My disability is keeping me away from banking
I am a european business school student studying for a master. I am from a top school, have interned in a boutique and have some experience as an assistant in a top american school (H/W/Y).
I have a higher that average IQ (83 percentile) but also sluggish cognitive tempo. This condition, a variant of inattentive ADHD, means that I have poor working memory, and don't do very well in timed tests. Also due to an imbalance of dopamine in my brain it's extremely, extremely difficult for me to focus/concentrate, and i compensate by working VERY VERY hard.
I have applied to a number of BBs, and I did superdays for two of these, others are coming.
In one of these two I asked the bank for addition 25% time on the numerical test. (the very first thing you do at a superday in europe, before the real interviewing phase beings)
I was granted the time, on the condition that if I was extended an offer after the AC I could provide medical evidence of such need.
I had my superday on wednesday. I believe I did a great job, felt really like I connected with both my interviewers, one of which made several compliments.
A few hours after I came out, I received an email asking me for medical proof. I sent them such medical documents, but I have not heard anything bank.
We were 4 at the superday, and I know that one kid received an offer 2 hours later, and another received an email rejection. (I believe the 4th one got rejected too, as he was not good)
I didn't hear anything, aside from an answer to my email this morning answering that they're still "putting together information", don't know yet and will get back to me.
I find this weird because if they were interested, I believe I would have been phoned with an offer. At the same time I don't understanding what's the hold-up, especially since they have my documents and I'm sure my interviewers have made their minds up in one case or the other.
SIncerely I believe that by disclosing my disability I have damaged my application. Who wants a kid with a disability when you've got a ton of normal ones to choose from?
At the same time I really needed the additional time for the numerical test, and couldn't have done without.
If someone can help me out understanding what is their problem and why they're not letting me know I'd be really grateful.
And I'm sorry for the lenght of the thread.
They might be checking into it. You are afterall a special case in the hiring process. Hang tight.
I'm sorry to hear about your condition. There are two possibilites:
GL to you; work ethic counts for almost all in the long run. let us know what happens.
Banking overall is nicer to ppl with disabilities (some prominent ppl within MS/GS are) compared to consulting firms. So i would just chill for a bit.
^ yeah. i personally know a guy who went to MS M&A with severe dyslexia. but he was a great guy, hard worker, and they saw all that.
you also have to realize that ADD is highly scrutinized from a legitimacy standpoint. Some people don't even know if it's a real thing. I have medical documents that say I have ADD or whatever but really I just wanted adderall. Do I have something? Maybe. And I guess I could have taken advantage of those extra time allotments and all of that but it's just not worth the view that it is a crutch. Granted, I didn't get prescribed until I was in late college so maybe if you've been riding the amphetamine lightning for 20 years it looks a little more legit, but you still have to consider the possibility that they say "ok everyone has ADD, this kid is taking it too far" or "maybe he has ADD, but if it's bad enough that he is submitting letters and what not then it's going to be extremely challenging for him to do this type of work in an efficient manner...we're going with someone else."
just my perspective
So you had a medical disorder diagnosed just because you wanted drugs. I think that's it's ultimately the fault of people like you that adhd is "highly scrutinized".
The people that "don't even know if it's a real thing" are ignorants. ADHD is a genetic neurological disorder, usually inherited. It can even be measured by a brain scan. It's hard to argue with a brain scan.
I agree that it's overdiagnosed in the US, and that drugs are prescribed like candy, though. I don't take drugs.
I find it funny when idiotic people say things to the effect of "kids with ADHD are just noisy brats". I, for example, am extremely calm, soft-spoken, polite. You'd never tell I have adhd. But that's because people usually don't what adhd is, and they confuse it with being loud or disruptive in school.
I agree, I'm sure that's exactly what goes through the mind of recruiters when they consider my case. Unfortunately the irony is that I have no problem in cranking away hours on an excel model (I interned in M&A before), and doing a pretty good job. My problem is that I find it nearly impossible to finish in time a numerical test while under pressure and surrounded by people breathing, moving, making noises.
These numerical tests are cut-off in Europe, if you don't pass them you don't proceed to interviews. If there were no tests, I would have no problem with superdays.
This is Europe, not USA, it is much harder to get diagnosed for ADD here
Before responding to this message, please make sure to read the second message I am going to post in response to OP.
