Oxbridge vs. non-HYPSW targets for NYC/Chi IB
I was recently made an unconditional offer to pursue a BA in economics at an Oxbridge university (Oxford PPE/Oxford E&M/Cambridge Economics). While I wouldn't have to worry about Work Visas as I'm an American national, I'd imagine that it'd still be quite difficult for me to obtain a BB/EB IB role 'across the pond', even if I'm studying at an institution as well-regarded as Oxford/Cambridge. As a result, I think it's fair to assume I'd have an easier time getting an IB role in the US if I attended HYPSW than if I attended Oxbridge.
With that being said, I'd love to know if non-HYPSW target universities (Duke/Dartmouth/Columbia/Penn/UChicago) are also stronger than Oxbridge for NYC/Chi IB placement.
The tutorial/supervision system and the college system both deeply appeal to me, so IB placement is far from the be-all-end-all in my college decision-making process. Having said that, I'd still love to hear what you guys think about the question I posed above.
Bump
If it's Columbia/Penn/Uchicago - then that's the move for sure. Oxbridge is prestigious, but recruiting will still be difficult.
If it's Dartmouth/duke - it would still be easier to recruit there for U.S BB/EB, but Oxbridge would be cooler IMO.
Thanks for the comment!
If recruiting's easier from all the targets I listed above, then which US universities would be equal to Oxbridge in terms of NYC/Chi IB recruitment difficulty? Schools like Georgetown MSB and Cornell Dyson? Or would a better comparison be schools like Notre Dame Mendoza and Berkeley Haas?
Bump
If you want to work in the US, then any target in the US would be better than Oxbridge. But Oxbridge does great in London, so maybe you could still go there, recruit for London, and transfer to the US later on?
Thanks for the response!
From what I've read, NYC IB seems to have higher entry pay and better PE exit opportunities, so is it fair to assume that it's pretty competitive to internally transfer from London to NYC? I'd have no issues with working in London for 2-3 years, but I'm worried that at the end of my analyst stint, I'd have no way of moving back to the US without switching banks or changing positions. Is this a valid concern?
Internal transfer to NYC is competitive but you being American would be a significant leg up (because no visa issues). It certainly would be much easier than recruiting from Oxbridge for the US, which is near impossible because of how recruiting is structured
Hey man, congratulations on your Oxbridge offer, not an easy one to get.
I wrote on the topic quite a bit - check out my existing posts - mainly this one :
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/lse-vs-nyu-stern#comment-1837977
if you have any unanswered questions just shoot!
SB'd! Thanks for linking that.
Just a few questions for you:
1. Do you know of any exchange programs for Oxbridge students to study in America? I've only ever heard of programs for American students to study at Oxbridge. If so, are Oxbridge students able to network with US teams/offices during their exchange programs?
2. I've read that some US EB's recruit earlier than the April-June time span that most US BB's recruit during. Is this true? If so, would Oxbridge students be able to recruit for these earlier US EB's since they'd no longer be recruiting during their exams?
3. I've read that some students at universities with unconventional academic calendars do off-cycle internships (UChicago specifically). Is this true? And if so, do banks extend these opportunities to Oxbridge students as well? Or do banks only give off-cycle internships to students at specific US universities?
Thanks a lot!
1. There are - but would not 100% count on it to recruit for the US, these are most often (all as far as I know) in your final year (hence too late). Friend doing eng was supposed to go to Princeton for his final year but Covid... Also networking from there would be rather challenging as often not able to 100% join competitive clubs, would be very discounted as only there for an exchange (and maybe just a term - roughly half a semester).
2. Could be true, not sure as not US based but even then would be very much revision period for your exams (Oxbridge classes are hard as fuck - no bullshit grade inflation), regardless point about no US network still applies.
3. Don't know too much about that, seen some people from Dartmouth indeed have off cycle but not sure how it works. At oxbridge you will have classes every term so not able to join these/off cycles in London.
Seems like you are trying to go to Oxbridge but do IB in NYC, to put this simply - odds will be against you. Surely the best for your long term career but if you are short sighted not the best choice for NYC IB.
