Aspiring bankers, students, kids...Listen!
I've been reading WSO for many years and have used it to my benefit as a former prospective banker, thought I'd give a shot at sharing my 'words of wisdom' (if we can call it that) because some of the stuff that comes out of aspiring kids is painful to read.
I just want to urge the aspiring users here to be honest with themselves. I know how easy it is to be pulled into the dream and for it to totally consume you, your thoughts, your day-to-day actions and generally how you go about your education.
Too many people here are wasting their time not thinking straight and just going for something that (let's be honest) they don't even know too much about other than it can pay 6-figures real quick.
Let's cut the bull here, how many people have been on here talking about and working towards the 'dream'? Many thousands. Going by statistics, only a handful would have seen it materialise and make it there.
Now from those who didn't make it, some were good enough but didn't get lucky and will keep on trying. Others will realise they weren't actually as good as they thought and manage to go into a role they're more suited to.
Then there are those who don't realise they're not good enough and waste their youth away trying to get something they're realistically not going to get. Only after having wasted a few application cycles will they then concede, but by that time they're even further behind (age adjusted) than when they started as they haven't used those years gaining valuable skills.
I can't understand why a lot of us just think it's either the top prize or nothing, regardless of our abilities and suitability to the role. I say us because I was also like this when I was younger. I think it might be a bit of an ego thing, why settle for anything less than FO right?
The reality is a lot of us have goals solely based on them being perceived as being the top goals to have, not because they'd be suited to it, or good at it, or have a genuine interest in it.
The point I'm getting at here is, whilst it is always important to aim high and never settle for anything that doesn't do our potential justice, it's equally important to do a realistic evaluation of ourselves and accept our limitations. People need to ask themselves if they're actually 'good enough' to get to where they're supposedly aiming?
I can say with certainty that for a lot of people, if they take the ego, the delusion and the bias out of it and seriously look at themselves objectively, the answer to that question would be no.
That is fine, not everybody is qualified or suited to the top headline-making FO roles, in fact only a small minority truly are. But of course we all know that this inherent culture of undermining any aspiration for MO/BO or non-BB (or whatever) also plays its part in making people think it's either IB or bust. The whole thing is just ridiculous, I mean if the professionals of the industry thought this way then hell partners of PE firms would piss themselves laughing at the MDs of IB, there will always be a difference in prestige and hierarchy but it's all relative.
I just feel it's this sort of mentality that detracts people from accepting anything other than the top roles even though it's in their best interest to accept that they'd fare better in something else, something that they can actually get and not desperately chase only to fail at the end.
What's worse is a lot of us are more focused about the exit ops than the actual job at hand. Obviously we have to focus on future prospects but sometimes it gets to a point where people are looking so far ahead they lose focus on the present and totally mess it up.
Which brings me on to this laughable habit we have of planning our whole path out like some kind of naive drones. Ask yourself this, how many things in your life have happened EXACTLY as you've planned it?
People talk about doing a 3 year stint then go to a world class business school then get twice the comp in PE as if it's as easy as just saying it, like they've got it all sussed out, before they've even experienced anything. At least wait to see if you can handle 8 weeks of a summer internship before you talk about conquering the 3 year stints.
Worst of all is when high-school kids and college juniors spend their summers doing an unpaid 'internship' for the sake of their CV. Then of course they'll come on here asking how they can 'spin' it in an ib interview even though they did shit like photocopying and bring coffee the whole time (what valuable skills you've spent your summer learning!).
I mean seriously, if people spent even half as much effort in doing something in which they can ACHIEVE and accomplish they'd be in a much better position. Go to a sports camp, take part in tournaments, win trophies, medals and championships, take part in a musical if you swing that way....certainly performing in front of hundreds shows more confidence and ability to perform under pressure than spending your days on your knees ass-kissing the guy you're merely shadowing.
These are just a few examples, play to your strengths, point is to play to your interests, things in which you are actually one of the best at, these are things that show you are a winner, an achiever! That's not to say doing the aforementioned internships are bad or worthless, but people need to prioritise doing something that will add value to their character and not a line on the CV that you'll have to bullshit about to hide the fact that it involved pathetic work anyway.
Basically, just be realistic in the way you go about pursuing a career, whatever it may be. Chase brilliance and if you're truly good at what you do the success will find you, don't chase it.