Cartwright, I registered just to say the following to you. You are a disgusting piece of shit. I wouldn't say hit ler level bad by any means, but you are equivalent to the asshole who parks in a handicap spot preventing people who need it from being able to. I have a combination of issues which have been diagnosed as a combination of ADD and anxiety disorders among other things. I suffer significantly in terms of testing becuase I am afraid to tell my teachers that I have these issues as I assume they will assume I'm a fucking soulless prick such as yourself.
I am pretty sure that Cartwright was just personalizing the thought process of people looking at ADHD patients. Not that he did it himself. It sucks that you have the problem man, it's always a question whether or not to revel my disability because (while it is illegal) people will take it into consideration no matter what unconsciously or consciously. Just try the best you can with the hand you were dealt.
1- asking for extra time is stupid. This is the real world. No one cares what disability you have… there’s someone that can do the job and someone that cannot, you fall into one of the buckets and no one is going to make an exception for you. May not be fair, but that’s the way it goes… for HR reasons, they likely complied with your 25% extra time request and then wrote you off as a candidate
2- you know how many people likely have some sort of disability? To be quite honest, you sound to me like you’re using a crutch… there are people with far worse disabilities than you (most likely) that have accomplished and will accomplish more than you can ever imagine (most likely). You may be one of those people, but the fact that you view a disability as a limitation tells me that’s not the case.
Stop feeling sorry for yourself and expecting people to give you special treatment. There are people missing limbs, blind etc that climb Everest… and then theres you, asking for extra time on a test because you have a hard time concentrating and cant remember stuff (which btw, almost everyone in our over stimulated generation suffers from). Maybe your case is exceptionally severe… in which case this just isn’t the right career for you. May not be fair… but that’s the real world. There might be a blind guy out there that wants to be a Navy SEAL sniper.... but it just ain't going to happen. Even if he requests that someone guide him to his perch, setup his gun, zero in on a target, line up a shot and then put the blind guy's hand on the trigger to pull it.
I tell it like it is.
So you believe that being able to pass a SHL test is essential to being a banker as HAVING EYESIGHT is essential to being a SEAL? That's retarded.
It might not be much, but I have interned in M&A and received excellent feedback about what I did. (and an offer) IBD is not rocket science, and I believe that a 20 minute SHL test is not a good indicator of "being able to do the job".
I believe I can be successful in finance, and I'll do whatever it takes to overcome obstacles in the way. And currently my main obstacle is a stupid fucking numerical 20 minute test. So I'm trying to understand if there is a way around it, and if it may work for or against me.
If you think this attitude is wrong, and that I should gladly accept failing superdays just for one single stupid test, I'm happy you have expressed your opinion and let's move on.
Plus one here. OP, shut the fuck up and deal if you want to make it outside the PC bubble that psychiatrists and compliance officers facilitate for you in school. I can't speak to whether your issues are worse than mine, but I have far worse than run-of-the-mill ADD in a diagnosis that includes several other psychobabble terms and I've never let onto it in any instance, even when I could have benefited from extra time in recruiting procedures. The reason for this is that I assume that recruiters think the way Marcus said they do and quite frankly, this makes sense. If I was hiring for a task driven position such as Ibanking analyst I would consider that students with learning disabilities would be less able to perform and those with learning disabilities who use the special privileges allotted at every opportunity are more likely to pull the equal protection card if their job is on the line as they aren't performing.
Bottom line- regardless of what special privileges the school may grant, in the real world you aren't going to get 20% more time. Learn to deal bud.
Is there some flaw in my logic here? I absolutely think sight is essential in being a SEAL, and absolutely imperative in being a sniper of any sort, especially a Navy SEAL sniper.
And #2, yes I think being able to do a quantitative test (no matter how basic or sophisticated it may be) ATLEAST as fast as all the other candidates taking the same text is a prerequisite for being considered alongside them IF that is the litmus test for moving forward in the process... which it sounds like it is here.
And lastly, I'm giving you my view. I've been pretty heavily involved in recruiting throughout my career. I consider myself well informed about how the process works and the thought process when narrowing down candidates. And I can absolutely tell you that if you're requesting more time to do a 20 minute numerical test because of a mental disability, specifically one which prevents you from focusing and remembering (during a 20 minute assessment), you are absolutely NOT someone I want working in my group.
