Life/Career after being a Portfolio Manager
Hi guys, I was wondering if I could get some career advice from some of the experienced members of this forum. A little bit about me: I'm 30, Quantitative (kind of) PM at a Pod Shop (MLP, Baly, Citadel etc. etc.), working in Chicago. I have 2.5mm-3mm in saved up (it varies due to how investments are going (recently badly)). I'm single but looking to get married and to have a couple of children. I live a very simple life - I rent a shitty apartment, I don't eat out, 100% of my clothes is from Uniqlo, Zara, H&M, I don't have a car or anything valuable, I dislike travelling, my gym fee is $20-30/month, I don't subscribe to Netflix etc. I grew up poor so I'm pretty conservative as you can tell haha.
The problem is, and let's call a spade a spade, my strategy has recently been shit. I'm making 2-3mm a year in PnL and it's simply not enough. Also, I find trading to be very stressful. I trade internationally and I don't like waking up at 3am to check how the Japanese/Hong Kong markets are doing etc. I thought trading would be fun but I think my temperament is not really suited for the job. In addition, I want to have 2-4 children and to have an ordinary family life but I think being a stressed out PM is not really conducive to this. I'm looking at alternative careers that pay okay and do not come with the volatility, stress and unpredictability of PM. After all, it's hard to plan/focus on your life if you don't know whether you'll have a job in 1, 2 years.
So I wanted to ask, what other, more stable jobs can I do? I see some former PMs becoming managers of other traders but I'm not sure how to make that transition. I see people moving into biz dev at MLP etc. but not sure how that pays or how to get my foot in the door. My so-called "advantages" are that I'm fairly quantitative, can code, understand derivatives, futures, macro, quite well and I went to Harvard/Yale/Princeton etc. (if that makes any difference). I don't really want to do something very risky - like start up a firm etc.
Thank you very much everyone for your kind advice. I'm sorry if I've been incoherent with the above. Writing this has made me reflect a bit on my life...
Based on the most helpful WSO content, transitioning from a Portfolio Manager role to a less volatile and stressful career while leveraging your quantitative skills, coding ability, and understanding of derivatives, futures, and macroeconomics is definitely possible. Here are some potential career paths you might consider:
Corporate Development/Strategy:
Risk Management:
Asset Management/Hedge Funds in Non-Trading Roles:
Fintech or Financial Services Technology:
Teaching or Academic Research:
Financial Consulting:
Remember, your prestigious educational background and professional experience are significant assets. They will open doors in many industries, and your conservative lifestyle suggests you have the financial flexibility to explore different options without immediate pressure.
Before making any moves, it might be beneficial to network with professionals in these areas, perhaps through alumni events or professional organizations, to gain a better understanding of what the day-to-day looks like and how your skills can transfer.
Lastly, consider reaching out to a career coach who specializes in finance industry transitions. They can offer personalized advice and help you navigate this change more effectively. Good luck!
Sources: Life after 2 years in Private Equity, Lesser known MBA career options? Looking for advice on what to do post-HBS., Advice on career and the switch into investment banking, Burned out at dream job - time for a change?, No full time offers, seeking life advice?
In your position, I would recommend to go into a sell side role at a bank. Trading would be less stressful as it should be client flow driven, depending on what you do, or into quant/structuring roles as those are non directly risk-taking seats and you defo seem to have the required skillset.
Another route would be to go be a LO PM, looks quite challenging but its doable, would focus on banks AM, they may be more interested in someone with your background.
FWIW I absolutely understand your concern as I have a friend in a similar situation.
Thank you very much for your response. I trade derivatives in FX, rates, equities etc. (most of my focus is on equities) but I've never worked on the sell-side or done any kind of market making. I've only ever traded prop. How difficult is it to move from a prop role at a HF to a market making seat without having done market making previously? I guess the two jobs are similar but there would be quite a few differences such that might make my skillset a poor fit...
You could go into market making but you are right, this might be a tough one to sell as you've never done it before. Would say vanilla FX flow or G10 rates over equity (don't really know how to explain but equity market-making seems way more different to what is done on the buyside, FX & Rates have more in common, regardless of seats).
