Full Time Recruiting - Or will I have to go to Law School?
Hi, so here's the deal.
I have a solid background: 3.9+ from a non-target and 2 real internship experiences. Two summers ago I was at a mid-tier bank (like PNC, KeyBank, SMBC, BNP, Stiefel) but worked with a solid group. This past summer I was at a BB, just not one of the ones where everyone got full time offers....hence this post.
Got solid feedback the whole summer, just didn't get the offer. Obviously a rough job market, and while I know this pales in comparison to people losing their real jobs or the other harm done by COVID, but am I kind of screwed?
Most banks don't have FT apps open, and I'm at a nontarget. I have great experience and I think my greatest attributes are that I like learning new things, am genuinely a team player (although maybe I shouldn't have helped out the other interns so much, otherwise I would have gotten the offer instead of some of them), and am open to a lot of opportunities (Fixed Income S&T, IB, buy-side credit funds/Asset management, Structured Products).
Will I be able to find any of these roles over the next 2/3 months? Or should I get studying for the LSAT, get into a top 10 school (without sounding like a jerk, I swear it's realistic for me) and go to a big firm like SullCrom, Davis Polk, Simpson, Skadden, Gibson Dunn, Weil Gotchel, Cravath, Sidley and take it from there?
I know some of you are going to say "just decide which you want to do because those paths are different" - thanks, I know and that's what I'm trying to decide, just really trying to get some advice and thoughts on FT recruiting for this year.
Thanks everyone
Do you actually want to go to law school? If nothing pans out with your job hunt, you could aim for a top 5 finance masters and hop right back into IB from there.
Is that a relatively seen path? Have never seen anyone personally do that (network/people I've worked with)
More common in the UK but there's a path if you go to a top school. You don't see it much in the US because most go from undergrad. MIT is the gold standard with strong OCR, Princeton also has a great program but it's 2 years and heavy on the math. A couple semi-targets out there too (Vanderbilt, UT, USC, Columbia) that will get you FT IB looks.
Getting a MM/boutique job and lateraling is still your best bet, but MIT especially is worth looking into if you're set on going back to school.
Was in the same situation as you last year. Interned at a BB, but didn’t get a return due to headcount despite having great reviews. Now the difference between our situations is that I didn’t have to recruit during a pandemic which ironically probably made it harder because interviewers were less willing to give me the benefit of the doubt when most kids my year got a return. People will understand you got screwed. The job market is pretty shit right now, but trust me going to law school would be an extremely expensive waste of time if you don’t want to be a lawyer. Try recruiting for any opportunity that you can in finance, and try to lateral back in to where you want to be later on. Get an MBA once you have some experience. Don’t just go to law school because you like the idea of going to law school. It isn’t the 80s anymore. Law school isn’t the “generalist” degree that all smart people get. Take some time to reflect on what would make you happy long term career wise. If being a lawyer is something you can see yourself doing until you retire, then go to law school. If not, then I guarantee bschool would be a much better decision.
I hear you. To be honest the law stuff has always interested me a bit, understanding why things are the way they are, how they chance, in what scenarios to structure which way, etc. Plus, from what I've seen, a Partner at a top 50 NYC firm makes more than a most mid tier MD's at most banks.
Did you land back in IB?
I interned in S&T and landed in a commodity trading role at a top shop. Even though the job market is slower for you than it was for me, don’t sell yourself short. The BB name definitely means a lot. Apply to every opportunity that you can find in finance. Don’t limit yourself to just IB or the sellside. I surprisingly got interviews at some pretty interesting buyside shops just by cold emailing them. Also, don’t underestimate how hard it is to make partner at a big law firm. It’s just as, if not more competitive, than making MD in IB. However, lawyers generally have much fewer/less attractive exit ops if they get pushed out than finance guys do. Hope everything works out for you man.
You should network with lawyers so they can offer you a reality check instead of asking finance bros. Anyways in theory the path is simple, crush your lsat, get into a t5 law school, be in the top percentile and work at a big law firm BUT if you don't get into big law you would have wasted 3 years of missed earnings, networking opportunities and are faced with the reality that you are going to be stuck in a low paying job post JD.
I think you need to take some time to relax and reevaluate your plan of getting into IB instead of rushing into law school because of the potential prestige and compensation. If your true desire in life is to be a wealthy and "prestigious" in NYC then being a partner at a v5 firm is a great way to go but I think that you know you're freaking out a bit and want to hedge your risk by buying a put option on the law school path.