Banking is most certainly not rocket science. If it were, perhaps your 83rd percentile IQ would come in handy. But when your MD is on the way to the airport with a set of books with an analysis that is wrong... and your told to fix the numbers in the next 20 minutes get it printed and meet him at the airport before his flight leaves and you request more time because of a mental disability... it doesn't matter what percentile your IQ is, I dont want you on my team.
My blunt view is not to inform you you'll never make into banking, its to give you an insiders perspective. And thats what I did. Sure, maybe the person reviewing your app on the recruiting team also had a disability and can relate to you, maybe the person just doesn't give a fuck... but I can tell you that most of the people I know in banking don't exhibit signs of a mental disabilities even if they have one which means either they dont let it show in their performance (e.g., timeliness) or they don't have one... so they can't relate to your request.
OP: 1) Why are you not using drugs? Just doesn't make any sense - obv if you did a lot of research for your decision, pass this question. A random tip - fish oil has been shown to alleviate symptoms of add and dyspraxia if used regularly for longer period of time. You can look into research for this. 2) Are you 100% sure you can't pass those tests - have you practiced 20+ tests? If you haven't done so, you might be cutting yourself short? I too qualify for 25% extra time, but I have practiced a lot and I am not asking for extra time.
I understand your concern over your potentially low test score, but by making this disclosure you are exposing yourself to unwarranted prejudice before you even have a chance to make a positive first impression. Receiving multiple BB super day interviews is a testament to both your intelligence and work ethic . You have proven that you have the necessary drive to perform top level despite your disability. You need to weigh the pro's and cons of a lower test score vs. disclosure of your disability.
The simple fact of the matter is that no matter how justifiable your disability is requesting the extra time is going to automatically draw negative attention towards you as a candidate. You were granted extra time potentially because no one in HR wants to deal with the potential clusterf**k of discriminating against a disabled person. What the hiring manager really wants to say to HR is "Here's the thing... I don't give a tuppenny fuck about your moral conundrum, take your Equal Opportunity Employer and shove..."
Is it fair that you will have to take a lower score on your technical test because of a disability you were born with? Absolutely not, but by requesting time you run the chance of interviewing with someone who simply don't give a sh*t, about your disability. As much as people outwardly project tolerance, many have biases and in many cases will unfairly judge you as a inferior. On this forum alone the have been posts about candidates ranting about how the Beiber haircut they showed up to the interview with got them dinged 1st round by some asshole who spends 20 minutes every morning making sure his hair slick is parted correctly.
I'm not going to get on a soap box and deliver "Life is'nt fair, deal with it." rant (too late), but you need to acknowledge your limitations and adjust your interview strategy accordingly. As a result of your condition your going to have to work harder than the next guy. Play up your strengths, sell yourself, and continue to make the positive connections in your interviews. The hard work and drive it took you to overcome the limitations of your disability to even land those interviews given your circumstances is a testament to your potential. Develop a F**K you mentality to anyone who tells you otherwise.
I'd have to agree with Marcus here. If you REALLY need 25% more time to complete a numerical test (i.e. you have done 100+ tests and you still can´t get to the minimum score) you simply don´t have what it takes to do the job as well as someone without your disability.
Banking is an industry were time is crucial, and everything is urgent, so if everyone can do it in 75% of the time you can, then you simply are not a good candidate. Besides, they would have to give you less work, because no one can handle IBD+25% hours, so the rest of the team would have to work more.
Everyone has flaws, and if it's a disability or not is just a matter of drawing a line arbitrarily, so either you overcome it and go through the same process than everyone else, or that job isn't for you. And I don't find it unfair, no one is suited to do everything and I don't think you're being discriminated, I just think you can't do the job as well as the other candidates, whatever the reasons, and that's not discrimination. Discrimination is being able to do the job as well as anyone else and not get the job because something totally unrelated. Discrimination is if you the test and interviews better than anyone else but you don't get hired because you are black, which clearly doesn't have anything to do with your performance. That's not your case, you did worse in the test than everyone else and you can't do the job. You know, I wanted to be a football player and I never got there because I'm too small, too slow and I lack the technique. It's not fair I wasn't born with it and Cristiano Ronaldo was, but it's not discrimination.