Don’t you think that Oxbridge would provide you with a differentiated experience ? (From a life experience standpoint)
Also IMO a lot cooler to graduate from Oxbridge than Duke etc, would probably look better on your CV/team page when you work on buy side also
Thanks for your comment! Your point about buy-side recruiting wasn't something I'd considered.
Yeah, you're absolutely right about the Oxbridge experience. Whether it's because of the academics, the societies and student body, or the history and global pedigree, I'm not sure if a school exists in any part of the World that I'd want to attend more than my Oxbridge university - HYPSW or otherwise.
I created this thread because I'm curious about Oxbridge's US IB placement, not because I'm choosing my university by solely evaluating job prospects for one career in one country and in one specific city. With that being said, your comment's a great reminder that there's much more to college than the job offers you end up receiving.
Oxbridge. Oxford/Cambridge are still way more well known internationally than Harvard
Hmm on Europe at least, Harvard is more prestigious. But Oxbridge = S > YP
In Asia that could be. I know LSE is very famous there as well
Lol no, it’s the other way around. No offense to Oxbridge though, it’s the HYPS of Europe
I'd agree with the others. Oxbridge is an L for US recruiting. If you want to work in London or somewhere in Europe, it's a great choice, but if you want to work in the US, any target would be much better. There is a possibility of transferring to the US, but it really depends on the firm and obviously it's not guaranteed because there will be limited spots and high competition
As a current Columbia student, I’d take Oxbridge in a heartbeat. It's personal preference and Columbia might be better for NYC banking job, but concept of studying at those places are just non-negotiable.
In terms of recruiting, any of ivy and others you mentioned should be better for recruiting in NYC and Chi, not because of prestige but alumni. You will have to fight your way up from none-target basket.
From what I aw in the past recruiting cycle, all schools are similar for their placements to IB, but Dartmouth and Duke alumni are more loyal to their alma mater. You will have to compete with Wharton at Penn, and Columbia is not a super banking heavy school so we aren't target at many places surprisingly.
I am only a current Undergrad at Oxbridge but I would advise you to make the lifestyle/culture a major factor in your decision making. I think you can have a great career from any of those Universities but your University experience (which is very important) might be vastly different.
Look at the sports, societies, modules (I imagine you'll have shorter list of options in the UK) and accommodation. American football ain't as big here, neither is baseball or ice hockey etc. As you mentioned, also consider the Supervisions/Tutorials experience as well as the fact that a Collegiate experience provides a more intimate/closer community feel.
I haven't heard of many debates between Oxbridge vs HYPSW and going to Oxbridge here in the UK will definitely add the 'wow factor' when you are interviewing or speaking with other candidates (I can tell from personal experience). Not sure if it has the same impact in the US.
bruh fuck Duke or all that jazz, I go to one of HYPSW and would love to do Oxbridge. Academic experience seems way better. Seems like a positive life move.
The global co-head of M&A @GS studied at Oxford. He started at London, moved to NY, and then back. I think if your goal is something like GS, it is a heck of a lot easier doing it at Oxford than it is at Duke.
I also see you talking about money being higher at entry level in the US. That is 100% true. Do you want to know what is higher in the US? Tuition and CoL. And certainly CoL in New York as a student for 4 years is going to tear your ass a new one, and that’s before tuition.
A quick glance: ~35k USD tuition at Oxford for *3* years=105k by graduation plus lower living costs (Oxford isn’t in London, it’s much cheaper). The average living cost for Oxford students is 15k USD per year of study. So the total should be 150k and out.
Now compare to Columbia uni: 66k USD per year, for 4 years, that’s 264k. Plus average cost of room and food=14k/year=56k (apparently, I imagine it’s more but their uni site is bullchittin me or they assume a diet of beans n’ toast)= 320k total. Then you have to look at the interest you’re paying on the student loan if your parents aren’t rich or if you don’t have a scholarship. And now add the opportunity cost (both in experience & in salary) of an extra year of work graduating within 3 years vs 4.