Another one would be to target a execution trading position on the buyside, ie equity high-touch, equity algo low-touch, global macro,...
Would try to get into AM over HF (less stress) and you are good: right skillset, no PnL tied to your name, nothing to worry about post mkt hours as long as you are sharp during the day. Principal downsides are lower base salary (could still negociate a solid amount with your background) and poor bonus (no PnL so total comp will take a huge hit, especially if in AM). Also it can be difficult to get the job as this would look like a step back for you and employers will question the move, so better to get a compelling story
trader on sell-side all day long. Can make 2-3m with great hours and way less stress.
Good luck getting that seat. Those jobs do exist, but if it was easy to get a seat paying "2-3M with great hours and way less stress", then everyone would be doing it.
Way more seats vs buyside. Obviously not all strategies exist on SS.
you suggest this way too casually.
you generally need to be head of a profitable sellside desk to hit these numbers. no 30yo, non-superstar MM PM with no sellside experience is getting this seat. buyside and sellside success also do not translate each other 1:1 and sellside hiring managers know this. will take years of sellside track record and luck and politics to get here.
absolute not in fixed income. two of my close friends trade a large banks and make that money without being the heads.
Honestly you should 100% stick it out in your current PM role for as long as you can (2-5 years) then make the shift to a cushier role (doesnt matter what) after you have $5M+ and are set for life
3M saved up from 2-3M a year in PnL. Nice!
I would get an MBA, from there you could do long only asset management or go corporate. Good luck.
If your PNL is weak and you're thinking of leaving anyway, then the traditional play here is to bet your whole risk limit on some high-risk/high-reward lottery ticket trade. If it pays off, great! If not, then you'll get fired, but it sounds like you're worried about that happening anyway, so you're no worse off.
Currently looking into related topics due to personal reason. Have you considered pursuing the long-term path towards management/operations in the back office?
How much do such roles pay? I've seen other traders move there but it seems to be a bad career choice if the pay is substantially less.
Feels like you're gloating. $3mm is like $250k of pre tax / $200k post tax income. You could probably achieve your goals of a modest family life without even working. Find a spouse who can maybe work a cushy job for health insurance and you're golden. Or work another 2-4 years to turn $3mm into $5mm and you don't even need that.
I think compared to a lot of people in the HF industry, 3mm is pretty modest...I'm not trying to gloat.
This is a lot of information man…no one cares where you buy your colthes or fact you dont have netflix. If one really thinks Netflix shifts your HF career net worth not sure what to say.
Let’s get to the core of the issue okay, you no longer enjoy the hours/stress of trading overnight/overseas. You did not magically just become crappy or stopped trying to adapt to the market…father time has caught up with you and is beating you down.
So questions arise; why have you not considered hiring/training a younger grad who will embrace the hours/stress. What aspects of trading actually attracted you to it first (if it was just monetary feel free to say so..). Once you get core of the issue can see what fits better.
damn this guy shows up on so many posts and keeps it real. Love it
How about getting into an AM like blackrock/fidelity? Should be much less stress there? I would possibly like to explore that path as well once i get burnt out in 5 years. Any opinions?
It's not easy to save up 2-3mm on 3mm PnL by age 30. You probably had much better years. If you absolutely gave up on idea of repeating your past success, maybe money is not the driving factor for you? Maybe try something you actually enjoy?
Sounds like he doesn’t know how to manage stress. Market was super shitty last year, most market makers, especially those in equities, especially in international/asian equities, had really one of the worst years in a decade. Most industries have recessions from time to time, and last year was a recession in the financial sector (look at how M&A was at a low too), bankers, bourses, brokers, market makers, etc. all did shitty. Even Blackrock/Vanguard struggled due to outflows from equity ETFs which have higher fees and into fixed income products which have lower fees. Economies are going to be shit from time to time and you just have to weather the tough times until the roaring times come again.
You can code so become a SWE at FAANG?
Invest your savings and that should have you more than covered for retirement in 30-35yrs.
Then collect a 200-400k paycheck for a stable low stress job that isn't super boring & has great benefits, and you should be able to spend 100% of your income because you are starting from a solid baseline.
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