Non-target/diversity > MM SA > BB FT > MF PE
Hi all, somewhat surreal to be in this position, but now that OCR has ended I wanted to make a thread to office advice to anyone who wants it.
My quick background:
Went to a non-target, am non-diversity. Did my junior SA at a non-NYC MM firm (couldn’t land a EB/BB). Landed a BB NYC role for FT in a great group, and recently went through on-cycle and landed a MF PE offer.
Have definitely had my ups and downs, but am in a position now that many would consider “making it.” Know the struggle of going through SA recruiting, what trying to lateral post-summer is like, how to approach group placements, and how to prep for/land a PE offer.
Would be more than happy to answer questions on the above/about my experience, as I’ve used this platform extensively over the past few years and want to help others where possible.
Incoming FT analyst in IBD going through group placement in May. I have a formal programming where I rank groups and they rank me. I am not sure how similiar your process was, but can you talk about group placement? What kinds of questions you were asked, things to keep in mind, tips, etc.
Hey for sure! Went through this exact process last summer (i.e. offer was generalist/didn’t recruit into a specific group). This is a bit long winded but below are some important tips that allowed me to excel in the process:
Start Early
I started networking ~3 months before our start date/when placements ended up being due. Everyone kept telling me I was super early, and a lot of people delayed the calls a bit because they were still wrapping up SA placements. But I think getting my name around early really helped me, because later on when analysts were getting spammed for networking calls they were much more likely to reply to me because I had already had several calls with the group. One of the analysts in my group told me the other day that she thought this actually helped me out a lot. Also, this allowed me to network with more groups and more analysts, at a more casual pace. I probably spoke with ~50 analysts over the summer, focusing heavily on ~5 groups. It kinda sucked having to do calls while traveling/enjoying the summer, but it was worth it to land a good group.
Leverage your network
To get introduced to the groups, use whatever personal connections you have. I used the one alumni connection I had and a personal connection to get introduced to the groups I was interested in. The analysts will be much more likely to respond than to a cold email (now that I am on the other side I can say that with confidence).
Be personable
Being personable is super important. Essentially everyone is going to be smart/qualified, but the best way to leave an impression is to be personable. You can do this by being confident/well spoken (but not cocky), try to get to know the analyst personally (sometimes people will skip the “small talk” and the call feels kinda forced), be a good listener (ask specific follow up questions, make personal connections to things), etc. Having spoken with a ton of incoming interns recently, things that make me rate someone low: talked too much about themselves, the call was robotic/felt like they were reading off a script, they didn’t ask follow up questions/seem genuinely interested in the convo. People want someone they can enjoy hanging out with.
Take notes
This is super important and a general networking tip, but take notes on all your calls and keep a tracker in Excel about who you have spoken to and when. I would usually study up on my prior calls, then drop references in future calls - “I spoke with X Y and Z and have really enjoyed my conversations, X told me about this specific thing that interested me…” - which really makes you stand out. There are a ton of kids going through this process and you are easily forgettable. What makes conversations most memorable for me is when people drop specific references and can demonstrate a real interest in the group with specific examples (not hard to do).
Send targeted thank you’s
Per my point above on using specific examples - I also dislike/it is super noticeable if people are using copy/paste thank you notes for all their calls. You should mention a specific thing about your call - “I really enjoyed hearing about X deal, or Y aspect of the culture, which has further developed my interest in the group…” - this is a great way to stand out and make people remember you. Also you should obviously be asking at the end of every call for them to connect you with anyone else in the group who they think would be good to talk to.
Have a clear reason for “why X group”
This one is super important and super obvious. Have a clear and concise reason for “why X group.” Some people use a personal connection (i.e. dad was in tech, they used to be pre-med, etc.) but you can also develop an answer without one. Being able to clearly communicate in 1-2 sentences (and having a longer explanation if asked) will do wonders for you. The things I focused on were culture and deal flow/experience, and I used answers that I got in different conversations to form my “why this group” answer. For example, when I talked about culture I would mention the people I spoke with and different examples they gave me about what stood out about the culture. For the experience, I would usually talk about how broad an industry was/the types of deals you get to work on and how I found that super interesting. Again, it’s not hard and I think the most common mistakes are not being able to articulate this clearly/consisely, and not using personal examples (people will notice if you give some general BS answer).