It will take you several years to make up for the difference in cost, even with US higher pay. And if you’re smart enough and consistently top quartile, you’ll already have moved from London to NY, except you did it at GS’s TMT/M&A instead of Citibank industrials. The competition is different when you go to Oxford vs when you go to Duke, or even Columbia.
Oxbridge are the (non-MBA) H/S/W equivalent in the entirety of Europe — anywhere you apply you get interviews. Worst case scenario, you apply from Oxbridge to H/S/W MBA and get in, coming in as an Oxbridge candidate rather than an American (much easier, you’re more international and it adds to their targets). If you’re exclusively concerned about starting salary, go get a job in Zurich.
Now, a disclaimer, whether being Columbia alumni is worth the difference in fees — I don’t know. Columbia will have an insane alumni base in all Wall Street banks, but it won’t have the same respect of Oxbridge undergrad, and it will take you 1 year longer, and in the worst case you can use that year for post-grad, anywhere you want, and then have double the alum base. You’ll now be a much more interesting person, too.
If you really don’t see a future, go the H/S/W MBA route post-experience. That is just my take though — if you’re absolutely set on New York or bust — and you can’t imagine a world in which you would do an MBA, this shouldn’t be a question and Columbia is the easy choice. (I don’t know why I just wrote an essay but you’re welcome)
Having gone to one of "Oxbridge", the fetishing of it on this site is ridiculous. If you get a mid or low 2:1, as 30-50% of your class will, your chances of BB/EB are very minimal. This isn't the US with OCR, and the advantage over Imperial and LSE is very minimal for finance (but more considerable for consulting). As I said in another post, a First from UCL/Warwick will always beat a 2:1 from Oxbridge, ceteris paribus. Outside of those six unis, it gets more difficult. There's reasons to choose Oxbridge, especially the college and tutorial system, but don't expect it to be your golden ticket to success - it is not, say a Harvard MBA or Yale Law.
I'd also add that a real risk that you run at Oxbridge is getting caught up in the academics side of things and not focusing enough on careers. One of the reasons that Cambridge in particular has a surprisingly low average graduate salary is that people just go through their degree and don't really think about recruiting until the final year. My friends at the London unis (read LSE, Imperial, and UCL, not KCL, SOAS, etc.) were far more on top of recruiting than most people in my college, and the on-campus presentations just tend to be a little less prominent here - plus it's easier to travel to evening events in offices I guess. LSE also has the distinct advantage of a relatively low workload, which allows some people to intern part-time throughout the year. Oxbridge wants you to become an academic and at least in my experience, somewhat neglects career stuff as universities. That said, some of the societies are still very good (especially the Oxford Guild), but I think it's worth emphasising that the university's focus is on you becoming an academic, and it really only has anything close to Harvard/Yale recruiting power in law (and to a lesser extent, MBB consulting, but that's changing).
I agree with this. This forum is very US-centric and users therefore think that what works in the US works in Europe. Nothing could be further from the truth. Grades matter a lot more and schools place significantly more emphasis on academics in Europe. As a result of school being harder in Europe than in the US, it's also harder to stand out to BBs/EBs/MBB. While an average target candidate might get a top bank/consultancy in the US (and conversely, a high GPA target student may strike out in recruiting) , that won't work in Europe, where you have to obtain the right grades
Oxbridge is a golden ticket. The only way it isn’t a golden ticket is if you decided to sit on your ass for 3 years without participating in a single society or club while also not obtaining a single useful internship that you can talk about in your interviews. Oxbridge has the “wow” factor and an unbeatable alumni pool in Europe, Warwick just checks a box. It is certainly no HSW MBA, but it is as close to it as you can come in Europe barring LBS MBA (IBD wise, or INSEAD for consulting, IMD for industry).
A first from Warwick is nowhere near a 2:1 from Oxbridge, and that really isn’t debatable. A simple linkedin search will show you PLENTY of students who did Oxbridge undergrad in Music, Arts and other irrelevant degrees yet are now investment bankers at elite BB or solicitors at Kirkland & Ellis (£150k/year upon qualification). You just can’t find that at Warwick. You have to be in the top percents to do that at Warwick, with a relevant degree, and/or you’ll need 2+ internships unless you are a networking god.
