight into C than M, but I’ve heard of C analysts making 100 bucks in a single year, so that makes sense.
What % of good analysts at the top 2 platforms make 8 gigs? Maybe less than 5%, but it happens. A lot do make $1-5m though. Some make higher.
Fact check: true. You are correct that 0.0001% is less than 5%.
i'm not sure why this got ms. i worked there - it's accurate
I have a friend who is an incoming associate at C and he said that average analyst pay was >1mm and PM pay was maybe closer to 4mm. Neither of us know what we are talking about but 5mm analyst average seems a bit ridiculous
Me as a second year IB analyst seeing these (fake) numbers after signing a PE offer instead of going to a MMHF
Damn what’s his background and age
Background doesn’t matter buddy u either have it or u don’t only one way to find out
These comments are asinine. Let’s look at MLP. They are 60bn so in a good year to net 10% returns they will make around 10-12bn of PnL. They have 300 teams. That means that each team on average is making 35m of PnL per year. Oh and remember that the distribution of PnL (just like salaries etc) is heavily power law - single pods like WQ, Symmetry, SRBL make 1-2 Bn of PnL each. So that means that if you’re not on one of those huge PnL generating teams the average PnL is even lower.
So all of this is to say that if the average team is only generating 20-30m per year to say that typical analysts are getting paid millions or even generating 8 figures of PnL is just idiotic
That 60bn in AUM doesn't include leverage
Agreed, I dont know a single analyst thats gotten 8 fig comp, across all hf sectors. I think the numbers thrown around on analyst to pm comp ratio are also absurd
So, did you remember to include the roughly 6x leverage taken? For a “certified hedge fund pro” you’d also know that straight line returns aren’t representative of what the firms make and they generally don’t have a fully formulaic payout to LPs but rather take off the top discretionarily meaning only more returns. But hey you’re the pro
Be an extraordinary candidate for a job, then get extremely lucky and place into one of the top 5 pods in the industry (the ones that put up high 9 figure or 10 figure returns with a 15 year track record which are normally not in equities), be great at said job, wait a bit and collect your 10m pay check each year.... Maybe 1 of these caliber of seats comes up every 2 years. If you want to make this much just as a one off, get a carve, be very good and also get lucky, hope PM is also good and gets lucky, will probably get 10m.
If not in equities, what? Credit strategy's ? FX? Commodities?
Wondering this as well
No - the example I’m talking about is equities. I don’t know anything about comp in macro/commodities
The most successful pod of all time and probably bordering of most successful investing/trading team of all time is a citadel commodity pod. That pod alone is responsible for around 15% of citadels all time pnl gains from what ive heard... when I said the 5 I was thinking of 3 commod teams and 2 macro teams but probs more I dont know about so maybe there is a couple super star equities teams ive never heard of but they way risk is allocated and allowed to be used I think it would be very very hard for an equities team to put up the same numbers as these guys.
Macro based Pods. They can take bigger swings and utilize more leverage.
do you have any insight into which pods these actually are? especially on the L/S equity side?
So many bad responses here
From someone who’s been at a Big 4 pod, an analyst making 8 figures is virtually impossible, and only outlier cases (massive team + career performance). 7 figures is definitely doable. Plenty of analysts with a carve making LSD to MSD millions at least once in their career. But again ppl act as if it’s easy. It’s very hard & yes while you have the opportunity every year to making 7 figures, it’s by no means easy or a guarentee, you could end up with a 100k bonus or nothing at all.
PMs are the only ones where making 8 figures are more probable (but still dependent on returns).
^^^this
I almost feel like people are getting 8 figure PnL confused with 8 figure bonus. I mean for a senior analyst, come on...
I agree but in all seriousness, there are analysts at C that have made >100 in pnl in a year and several hundred over a few years.
Not many, but they exist. And there are a decent chunk at C and M making $30-70 in PnL as an analyst. That range supports L-MSD comp.
It’s not easy, yes, but if you have 5-7 years of experience and have $30-40 of $vol, those are pretty reasonable outcomes.
There are interns making mid six figures working in biz dev (top groups). Ofc 40-70% of analysts make 8 fig... Heard of this kid in the academy that took home a 9fig payday... kid is a rockstar, doesn't use his mouse, or even keyboard. Just uses his mind.