And to be perfectly honest I find your complains quite disrespectful and tasteless to people who are really being discriminated.
FOR EVERYONE THAT THINKS I'M NOT ABLE TO DO THE JOB:
You have assumed that since I need additional time for my test, I also need additional time in the workplace. I can understand why you would say this, but it's pretty much wrong.
It's actually quite the opposite. The fact that in banking you have always high-urgence work provides me with enough stimulation to supply for the low dopamine. Simply put, I'm perfectly able to deliver an urgent 20 minute excel model or presentation as the other guy. Probably better, I'd say. So stop saying that banking is not for me, my experience has proven to me the contrary.
My problem lies solely with the test, for a series of reasons. You're free not to believe me, but this is my experience.
I never said I was being discriminated. You seem to lack attention to detail. Are you sure you're suited for finance?
@ RollinRoscoJames: thanks for the post.
@IHAVEABIGHEART: I have tried drugs, but unfortunately they don't do much for me. And I am currenly taking fish oil. With regards to the tests: Yes, I have been practicing them. I have spent the last three months cranking away. I have become pretty good when I have to take them at home and by myself. But having to take them in a room full of other people, and in a different format (online=/= paper) makes me lose precious minutes.
Also, while the above does happen, a lot of investment banking is a "long grind' rather than a "quick grind." What I mean is sometimes you need to spend 3 hours trying to research a list of companies in a particular space or spend five hours double checking a CIM for errors. This is incredibly tedious. If you need 25% more time than your peers on average to complete your work, you're going to run out of hours in a day.
That's like saying you can make all the practice shots but can't get an easy two in during the real game if your life depended on it. Rightly or wrongly, companies use test to screen people. It makes their jobs easier having a standardized process. Imagine if everyone asks for extra time if they claim to have ADHD (whether they really have it or not). You might really have it and it's affecting your performance on a stupid 20 minutes test. But that's the way life is. don't have the playa - hate the game.
Perhaps you should take som ecstasy.
So lets recap: 1. You share your disability with a bunch of curent bankers and banking hopefuls. 2. They immediately respond by telling you that most likely you're not cut out for the job.
What do you think that suggests about the level of disclosure you should be targetting when interviewing?
At the very least, don't make the disclosure before you get an offer. It's sometimes advised to not tell a potential employer about a disability until AFTER you get an offer since then if your offer gets rescinded, it's discrimination (not sure about the specific laws of your jurisdiction), but if you disclose before you get an offer, they could ding you for that but chalk it up to any variety of factors.
More specifically, asking for extra time is essentially a tradeoff; is it worth it to have 5 extra minutes on a 20 minute test at the cost of being labelled (fairly or not) a slow worker?
How did you perform well on the IQ test? Is it not timed?
Perform well.
People with far higher IQs would never use IQ as a way to desribe themselves, even if to demonstrate that they have overcome a mental disability. It is really tasteless to use IQ as a metric to define oneself.
It might be possible that the bank actually didn't like your attitude and didn't like you as a candidate, and they are trying to figure out how to tell you without getting themselves into trouble. Ask the posters on this site if they would hire you based on your attitude alone, disregarding your disability.
^ +1000
just like the truly wealthy find it extremely vulgar to talk about money
This.
Is there diversity recruiting in europe? I have a disability (very extreme) and because I'm registered with my schools disability office, recruiters literally came in last week to meet with students registered (1 on 1 meeting).
Diversity recruiting encompasses students with disabilities. I know for a FACT that so long as you have the mental capacity to do well academically if you have your accommodations, and those accommodations aren't necessary in the real world (learning a language is not necessary for banking or flat out memorizing a formula) then you're absolutely fine.
My advice would be to abstain from mentioning anything about your situation unless absolutely necessary (if you're taking exams to get super days, then it is necessary). However, once your in the interview, no need to tell anyone you've got x issue or y disability -- let them know your going to work as hard as your body and brain will let you and that's all they care about.
Goodluck -- and don't let anyone get you down about anything. I know how hard having a legit disability can be and I assure you if you don't let it get to you mentally in terms of confidence you'll be absolutely fine in life.
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