Ask good questions/structure the calls
This one is also obvious but not enough people know how to do it. Start out with some small talk, then offer to do a QUICK (should be under a minute, people get bored if longer) run through of your background, ask for theirs, and then ask questions. You can start with basic questions if it is your first call with the group, but as you speak with more people you should ask more specific questions about their experience. Asking good follow up questions is also important (e.g. if someone tell you they lateraled from a different group/bank, ask them why and what stands out about the group they joined!). Some more in-depth questions I asked were about industry dynamics (e.g. impact of regulation on deals), opportunities to work cross border, do you work with other coverage teams on deals, etc. Get past the “tell me about a deal” or “tell me about the culture” questions that EVERYONE asks (those are okay to start a convo but should not be the entire convo, especially if this is your 5th call with the group).
Thank you so much, really appreciate you taking the time to write this out for me. Congrats on your new role aswell very well deserved.
Hey - non target/non diversity joining a top BB group for FT (MS M&A/GS TMT). For on-cycle, how much did coming from a non-target school hinder your ability to interview at the top firms (KKR/BX)? What was your GPA?
Big congrats on landing that, I know how challenging that can be!
That’s a great question. Personally I didn’t find that it hindered me. What was more important for OCR was the group I was in, my resume (having good experience), and the conversations I had with headhunters (demonstrating that I am well-spoken, know my deal talk, etc.).
I am in a top group at “mid” tier BB, and I got interview invites for most MFs, including Bx, Carlyle, TPG, CD&R, etc. And this was even after I had only expressed interest in a certain subset of funds (i.e. I told the headhunters I wanted a specific group at certain MFs).
My undergrad GPA is 4.0 but, if anything, standardized test scores are more important, especially coming from a non-target (every HH asked for your test scores/I had them on my resume). But ultimately the group/bank you are at and your deal talk is most important.
Thanks for the helpful post. Just on your last point, did you find that UMM or MM funds cared as much about your standardized scores? Is it an instant "no" if your standardized score aren't at the top decile?
What are your test scores like? I have pretty average SAT scores and also coming from a nontarget but diversity.
hey I'm in the same situation as the poster above (nontarget, nondiversity, joining top BB group FT next year).
To follow up on your 3rd paragraph, does being too specific with HHs hurt you down the road? I've read that you should be very specific with HHs and tell them exactly what city, fund size, industry etc you're looking at but will they show you opportunities outside the subset of funds that you mention? I'm open to both SF and NY and wondering if I should just say SF if they'll show me NY opportunities anyway.
Also, did you use any methods to stand out from your competition? I recruited into a coverage group for IB and believe I was able to stand out because of my past knowledge/genuine interest in the industry for example. Is that necessary/useful for PE interviews or is just acing the technicals good enough?
Thanks for doing this. How important was your deal experience? I'm a first year but I haven't closed a M&A deal since I started. I'm unsure whether I'd close one when on-cycle rolls around next year. Was having at least a few sizable closed/announced deals extremely important for getting the pull and offer?
Happy to help. I found that deal talk was the most important thing interview, not deal experience.
As some background, I’ve barely closed any deals - done a few financings and that’s pretty much it. It’s expected for deals to be confidential/in-process, so you can essentially spin your experience however you like. I personally put the “deals” on my resume where I had the most ownership of the model/the best understanding of the company - you can honestly use pitches and just say that you just got mandated or are in the early stages of the process. They aren’t going to grill you on the process unless you lie about it, you just need to be 100% comfortable with the model/financials and be able to talk about the company/why it would make a good target.
So point being, if you’ve worked on some models that should be more than enough to get by if you prepare properly, have your story together, and can speak to it confidently/accurately.
What is your strategy for lateraling from SA?
Wrote about this in another thread a while back, but at a high level here are a few things that helped.
Knowing I wanted to lateral from the start
I knew I wanted to lateral before even starting. Was disappointed with how my recruiting process went and wanted to be at a BB/in NYC. Having this clarity early on lead me to keep in touch with my contacts at different banks prior to the summer, and then be able to naturally hit them up right before/during the summer to express my interest in potentially lateraling. Obviously helps a lot if you aren’t hitting up someone you talked to a year ago and asking them for a job.
I hit up every connection I had to keep a pulse on different banks
Seriously. At banks where I had a strong connection, I used that person. But at a lot of banks I hadn’t kept up with anyone, so I literally hit up old HR contacts I had spoken with during recruiting and they were my point of contact. For one bank I hit up a super senior guy who gave a speech at my school (he wasn’t an alum) and he referred me directly to their head of HR. Also hit up my friends who were doing SA internships (this is easier to do at boutiques) and they connected me with someone who was handling the FT process. I ultimately landed my FT spot through a random connection in my network who new I wanted to lateral.
Apply to everything (if you want to)
Last point. I knew I wanted to be in NYC really badly, so I was applying to tons of stuff on different websites/LinkedIn/even my school job board. Got a few interviews at random places that I might have considered taking if the BB hadn’t worked out. You can’t be super picky so keep your options open. I also used WSO a lot right after the summer to get an idea of which banks were doing FT recruiting/had finished processes.