Would echo this.
At the risk of relying heavily on anecdotal evidence:
1) My four person team at the fund I work at (we run the L/S equity book for Europe) comprises 3 Oxbridge arts graduates with 2:1s and one continental European.
2) I started in sell-side ER, and the grad intake in my year / year above / year below was ~15 people in total. I'd say we're now roughly 1/3 1/3 1/3 between still in ER, leaving the industry entirely, and moving to the buy side. Oxbridge grads massively over-represented in the latter category, other UK 'finance specialist' unis (Warwick / LSE etc) massively over-represented in the first group. From friends that started at different banks, same tends to be true there.
3) I had Oxbridge undergrad + 2.5 years BB SS ER, and got interviews everywhere I applied when I started looking to move to the buyside. Not sure this is a typical experience.
For better or for worse, Oxbridge opens doors in the UK a lot of other unis don't, and you have the luxury of being able to study something you actually enjoy without closing those doors (there is no business/finance course offered at Oxbridge, the closest is probably Economics & Management which has a tiny intake compared to PPE). A lot of places use 'Oxbridge undergrad' as a quick filter to identify bright early 20-somethings who are (again for better or for worse) perceived as more rounded individuals / more interesting to work with on a day-to-day basis than someone who has just spent 4 years studying finance, because of all the other opportunities available to students there.
I definitely agree with the academic focus at Oxbridge - I know people that didn't bother applying for internships until now and many more that probably won't think about careers until their final year. And yhh the workload at Oxbridge is tough and trying to balance everything can be very difficult, especially with recruiting and networking events.
I would strongly disagree with the 2:1 vs a First part though. I feel like a 2:1 from Oxbridge would definitely be valued more than a First from the other listed Universities in most degree subjects. I doubt employers even care much about it since when you are applying for spring weeks you wouldn't have done any exams and when you are applying for summer internships your 1st year results might not even count.
Its not a golden ticket but my Oxbridge friends have definitely not struggled in terms of getting past the application stage and into 1st rounds of interviews, especially compared to my friends at other target Universities.
Thanks for shedding light! This was super insightful. Would you mind sharing how MBB recruitment at Oxbridge is changing?
I would echo this thing about consulting. Oxbridge virtually ensures interviews at MBB. Whatever fields you may study. This is not something that other London unis (LSE, Imperial, UCL) can guarantee on the same level, so definitely on par with HSYP on that front. Consulting is a nice optionality to have imo.
As for IB, Oxbridge is underrepresented vs. LSE and LBS, but I think this is more a function of the econ/finance focus of London schools. I would say it actually helps to be at Oxbridge vs. LSE/LBS due to 1) higher prestige 2) less people applying hence more of a school differentiation
I work at a European fund in the US and we had a couple people who went to non-US MBAs just ping our European recruiters to get into the US recruiting pipeline.
They both got offers and it was pretty seamless. Realistically you could do the same or just ping UK and Aussie bankers to get into the summer analyst pipelines.
You have to look at the successes of other people as a result of lots of self selection. There are probably not many Americans who go to Oxbridge with the goal of coming back to do US IB out of undergrad. Thus, you're not going to find too many people who have "successfully" done that. If you want to do banking, just do Oxbridge with the mindset that you're going to have a differentiated path from the rest of your classmates there. There is no way that you won't be able to get interviews at US banks if you're emailing analysts with the subject line "Oxford student interested in Moelis NY." It's way more interesting than "Duke student interested in Moelis NY." The reason why you might see more "success" with US banking recruiting from these US schools is largely because kids go to those schools with the goal of doing banking. You have to look at the flow problem in this way. Currently at Wharton but if I were in your shoes I'd go to Oxbridge in a heartbeat. I think the intellectual experience would be much, much better there. My biggest qualm with the kids here is that there is an extreme lack of intellectually curiosity. Yes, recruiting will be a little more tricky for US banks from Oxbridge but it is definitely doable, and you will likely be a much better thinker graduating from there.
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