I would say they deserve the pay, the industry is already hard enough to break into and even tougher to work in. Congrats to them
everyone here that's verified is saying it's bs (for the most part) and those who are not are saying how common it is. hmmm...wonder who's right (sarcasm)
most people bust their butt annually to make mid six figures. bunch of people get zero
I didn’t comment, but all I’ll say is I worked at C and think both sides are right. The best analysts would do 70m 80m or more - there was a year this one guy did 150 (he was a pretty senior analyst and had a lot of experience). It happens. It definitely does happen and you can’t deny it. C has what 50-60 teams in the US? Each with ~2 analysts on average? Yes - at least 10 of those 120 analysts are doing >$50m of PnL - that’s a fact you’ve either seen the data or you haven’t. I have seen it. 10/120 is not 0.0000001%. It’s 8-9%.
Yes, the average analyst is probably doing $5-15m of PnL. What you guys are missing is the above average camp doing $20-40m (maybe 20-30 out of the 120, with the rest of the 120 not making as much). That math points to ~1/3 of analysts at C (the best platform) making at least LSD-MSD millions, which is totally reasonable and feels right anecdotally. Did you expect less for the best platform with the best analysts? I didn’t. The good analysts I know there consistently make MSD millions, it’s not like that’s totally unreasonable and unrealistic. Some have a repeatable process, can do $20-40m+ every year, and have good deals with their PMs. Is there 2/3 of analysts that probably make $500k-1.5m? Yes. But the top third of analysts at C get paid - not the top 5%. That’s too punitive.
Someone brought up “if you make that much as an analyst, you’d be stupid to not become a PM elsewhere”. Not quite. A lot of analysts are already maxed out on their % of PnL (with zero netting risk), and if they were to spin-out, they’d end up in a spot where they need to 1. Focus less on their coverage / more on managing people and sub books, 2. Need to split their economics with people under them and eat netting risk, which often means little to no incremental upside for greater risk. Some people just don’t want to spin out and have great relationships with their PMs.
Do you have insight on the other platforms? And at C, is it Surveyor where the analysts actually make thay up, and GE/Ashler are a tier below?
Again it's possible for C analysts to make 50-100m but that is an extreme outlier.. C entire pods making 100m+ are already on Ken's radar. Pretty easy to do the math again e.g. C is 60bn so in a +15% year they are probably making slightly less than $20b of gross PnL
Out of that $20b, $1-2b from GQS, $1-2b from GFI, $2-3b from Commods, $1-2bn from Credit so that leaves around $10-12bn across the 3 equity businesses. You said it yourself there are 60 equity teams in the US and maybe 30-40 teams internationally. There is also a massive alpha capture book that is generating $1-2bn of PnL.
So we're at $100m of PnL on average. Split out the 5ish teams that are consistently generating $500m+ and you have probably an average PnL of 60-70m per pod. I'm sorry but how does that mean that analysts are expected to generate 20-40m+? If I was an analyst generating the bulk of the PnL of the pod I would leave..
Wow
x
Someone laid it out above but rough math would typically be
$1-3bn in GMV, give or take x 1-5% return (3% is what they target but this would be considered a good/great yr) x 15-20% take of that PnL roughly, that's the team comp thereabouts
PM usually takes north of 50%, can be anywhere between 50 - 80% in reality just depends on other team members' seniority/contributions. I don't know how the carves get accounted for say Citadel's analysts who likely get some of the PM book PnL but also have their own PnL to manage
Let's say team of 4 (PM + 3 mid-level/senior analysts). Managing $2bn at 3% return = $60m in PnL x 20% = $12m to pay the team
You'd probably think that the PM pays themselves north of $6m, or for ease of math the PM takes $6m and each analyst gets ~$2m on average
The top top books tend to be the macro guys generating 9-figure PnL on > $3bn in GMV but with similar take rate structures, perhaps longer tenured PMs get more favorable take rates (perhaps 25-30%) but this doesn't seem to be the norm at most places
If you wanted to solve for book x return for what an analyst would need to make 8 figures in a year just do the math... you'd probably need > $4bn in GMV and a 5% return w/ less analysts to get closer to $10m/analyst.. just very very rare
No you’re not thinking about it properly because you don’t work at a pod.
The entire point is yes, it’s rare, but at C, analysts have their own books and some can make over 100m PnL, which can be 10%+ roGMV. It’s possible it’s just rare
Not sure why above poster got MS. It’s true that at C, you get your own book as an analyst and if you’re lucky to be the guy who made a 100m that year, you’ll get your 10% take rate on that.
It’s rare, but not impossible. At pods like C/M, comp is heavily tied to performance. If a senior analyst has a large book and crushes it in a great year, 8 figures can happen, especially with carve-outs or big bonuses. It’s not the norm, but in this industry, big money can come fast with the right results.