My thought process has been 1) it's a relatively stable, prestigious position that will be around for a while 2) from what I've heard it has some really redeeming qualities (4 years in S&T or DCM doesn't make you a better business owner, 4 years at a top firm gives knowledge and perspective that adds value in a C-Suite/start-up) and 3) the downside pay is better. The upside of IB is MD at BB or partner at PE making 2-4mm+ per year, the downside is making 400k as a Corp Dev VP at a Forbes 500, the upside of Partner at NYC firm is 2,3,4 mm, the downside is being counsel at a NYC firm making 700k (I'm from a family of lawyers and confident I wouldn't just end up at a small 5 man litigation firm).
I always enjoyed the business side of things, I'm just wondering if I should try another approach and try to scale the mountain from another path
NOOOOOOO NOOOOOOO NOT LAW SCHOOL NOOOOOOO PLEASE NOOOOO NOT LAW SCHOOL; THE BRAZIL OF SCHOOLS, PLEASE NO LAW SCHOOL
I would look into valuation and TAS roles. You can transfer to a solid boutique or middle market after a year of these roles. You should be able to get these roles with your great background. I would also hit up any FT IB opportunity you see since you may just get the spot. There are still a few IB spots left.
I've never really heard what TAS actually even does, haven't been able to get a clear answer...
Citi and BAML gave everyone offers, and because of the risk and lower return rates, I don't see people at other banks rejecting their offers...Any particular banks that you know have spots? Goldman and JPM had apps, haven't seen any others
TAS = financial due diligence (FDD) and somestimes valuation can be under TAS as well. It is common to see people from FDD and valuation to IB. I do not know of any banks, but I would check posting on Linkedin and handshake.
what’s your LSAT score?
Didn't take yet, aiming for low 170's or at least 167+
Based on peers and practice tests I've done, doesn't seem out of reach. From the NY area, probably hoping for Columbia, NYU, Penn (Harvard if i get lucky and absolutely kill the lsat) Georgetown, UVA also good options
Everything is too hypothetical as you don't have a LSAT score yet. Its rather common for test day anxiety to result in people to score 2-3 points below their practice exam averages. And when 2-3 points is the difference between Harvard's median and UVA's median marginal differences matter A LOT. In all honesty you need to take the test ASAP see if your score is competitive for the LSAT/GPA combos for the T13 as apps after December significantly decrease your chances. Best.
The alternatives you are weighing aren't even very comparable.
Keep trying to land an IB role vs incurring $300k in the form of debt/expenses + 3 years worth of opportunity cost (salary + bonus). We're talking about $500-600k cost just "to take it from there".
Also, I'm pretty sure nobody got an offer over you just because you helped them here or there. Take some responsibility on your end. Shit happens.
And those that go on attend HBS and Stanford are similarly giving up ~500k in oppurtunitty costs, yet everyone here drools at the thought of one day of attending either institution. Biglaw associates make more than the average HBS and Stanford graduate along with a good amount of better job security. So your point? OP this forum has an obvious skew towards finance, why not try out top-lawschool-forum and see what they advise.
Your thinking is flawed.
People here talk about HBS as a means of 1) progressing past associate (PE) 2) entering the industry as associate (IB) or 3) Changing to a whole new industry. You see where I'm going?
OP is weighing either keep looking for the job that he wants or, oh well, $600k in law school and let's see what happens. The alternative is much better risk-reward wise. Big law is only worth pursuing if you have a passion for the law.
Finally, you end your post by encouraging him to go to another place where he'll have similarly biased answers, but in favor of law school. My point was to encourage some critical thinking regarding the comparison.
Appreciate the thoughts, I should have worked harder and done better work, etc. no doubt.
That being said, on both major projects and basic requests I covered for my teammate when they asked me to explain something, help out - which I would do again, that's just who I am, I'm not a step on their throats type of dude. It's just annoying that in the end I didn't get the offer when I had to help the other analyst (small niche group, 4 summer analysts, 2 offers) and ended up getting rocked. Could be one of the other analysts is neighbors with the MD, or other factors (school/alumni pull, diversity etc.), and hindsight in this case isn't even 20/20. Of course, stuff happens, some in my control, some out of it, and gotta just look to see what to do. I'm confident in my work ethic, character traits, and decent smarts that I'll be alright, just gotta figure out which path to take next.
Thanks for the comments, appreciate it.
Law school is an L if you're not passionate about going into law
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