IB DCM Is it that bad?
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100% do DCM. You can make an entire career in DCM pulling in great money and not getting reamed (go read the analyst stories from coverage/M&A groups here). DCM is still front office.
Take the DCM job, do it for a year, then decide if you want to lateral to a BB.
Edit: You’re getting some seriously dogshit advice from idiots. Do not listen to them unless you want to be stuck in a back-office job in NY. Take front office over back office virtually every time. You can move to front office DCM at a bulge very easily. Moving internally at a BB from back-office to front-office is exceptionally more difficult. You’re last pick after everyone in IB at the bank in another group and last pick after any lateral from IB. Don’t fucking listen to these people.
I'd maybe agree with your post, but these circumstances are a bit different. COVID is wrapping up it appears. People are quitting their coverage/M&A NYC jobs left and right now, and I'm sure some people are just waiting until the remote period is over or bonuses arrive. I'd think now is the perfect time to position yourself in NYC to scoop up some opportunities as they arrive.
I don't know if you've noticed, but this is one of the hottest IB recruiting markets I've seen in some time actually. Do you want to be out on an island in Pittsburgh in a role with no internal mobility (no coverage, no M&A, no LevFin) and telling recruiters "yeah I am working in Pittsburgh but I can come to NYC next week" or "yeah I work in Pittsburgh and I'm planning on moving when I find a job" or do you want to be in NYC when opportunities are opening up and setting up meetings the same day? Which candidate would you rather be in a hot hiring market?
This guy got the DCM offer. He's probably a smart person who's savvy and networked; in order to find an IB job in a off-market like Pittsburgh he'd have to be. If he puts these skills to use in a tier 1 city like NYC with a little bit of experience, he will find something in ~6 months if he grinds. Otherwise, it's going to be a lot more work, a lot more planning, and a lot more risk by living in Pittsburgh and recruiting for jobs a few hundred miles away.
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Absolutely agree with this. Listen to his comment. Do DCM 100%.
Do not listen to these people. If you go to DCM at PNC you will be stuck doing IG bonds or loans. Look at the bond and loan league tables for bookrunners. I can pull the information from the internet and send it to you if you don’t believe me. PNC is not a player whatsoever in the leveraged loan market despite having such a huge balance sheet, nor do they execute any HY issuance. There is just NO WAY that the exit opps from PNC’s DCM can be good in NYC unless you have some pre-existing connection to a firm or wish to continue to do IG debt. Look at the group’s NYC exits in recent years. I can virtually guarantee you that in the last ~3 years nobody has exited the PNC “investment banking” program to a non-DCM gig in NYC. Certainly not internationally. Nobody giving you this advice can name one deal where PNC was an active on an interesting piece of paper and nobody can give you any clarity on exit opps. This is a firm and location specific issue.
I take back my comment. A lot more variables to think about. Like what firm is this risk for? Depending on your personally and how good you can network, maybe DCM later might be a better option. Lot more variables in question. I do see the otherside and I'm 50/50
Would you say S&T > BO in almost all cases as well?
This is the top tier comment. DCM is so mindless once you get it. But it opens up you to just fuck around. I mean literally half the time I was just getting lunch with colleagues and cahooning around.
First, what’s “better” depends on what you like and what you’re looking for. Second, don’t let a forum full of prestige loving high school kids deter u from a good opportunity if it’s something you like. WSO only focuses on M&A IB -> PE and makes it seem like everyone on here has a FT gig in GS TMT. DCM has its set backs in that it is a markets facing capital markets role meaning you aren’t exposed to modeling in the same way as you are in other groups for example. However it is by no means a bad gig. Having a less intense job also makes it more sustainable and if you want to move into traditional IB later, I’m sure it’s possible especially on the debt side or even private debt. I personally like debt. Risk is a different role as well that is usually considered middle office. I’m not too familiar with risk personally. You have to consider what you want and where you wanna end up. If you are dead set on using these roles to transfer to traditional IB I would think DCM might be easier but it depends on the bank you go to , how it’s structured, and its internal mobility opportunities
You will have an infinitely easier time lateraling to another bank to do M&A/coverage/etc. being in NYC. The BB brand name will work in your favor, and if you're smart enough to land a DCM gig with no experience, I'm sure you'd do much better with the brand of a BB being in a major hub of finance. I can think of three people personally who have transitioned from risk management to IB. One was at Macquarie in SF, it took him approximately 1.5 years to transition into their TMT coverage group and has since transitioned into relatively lucrative roles at both a start up and I believe now is in growth PE. The other one was at Deutsche Bank in NYC, it took them about one year to make the transition. These people I'd imagine are now infinitely better off than they would have been had they taken a front office offer in a tier 3 city.
Ultimately, it comes down to where you want to have a career. It will be a hell of a lot easier to get a coverage/m&a/levfin (the "desirable") opportunity working in NYC than it ever would be coming from a city with no major banking presence, at a bank who is considered more of a lender than a true investment bank. PM me if you want more information about the people I know who have made the transition.