I'm sure some people will disagree with what I've written or totally dismiss it, but I hope some also find it useful. Who knows, by opening your eyes and aiming for something you can achieve, in a few years you'll have achieved (and earned) quite a bit whilst those in defiance still trying to attain things that are out of their reach have yet to get their first paycheck.
Stephen Ridley oh how I have missed you.
This is good stuff.
The highlights for those of you who don't feel like reading:
I've seen too many aspirants with no idea of what an investment banker actually does. To go into something you don't want to do with the intent of getting out before you even start is roughly to commit yourself to your personal hell for several years. Do what you love, and you might actually have a shot of enjoying your life!
I actually read the whole thing. At first I thought it was a long troll post, but it was actually really good. Thanks a lot.
I agree that many chase something they know nothing about..(Stephen Ridley, Michael Lewis, etc.), but I'm glad I don't fit that description.
Maybe not EXACTLY, but most things I plan out end up happening more or less. If it’s a reasonable plan with clear execution, what’s so laughable?
Maybe the chase is the part where you learn the most
OP, it sounds like you're the type who actually drinks the kool-aid and believes that what you do is "god's work."
It's everyone's prerogative to aim high or low, depending on what they want or how they feel. For you to encourage people to shoot for jobs that are, frankly and quite obviously, worse than the tops jobs is insanely pompous and arrogant.
Let people dream. Whether they make it or not isn't what matters. It's the journey that will mold their character for better or worse. Success or failure are both just different beginnings to the rest of life.
Nail on the head. And if you're doing well in a target school with good ECs and some internships down the line, is it really that much of a stretch to break into investment banking? (still a freshman and new to site)
You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes well you might find. You get what you need.
I'm a bit confused my your post op. "Be realistic" is good advice, but only under certain circumstances.
corporate finance and equity research and sales and vanilla trading do not require that much ability. The supply of jobs is low, which makes it tough, but if you're saying "look yourself in the mirror to see if you're good enough", I don't buy that shit at all.
BO/MO careers are purely administrative...do NOT settle for these jobs. They require ZERO thinking, unless you're in market risk etc,
People should explore other career opportunities if FO does not materialize for them.
As far as other careers go, I've realized that if people want something bad enough, they just get it done. Cliche, cliche. I knew people growing up who I thought had no business going to med school, but they somehow found a way into Caribbean schools..., dentistry, law, same shit.
Not everyone has what it takes to be a Rocket Scientist or Mathematics professor, but I'd say most people are capable of doing 95% of jobs out there...
Once again, do NOT aim for a career in BO/MO. It is not in any way meaningful...
This is wildly incorrect. Operations is not the only BO/MO job.
There are plenty of interesting positions within treasury, strategy, investor relations, credit risk and corporate development. Even some of the accounting positions are interesting to some people and do require a fair amount of thinking.
Have you worked a single day in finance? There is a huge difference between an ops guy working alongside an investment team at a buyside firm and some high school dropout making copies and settling trades in Jacksonville.
.
You make such generalized statements that they really don't have any meaning. People want to be the best; they don't want to settle for second best. That's losing. Haven't you ever seen Pursuit of Happyness or any of those feel-good success stories? Will Smith should have "settled for something less" than getting the unpaid internship (very similar to the one you describe). But he said screw it I'm going for the big time. And he made it.
Point is you don't say anything substantive and its loser advice anyway. Always be happy, never be content.
I don't like this post
Not sure if I was being insulted.. but to clarify I don't get what all the hoopla is about regarding setting down a career path before you've experienced it. Let the monkeys climb the mountain and let each monkey sort it out on his or her own. Its annoying to come here and preach about journey and life.. maybe its true we'll discover that we struggled for a few years on the street and the view wasn't satisfying.. time to redraw the map and look for something else, but I'm sure to those who've made it their mission to break in they aren't worse off than their peers. A nice chunk of change and some war stories about all nighters in the trenches. And no one realy knows for themselves what they want until they do it or live it, I think to know you have to experience it. To dramatize what I mean: You can be a PhD in history, but until you've been on the front lines pulling the trigger you don't know what war is like. Srry for the rambling and typos I'm on my phone.