I don't understand why this forum overcomplicates so many things, especially comp. I get that it's fun to fantasize about making 8 figs no matter how young or old you are, but detracts your time/energy from doing things that would you closer to doing well at work and getting closer to that comp potential.
Yes, 8 figs is close to impossible. But it is not impossible.
Requires the right setup, drive, luck, and lot of other factors to fall into place.
I know a fairly young analyst at C that made $9m. As someone laid out, your comp is tied to your PnL and % payout - this person made over $100m in PnL. He had a big sleeve (or PBG as they call it), great year, and had a high enough payout. Play around with book size and HSD % payout to solve for performance required to hit 8 figure bonus. I agree with those saying it’s hard, but I’m just telling you it is doable. A much more reasonable outcome is an analyst making $20-50m of PnL and taking home $1.5-5m. I think the vast majority of friends I have that are the analyst title at C sit in that range, the $9m is an outlier and something I’d expect from a PM.
This person has since become a PM
How old was he, and was that an outlier year for him as well (or did he consistently perform well)? What did he do differently?
I know of a few cases of senior analysts at the top pods at C generating >$200m of PnL cumulatively over 5 years that have decided to stay as analysts for a while. I don't know their comp, but based on the math, definitely fits the upper end of your range so checks out. And can confirm - definitely a not-insignificant chunk of analysts making $20-50 of PnL. I think people start talking about analysts making >$40m PnL and at $75+, you're the MVP. Just my observations. At $75, you'd make $6-7.
Sit on the floor, talk to people, be on a big successful team, and you'll hear things! Something to hopefully look forward to
Alright I give up. Time to entertain these HH / BD people. What kind of guarantee would they give senior analyst at larger tiger cub with 7-8 years of HF experience? That blue background C headshot would look pretty sweet on my linkedin.
In all seriousness, I've decided I've seen enough and am ready to make this move. If anyone would be interested I'm considering documenting the process here, definitely would've found something like that helpful when I joined public markets. The numbers I heard after this most recent bonus round (at least in my sector) over there are enough for me to move.
Chuckled at blue background
Buddy of mine said something like $3-4 upfront + clear easy PnL / gross $s deployed bogey year 1 and get another $4-5 = $7-10ish all in for someone with similar background? Came in as a senior analyst but had strong track record at the SM. I've also heard $2 upfront and $3-4 year 1 but don't know specific terms of that one. I feel like I've definitely heard more, need to dig in messages and twtr DMs. Let's be safe and say anywhere between $4-10m for a senior analyst. $10m for a good senior analyst with good track record.
I'm actually very curious on what the PM numbers are. I mean BAM is throwing $ around like it's candy - PG with the $80m guarantee...what kind of dough is C throwing out to PMs?? How much does M/B/P pay the C PM with hundreds of lifetime PnL track record?
I don't understand how all these analysts who are allegedly making 7-8 figures a year have the time to post here, or why they would so freely disclose their personal comp info when that number could easily identify them.
I can confirm at least 2 analysts at C that made >$10MM last year
Not saying sector
Equities?
Yes. Both fairly young
At citadel, fairly senior people (5-7+ years of HF experience) can carry the title analyst. This is a person running a $250-$1.5bn carve out under a PM. So titles make a difference. In this structure, there are a handful that have made 8 figures, but it's not the modal outcome for an analyst. You can think of it as a log-normal distribution where modal outcome is ~$2-3m ($20-40m PnL) extending to the $10m+ range in the tail for analysts doing >$100m PnL. That does happen. I've heard pretty insane stories like an analyst making $80m PnL in 1 day during Covid.
In normal circumstances and at most other firms, this would technically be a PM or sub-PM.
You kids are so lacking in imagination. 20 years ago some kid late 20s made 9 figures P&L on DNDN which skyrocketed on FDA approval. C was less than 10% of the AUM then. I can think of a dozen other examples.
There are plenty of analysts that can make 8 figures, that’s why a formula is nice. It’s rare but there’s a lot of random gaps in the market. You can get lucky, book might be “market neutral” but you can sneak in all kinds of unhedged factors if you have the balls for it
bump
What incremental info are you expecting to get?
Not common, but possible. A senior pod analyst on a big carve-out generating tens of millions in P&L can easily hit 8 figures in a huge year, especially with a generous deal — most peers still land in the low-to-mid 7s.
delete
200k guaranteed
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