Dude, have you even been to Pittsburgh? It will be really hard trying to compete with NY guys when you are out in Pittsburgh. I mean it is your decision, but if I were you I would do the BB then use that to network and lateral. Especially now so many analysts in NY are quitting I think you would have a much easier time. Good luck! PM me if you have questions, I used to live in Pittsburgh.
Congrats on the opportunities. You should consider both, but really think about what you want to do for a career. DCM is very mind numbing work, so is risk, but there are going to be more opportunities to transfer at a BB than PNC or any other super regional, especially one with no M&A or other service lines to transfer to. Key Bank at least has M&A and Cleveland has other IB jobs. Yes, DCM can be a cushy gig, but you do limit your opportunities significantly by being in a tier 3 city and not developing the right skill set. You could do the DCM gig, get someone in NYC to bring you in, but they’d want you to do DCM there because that’s your skill set. As someone who started their career in a Midwestern tier 3 city, I will be completely honest that recruiters dinged me for not being in NYC. It is just SO much easier to bring in one of the guys from NYC than having to fly someone into NYC to talk to you when there are 10 other guys just like him who want the job on the same block as your firm. I’ve been told this verbatim by recruiters when I was trying to transfer. The benefits of being in a tier 3 city are, once you’re there, you’ll be the top candidate for the local opportunities. I’m not sure there are any M&A or levfin opportunities in Pittsburgh though, so again, I think you’d want to choose NYC if you’re even considering lateraling. Pittsburgh and DCM you are lateraling cities and roles. NYC and Risk it’s as simple as an internal transfer or go to the shop across the street. Just my .02
Does this difficulty recruiting for NYC positions also apply to major non-NYC cities like San Fran and Chicago? And even if you're coming from IB positions in those cities? I would think now with Zoom, it might be easier to recruit from other cities.
You’d think it wouldn’t matter, but it does. Bottom line is, the world is going to return to normal at some point. Proximity matters a lot. I’d say that it does matter. It would be one thing if you’re coming from a legit platform in Chicago or SF to another player, but PNC just isn’t a player in IB or DCM really. It also just creates an added layer of risk for the employer that you’ll get cold feet and decide not to move. I mean think about it man. You aren’t in Pittsburgh, you got the offer, you’re trying to lateral already. Of course it’s a risk for these firms if you’re not local. You’ve been recruiting in an environment that is completely unusual. Most firms also will still expect to meet you in person, zoom is not going to cut it.
Your best bet is always to go with the biggest brand and best city for your resume if you're trying to recruit. You'll have more success recruiting from a BB in NYC/LA/SF/CHI than you will from a commercial bank in a relatively unknown city. It's not super easy to transition from these cities. Many funds/banks that I know of are still having in person interviews, and I've personally been dinged for not being in the city I was recruiting for. I ended up finding something, but it took me a whole extra year to get there, and you don't want to spend your analyst years in DCM if you want career optionality. It's a big risk I think you're underestimating.
Just to be clear I think that the main issue here is particular to the bank, the opportunity, and the city. If it was Goldman Sachs, then sure maybe you take the risk and live in a tier 3 city like Pittsburg. But some people in certain parts of the country have honestly never even heard of PNC. On top of that, if you don't like it, you have no other options internally, so you're forced out. Do you know much about PNC? Don't go there expecting to have opportunities with Harris Williams. It does not work that way.
If you want to have a career in NYC then you should start your career in NYC. Lateraling from another city is hard, especially when the talent pool is so large in NYC that they don’t really even need to look outside of it. I know of one specific fund in NYC that doesn’t even recruit people who don’t work in NYC. I’m sure that is extreme, but you get the point. Do you have any connection to Pitt? There are really no finance opportunities there outside of PNC, maybe BNY Mellon, but they’re not players either. I’m guessing PNC DCM is primarily investment grade bonds (I.E. pricing updates and interest rate updates). Does that sound like what you want to do? If you were set on Pittsburgh for some reason, PNC is probably your best bet, but it sounds like you’re already thinking NYC...
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How much time do you have to decide?
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Okay forget about the finra exams that is irrelevant. Also hearing that you might want to go back to your home country just makes me think more that the brand name of a BB is even more important. You can always spin the role however you think is best.
PNC has legitimately no international footprint and no international name recognition either, especially in Asia. Tons of people lateral from risk to other roles. You’ll be much better off internationally with the BB on your resume than you would with PNC.
Insurance salesman require FINRA exams and I wouldn’t tell you to take one of those roles.
If you want to work in NYC, I think you should go for the BB. If you EVER want to work Asia, I would not be considering PNC AT ALL. It is a domestic bank. You will have no opportunities to move internationally at PNC. Also, people in the west coast of the United States have no idea what PNC is, let alone Asia.