It's good stuff, but it's a shame it doesn't fit the "Patrick Bateman-inspired" "Type A" driven personalities that seem to hang out on these forums.
That said, I wouldn't ever close the doors on some opportunities. If I took a rejection from a Big 4 last year as a sign I shouldn't try, I wouldn't have got my grad position this year. If I took my rejection from a Retail Bank as a sign I shouldn't be in any type of banking, that doesn't reconcile with my past position as an Account Exec in a bank in the past. Dreams are dreams, and if everyone took every rejection as a sign they shouldn't do something, then nothing would get done. I used to be good great maths as a kid, now I can't do it well because I've practiced it once, in 8 years.
But I think there's something to be said for people's abilities. But then, I doubt anyone who's a wizz kid at basketball or biology is sitting here trying to break into IB.
You've got a point, but there's no use discouraging kids from doing internships and following their dreams. :)
As someone who had no in's and successfully broke into the industry (ie worked very, very hard and got very, very, very lucky), this would be 100% accurate. Money is fungible and if everyone earned $200,000 it would cease to be the top 5%. Doing what you love is more valuable than anything.
If you had been "reading WSO for many years" you would know that it is extremely rare for people to enter post-MBA PE without pre-MBA PE experience. And also that rarely do people do a 3 year analyst stint without the intentions of becoming an associate. So either you're not very good at retaining information or a troll. I think the latter.
I see the point of being a realist. However, no matter your background (target vs non-target) or credentials...i think it all comes down to how bad you want it and how willing you are to go get it. Yes you may fail....but it will be a lesson learned and you usually find your place.
Cubica, you just opened my eyes:)
truth be told, banking isn't everything.
I just have to say who are you to tell people not to dream? Would you tell a paralyzed man that instead of trying to recover, he would be much better suited for a life in a wheelchair now? I mean sure not everyone can accomplish their highest goals, but if everyone had the mentality you're promoting, no one would be extraordinary. It sounds to me that since you didn't succeed at the original path you chose you're trying to "save" people from the disappointment of failure, but that's part of life. You're not protecting anyone by telling them that they're dreaming too big. Let people live their life and learn from their own experiences.
He is not saying 'don't dream'. He is saying don't chase a dream that isn't your own.
Everyone is different, so therefore FO isn't suitable for everyone. In fact, finance might not even be suitable for everyone. Just because some people make lots of money, work at prestigious firms, or get praised for doing difficult does not mean that same job is for you.
Don't let people define you based on where you work, how much you get paid, or how difficult it was to land your job. Define yourself and find the job that suits you best. Like I said, everyone is different.
As a result, not everyone should be valuing firm prestige or money the same way; you need to go by your own valuations and find what suits you best. Despite what is said around WSO, it doesn't make sense for everyone to have the same goals. We have been biased on our thoughts, and we have to go with our own opinion, not that of anyone else.
Firstly, fantastic post. You hit the nail on the head on so many points.
However, I can't help but disagree with the point you raised in the quote above. While it's true for those who interned at the bigger banks, my 2 internships at 2 regional IBs in a MENA country were no joke/photocopying and coffee-getting internships. They have people for that here (because of cheap labor from west asia, i guess). At my first internship I was always coached by the VP, given that the IBD team for this country was only 3 people (2 people at the office that I interned in). The VP's coaching was mostly on how to deal with clients, formatting (LOL), communications, very basic modelling, etc. Overall, it was an awesome experience. That was the summer before senior year.
My second internship (2 MDs, 1 VP, 2 Associates, 1 Analyst) was at the country's first-place bulge bracket; GS and JPM never make it past 4th in Bloomberg's country rankings for this country. It was more serious. I got to go along with the VP on multiple pitches. I was given more responsibilities (collecting spreads, more free reign with editing, co-wrote prospectuses with the analyst, etc.). My input and due diligence for a client actually benefited one of the deals we were working on. I got to see the deal process of a company from deal origination to near-IPO (waiting for regulatory approval), which was a miracle since they take longer than a year. This was the summer after senior year of high school.
The point that I'm trying to make is that you can't really paint the same brush over everyone who was well-read enough to do an real internship in their highschool years. While the majority actually have the useless internships you mentioned, a minority that actually learned a lot and contributed a lot exists. Just my 2 cents.
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