Thanks for the thread, and congrats. I’m an incoming summer at a BB where there have been people who have left for buyside roles after graduating. Do you have any advice on the full-time recruiting process? Given OCR gives you many more options, how do you think about the options you have right after college vs. the ones you have during OCR?
Thank you! That’s an interesting question. It’s not something I really considered, because I wasn’t set on PE and also probably couldn’t have landed a MF right out of school. Looking back at it now, I definitely wouldn’t have tried to recruit for the buy side right out of school even if I had the option, for a number of reasons:
1. It’s hard to land a really “good” PE job (i.e. MF) out of school because there are so few spots available.
2. I’ve heard of kids who joined MFs out of college and got absolutely grinded - like worse than banking, where you are essentially made to prove yourself and as a result work awful hours.
3. I would miss being around so many people my age. I love being part of a big team and being able to go out with other analysts, shoot the shit, and have that collegial/friendly environment. I’ve heard PE is much more buttoned up, and there are way less juniors/overall employees so as a result you miss out on that culture. I think that would be really tough coming right out of school, working awful hours, and not having that group of friends with you. I also understand not every group in banking is like this, but having a group with good culture really makes the experience so much better.
4. Less options. In 1 year I went from being in a position where no MF would ever interview me given my background, to being able to interview at any MF I want and choose what I want to do. I landed a spot at my #1 choice, in the city I wanted. I was able to pick a fund where I like the people/work, while you probably won’t have that option recruiting right out of school.
5. More options in banking. If you ulitmately decide you don’t want to stay in high-finance, I think banking gives the better brand-name/general career options than PE. Most people know the names of the BBs, so you have more options after 1-2 years, while if you go to a PE fund out of school (especially an obscure one) it might give you less ability to make a career pivot.
That’s all I can think about off the top of my head. Apologies if any of that didn’t make sense as it’s kinda late and my brain is kinda tired. But yea, I would definitely choose banking out of school - I think it gives you more options (both if you want to do PE after/if you don’t) and a better experience if you prioritize joining a group with good culture (more friends/fun stuff and probably easier hours).
If you don't mind sharing -- what were your test scores?
Congrats! I'm an incoming summer analyst at a MM in Chi. Do you have any advice on the full-time recruiting process for BB/EB? Always wanted to break into BB/EB, but didn't get the chance this time around. Thanks!
Thank you! See my answer above but I’ll add a bit more. I found that landing an interview (similar to the SA process) was infinitely harder than landing the job. It’s extremely difficult to get into a process, but the actual process was super easy - no first round, literally applied and then had 3 basic virtual interviews for my superday and got the offer.
I’m about to go to bed, but below is my previous answer from another thread to add on to the above:
I knew I wanted to lateral so in the spring (which is nowish for you) was reaching back out to the strongest points from the network I established while networking for my SA role. Telling them I wanted to catch up and get advice for how to do best during the summer and get a return offer.
Then I spoke with the same people throughout the summer and let them know how it was going/expressed interest in FT. This was mainly for BB roles, and then for the boutiques I either hit up my friends or alumni network to start talking to HR connections to see if they were planning to take any additional FT hires.
Almost none of them turned out, but someone in my network had a pulse on the cycle at their bank so I was able to get directly involved and then recieved and accepted an offer. Really just a numbers game so the more connections the better, and firms post a decent number of FT jobs online (LinkedIn, school job board, etc.) so definitely worth applying to those to.
Obviously don't let the bank you intern at/accept an offer at know you are still recruiting, but it's ultimately up to how much work you are willing to do to land it. It was a lot of effort to be networking/applying for jobs during the summer/senior year, but I got lucky that 1 connection (all you need) turned out and it completely changed my life (went from MM random city to BB NYC).
Hope that helps. TLDR; start renetworking early - during spring, so that it doesn't feel forced when you start asking about FT spots. Keep in touch throughout spring and summer, and leverage all the connections you made/have. Apply for a bunch of roles and have as many conversations as possible, and hope you get lucky
When you recruited for FT after SA, what would you say to your contacts? Would you send them an email that says "hey I'm looking to lateral" or would you be more indirect about it? Also on timing: I'm thinking it wouldn't look good if you told your contacts you wanted to lateral before even starting your SA, so did you wait until later summer?
I think it depends on the relationship. I wouldn’t just write in an email that I was looking to lateral, but like I said above I would schedule a catch-up call where you can just chat with them and then say you are starting soon and ask for advice for the summer.