Lateraling location to location is easier than BO to FO. Period. True before COVID, will be true after. Your chance of being stuck in back office in NY is high. People aren’t going to forget how to pick up the phone or join Zoom because covid is over.
Asia is very brand-centric. He will never do business with Asia at PNC and the brand is virtually unrecognizable there. It would not make sense to choose a domestic regional bank over an international BB if the candidate wants to work internationally one day.
Absolutely this. If you intend to go back to Asia, take the biggest brand name possible, that is all anyone cares about. You can use your spare time in Risk management to learn a broader context on the deal, practice modeling, whatever you want. When you go back you'll just say "I worked at Citi on XYZ deal"
TL;DR—take DCM.
Take DCM. People on this forum are generally narrow minded and haven’t even figured out the path they are on.
To echo another voice—not many people are GS TMT. Lots of good LMM/MM opportunities exist in the Pittsburgh/CLE/PHL/Chicago region and PNC has a large footprint in those markets.
Also—If you are especially interested in manufacturing/industrials, Pittsburgh is a good place to be. In my honest, albeit naive opinion, sitting in New York doing M&A deals won’t get you to understand how operating a business works. This is the absolute key to being successful in PE—understanding how to operate a business is very important. You can also leverage a DCM role into a good CorpDev position in the region which can be very lucrative, or even make a jump to the buy-side without M&A experience. Just look at groups like Incline, Tecum (Mezz), PNC RiverArch, etc.
Remember, anyone can learn how to model an LBO, a DCF and run comps. Learning how to operate to grow and scale is the real challenge, the “dark art” if you will.
Congrats on landing the gig but please stay away from BO positions just to be in NYC. You’ll have a hell of a lot harder time selling your experience.
You're not going to learn "how a business works" from selling bonds to companies. Look at the background of people at Incline, none of them have backgrounds in selling bonds. Tecum capital is a joke, and PNC RiverArch is extremely small and only wants true people from Pittsburgh. This guy will have a much easier time trying to take advantage of people leaving their IB jobs in NY and getting a REAL investment banking job. The network he will build there will be immense. What sounds better (especially if unsure if want to stay in the country) BB in NYC or regional bank in Pittsburgh? My parents don't even know what PNC is (I'm international) but even my grandparents know the names of BB and know the prestige it has.
Nobody at Incline Equity is ex-DCM. The person is trying to leave the region altogether and perhaps the country. They’ve already expressed an interest in not living in Pittsburgh or Cleveland.
Fair. On another note, I know MUFG is growing their DCM and Project & Structured Finance presence in the US. I would imagine one could lateral there.
I would never take a risk role over DCM that is just my opinion.
I interned with PNCs DCM group. They group syndications and bonds in DCM and syndications is the way larger business, and PNC is a way larger player in that then they are in bonds (tho it seemed like they were growing the bonds business a lot). All analysts start in syndications where you will do a mix of leveraged and IG deals. You may eventually rotate on the bonds team and can potentially end up being placed there if you like it, but do not go into PNC DCM thinking you will be doing IG bonds, as chances are you won't do that at all. Plenty of analysts with syndications experience have exited to PE funds and other good roles you'd see anywhere else, though obviously the points being made about the disadvantages about not being in NYC are valid. But do a quick LinkedIn search and you will see. If you absolutely want to be in NYC, then do the risk role. If you are OK with Pittsburgh then I would take DCM over risk.
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Do not, under any circumstances, go to risk or worse, a back or middle office function, for the brand stamp on your resume.
It won’t be easy, but you can lateral into banking from there. Chicago’s MM/EB’s all have cap markets groups and they hire all the time from these types of DCM roles.
Even using PNC’s balance sheet to originate/underwrite investment grade, the analysis you’ll perform is way closer to banking than anything you’ll encounter in risk, measuring VaR or some settlement system for cash/deriv products at a full service bank’s mid/back office.
Believe me, I started my career in traded products and took some quirky roles and have had to kill myself to get back to banking & proper corporate finance.
Take the DCM job and immediately start networking, learning, training for your chance to lateral, it’ll come, may not be many chances, but it’ll come, and you better bet your ass you gotta be ready for it. GL.
Any thoughts on BB S&T vs. BB BO? I was initially excited to make the transition after 1.5 years in BB BO in NYC, but given all the hate for S&T I'm starting to worry... might be better to stay in BO and try my hand at trying to land a proper IB job, though the clock is ticking.
OP deleted the topic
LMAO WTF
Tbh not wrong. I was wondering why OP was soooo specific in his post...
hire me i will be committed like how i am committed to my gf
Dude you are toast
yikozzzz
My first day with a wso account such great drama. Yeah dude, really stupid move to post something so specific. Analysts gossip I am sure EVERYONE has seen this post...
OP, you landed two offers in a pandemic! Feel good about yourself. You will be okay no matter what. Keep your head up, and re-recruit in 12 months-24 months. I am sure that you will be fine regardless of your choice.
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