Sibling ED to Amherst/Williams (or WASP)
Current H/Y/P student who had to work his ass off from a public high school and then again in college. My sibling (non-recruited athlete) likes the LAC environment (more calm doesn't want to grind) and is aiming for Amherst/Williams, either for big law/finance (mostly IB/PE/HF maybe VC idk). He's unsure and we're visiting both campuses in the fall, but I just wanted an inside scoop.
Obviously career prospects aren't the only thing (but they're still important).
Generally people view Amherst and Williams the same, but is there a difference? I saw Williams crushes placement in GS, Citi, and Gugg and the Viking founder went there, but I've heard stories about excessive nepotism.
On the other hand, Amherst places less moreso into EBs , but is really well known for law.
Just wanted to ask, what are your experiences, how is placement, is it actually considered a target or low-semi target? Will he have to hustle more, and how is buyside placement?
Is everyone generally successful for recruiting, or are there a lot of hardos and ppl striking out?
in terms of recruiting, i consider williams/amherst to be semi-targets/targets. Much of the GS people coming from W are diversity/nepo, only 1-2 that are not. Gugg also recruits heavily nepo, many people at Gugg who were on sports teams like picking sophomores from the same sports team. Interesting. That being said, alums are at every major bank and are relatively easier to get on the phone with than at other schools. If your brother grinds freshman, sophomore year, gets on a phone with alums, he'll have plenty of opportunities to interview across both BB/EB, at least that was my experience as a non-nepo non-diversity.
Can't speak much for Amherst, but I remember reaching out to their alumni at BB/EB when recruiting, and they were also happy to talk. NESCACs help each other out.
That being said, being a non-athlete at one of these schools can be isolating, as much of the social scenes revolve around sports teams. Adding the rural environment of both, especially W, etc.
Source: W alum at top BB
Interesting. Will keep in mind. Anyone know anything about Amherst?
Went to A/W/Middlebury. If he isn't an athlete he shouldn't bother. I've posted a lot about them. I'll copy paste some of the comments I've left on other threads about them below...
"100% agree on the fact that as a non-athlete Williams & Amherst lose their target status. I'd go as far as to say it goes from a target to a semi-target if you're not an athlete.
For OP, I'd also ask why do you like the LAC environment so much? I went to Williams/Amherst/Middlebury, and I can 100% guarantee you the environments there are more like "glorified new england boarding schools" than they are "liberal arts colleges" the way I'd consider an Oberlin, Swarthmore or hell even Wesleyan to be."
"I commented elsewhere not too long ago...
"It was astonishing how much of the recruiting at these schools was captured by the athlete ecosystem. Like I'm talking about sports teams having separate info sessions, many alumni explicitly only helping those who played their sport, amongst other things."
This time I want to provide more context on one of those "other things" as it'll give you more color. My junior year I had an on-campus job at the career center, and (I might get some shit here for what I did being unethical but whatever) I was able to do some digging through the system to see the resumes my peers submitted for certain internships. So, so many people who ended up getting good SA roles, good FT roles and now, 11 years post-graduation have the best roles were those with the sub 3.5 GPA who played a sport. Like I'm talking I vividly remember certain people with 3.7+ GPAs who are legitimately more impressive people who didn't play a sport not landing the same opportunities as those who did."
"I went to a NESCAC y'all would consider a target (Williams/Amherst/Middlebury) so I can offer some color on this. If you're not an athlete, I would think long and hard about actually going to Williams/Amherst.
For typical IB/PE path, if you're not an athlete it could be seriously argued these schools are semi-targets. It was astonishing how much of the recruiting at these schools was captured by the athlete ecosystem. Like I'm talking about sports teams having separate info sessions, many alumni explicitly only helping those who played their sport, amongst other things.
It's different for "quant" roles, with the profile of all those in my graduating class who went into that all some sort of Math double major (and Asian lol). But it wasn't lights outplacement (Two Sigma, AQR, Jane Street), just random funds + one guy who ended up at Citadel a few years post-graduation. Not athletes. But from speaking with them the process didn't sound like there were alums involved, just random resume drops."
About Amherst, the nepo/athlete divide isn't as strong over here as williams or other NESCACS. There are kids in my SA class LAZ/EVR/MOE/PJT who were non-athletes from Amherst.
Being an athlete helps like any other club (YSIG and Yale, Lionfund and Columbia) but I wouldn't say it is that drastic
Is middlebury seriously a target?
It places well for its size, but the folks who usually get good seats are nepo or athletes. Decent pipeline to GS & MS and usually places a couple kids at EBs each year. There's no competitive club that helps with recruiting so it's really up to the individual to grind. Overall it's a semi but definitely the best LAC after W/A and maybe Bowdoin.
If you break it down numerically, non-athletes from Middlebury still place reasonably well in IB.
First, this is a liberal arts college, not a massive feeder with everyone interested in IB. The political culture at Middlebury is very liberal to say the least, and anti-capitalist. Econ might be the most popular major, but realistically, maybe 10–15% of the ~650-person class is interested in banking. Then factor in that a huge chunk of the school, let's conservatively say 50%, comes from very high-income backgrounds and likely has some kind of nepo angle (Middlebury is one of the top 5 highest parent median income colleges). Now subtract the ~50% of students who are athletes, who do better in recruiting, you are left with ~15 people or so that are recruiting and are non-nepo and non-athlete (around ~2.5% of the class).
~5 of those land offers yearly, ranging from MM's to BB/EB's IB or solid MM+ PE spots, that’s a ~30–35% success rate, which is pretty in line with what you’d expect at a traditional target. It’s just that the pool is smaller, more self-selected, and the non-Nepo/non-athlete crowd has to grind a little harder (but this is the case everywhere).
Think the real problem with Middlebury placement is not getting in, but rather that most Middlebury alumni are in capital markets, and for better or worse, people on this forum are vastly more interested in coverage/M&A seats. If you exclude the capital market's placements, Middlebury doesn't do very well (maybe 8-10 going to solid MM's/BB's/EB's in IB from all of Middlebury when counting only coverage seats in T1 cities). That's due to a mix of student interest and alumni placement/marketing from alumni.
Amherst student here: athlete/non-athlete divide exists socially while on campus, but not with networking. I'm the exact opposite of an athlete, but I got great support during my recruiting cycle from alums and upperclassmen on hockey, lacrosse, soccer, squash, and track (lacrosse alumni especially were really helpful, even though I was initially kinda scared of them). The population of people recruiting here is so small (30~40 per year) that everyone is willing to help.
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