If they are a closer contact (alumni/someone you spoke with a bit during SA recruiting) you can definitely express in that initial call that you are still very interested in their bank and ask if they have any advice for positioning yourself to land a FT interview at the end of summer. If you don’t do it in the initial call, then schedule a follow up with them halfway through the summer and express it then.
For the random connections (i.e. had a friend connect me with HR at his EB), I would schedule those calls mid-summer and express interest/ask how to position yourself then as well. Banks want good candidates so unless the person you’re speaking with is roommates with someone at your current bank, it’s not bad to say that you are interested in their bank/ask about potential openings/what their recruiting process will look like.
What ethnicity and gender?
What height?
How was the on-cycle process? When did you start preparing and what advice would you give towards those going through it in the future?
Pretty stressful but nice in the sense that it’s much shorter than any previous process (i.e. SA/FT recruiting, placements).
I didn’t really start preparing until the HHs started reaching out. You can start earlier, but tbh there isn’t that much of a need to (unless you get unlucky and are getting slammed when on-cycle starts). If anything, what would be helpful to do early on is talk to second-years/friends who went to PE, and get a sense of what you actually want to do, which you have to explain to the HHs. I think because it is so sudden, a lot of people don’t really know (myself included) and so there is a lot of stress about trying to decide in ~1 week what you want to do 1 year into the future. You can also put your resume into the PE format (ask 2nd years for example) and then fill out the deal part as you get experience, just so you’re not rushing to redo it when the HHs reach out.
As soon as the HHs reached out, I got my resume in order and filled out all the apps. The process was about 1.5 weeks this year (they reached out like Tuesday of week 1, scheduled calls the following Tuesday/Wednesday, and then interviews started Thursday night). So essentially as soon as it hits you need to fix your resume and start preparing - I didn’t go out that 1 weekend in between so that I could study on Sunday and not be hungover.
With regards to the prep, at a high level the most important things to study are your behavorals (especially “why X fund/area” and “tell me about your deals”) and modeling tests. It’s very much like banking interviews, except you don’t really have to memorize the 400 questions, assuming that you have good finance knowledge from your work (I got asked 1 question from the guide; walk me from EBIT to FCF). Definitely have your deal knowledge down to a T, as that is what gets asked most in the interviews. And also you obviously need to have a good answer for why you are interested in the fund/whatever area it operates in.
For the modeling tests, you should see if the second years in your group have them - definitely know a paper LBO and a full 1-hr excel model. I had to do a paper LBO (no calc) at the first fund I interviewed at, and a full excel LBO at the second place. It’s really not that hard if you’ve worked on some debt pay down models, you just need to practice a few times and memorize a few of the nuances that come up in the models.
Like I said, I honestly think the nice thing is that it wraps up so quickly/isn’t drawn out. My whole process was ~1.5 weeks, I missed 1 weekend of going out, interviewed all Thursday night/got cut, interviewed all Friday and landed the job. Was definitely a very stressful week and the 2 days I interviewed were absolutely brutal, but it was over quickly and turned out for me.
Hope this helps, lmk if any other questions!
Bumping this thread in case anyone has any questions about PE recruiting
Congrats man! Quick question - let's assume someone has a very similar background to yours, except they have a ~3.7 GPA and average test scores (1450-1500 SAT, 33-34 ACT) - how much harder would the initial filter with HHs be? Would you get MF PE interviews?
Also, how much would taking the GMAT and getting a great score help in this case?
That’s a good question, in that case your bank/group would be very important to make up for it. So if you are at a good bank/group I still think you could get looks even with that GPA/test scores.
Regarding the GMAT, I don’t think it really makes any difference and is not something that was asked about. I guess if you were taking it your senior year regardless and scored well, you could include it on your resume to show that your standardized test scores have improved.
Et consequatur consequatur explicabo. Sit quo fugit ullam fuga recusandae. Perferendis commodi velit ipsum autem perspiciatis aperiam amet. Voluptatum consequatur aspernatur in aut odio recusandae quidem.
Inventore voluptatum eius autem est libero facilis. Totam natus est nisi veritatis. Dicta impedit quaerat sunt exercitationem et est repellat dolor.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Incidunt quo dignissimos commodi voluptas omnis expedita fuga. Expedita sit laudantium nulla nulla et accusamus sint. Impedit distinctio ipsa et. At odio sit dolorem explicabo velit. Ipsum iste dolore ut. Optio nisi nesciunt distinctio.
Molestiae dolorem facere cum aliquid fugiat eos quis. Et qui voluptatibus aliquam voluptatum. Tempora dolor sed repudiandae est consectetur. Animi non facilis porro et occaecati. Deleniti molestiae cumque voluptas.