Worried about potential layoff at my firm via PIP
I am at a reputable MM IB and 2/3rds of the Direct Analyst Hire Class put on PIP, myself included. I think this is a way for the firm to just reduce their liability and not call the layoff a layoff and make it seem like some performance issue at the bank, which is BS given we all were here only for 6 months and we're a small team. The group's revenues compared to last year are down by a very material amount too so there's that too.
I feel extremely demoralized and tired that my major achievements have been brushed aside and all the tiny mistakes I've made are now being zeroed in on. I see a lot of banks are laying off people right now too so I'm really hoping I can network into another bank in the coming months and have a fresh reset. Is my career screwed if I get fired? I really just want to be with a banking group that doesn't pull this on their new analysts.
Also, worst comes to worst and I can't land an IB job in the next few months - if I take a corp dev or FP&A role, can I go back to banking at a BB / EB potentially?
Very likely. Shitty way to do things, but you should just consider this your notice and recruit hard into the new year.
You're unlikely to land IB right now, the market is VERY tight and most banks are not hiring. 6 months in is also unfortunate timing because most places (IB or otherwise) hired their first years through an intern/FT program and don't have openings. Of course apply and network to any IB openings but I think you're more likely to slot into a first year spot in FP&A, corp dev, etc. If the market picks back up in a year or two you can move back to IB - maybe not BB/EB unless you land a F100 corp dev job, but certainly back to MM.
I appreciate you writing this out, I'm just hoping that spots can open up eventually within the next few months. Dumb question but do you think that those 2023 summer start roles for full-time hires would take candidates like myself? Also when you said "very likely" what were you referring to?
Very likely meaning that yeah I think this is a soft layoff
The 2023 summer start roles were all filled with FT hiring back in the fall, and even if they post a few more on a one-off basis, you will be auto-screened out with your grad date not meeting the requirements.
I would try and land a job now even if it's not your dream job, and then maybe later next summer some spots will open up. Focus your networking on specific groups that have active analyst postings, don't just blast alums because the vast majority of banks are cutting instead of hiring. I also wouldn't email people right around the holidays as they are unlikely to respond, especially for jobs outside of IB where no one works at all until the new year. maybe make a list of active postings / people to email, and write the emails but schedule them to send on Jan 4th or so.
You mean the market is loose not tight
That's true, bright side is I got the heads up I guess. It's still hurtful that this is even happening but I hope when I interview I can play this off as a RIF. You don't think they'll actually background check if it's PIP vs RIF right?
Currently blasting emails as much as I possibly can whenever I have the free time available. I am now starting to think that given the market and low responses due to holidays I won't really have anything lined up by the time my PIP ends. Will having the gap screw me or will people be more understanding when I reinterview?
There is actually a big difference between PIP and RIF. I believe your Broker Check report explicitly lists out the reason why you left your job at the time, e.g. "Voluntary Resignation", "Terminated For Cause", etc.
In other words, if you are put on a PIP and then let go, this is likely considered "terminated for cause" and will show on your broker report, which any FINRA member bank is going to have to look through when onboarding you. Be that as it may, I do believe the vast majority of banks are in the habit of allowing people to "voluntarily resign" instead of outright firing them, so most people in your shoes do not actually end up with a "terminated for cause" on their record.
Absolutely shitty of your bank though. I would name and shame brazenly until your fingers are soar from typing toxic and defamatory statements about these d-bags online. Frankly it implies a pretty fucked-up, compliance negligent culture because going about a RIF in this way is point blank illegal, in addition to being a big league douchebag maneuver.
Shit, if it really comes down to this and they let you know you're being let go, I would even lightly imply that it's illegal to HR just to scare the shit out of them. "Hey guys, I noticed over 2/3 of the group has been put on PIPs which correspond in timing to what other banks have classified as RIFs involving severance. Not naming names, but some of the guys have indicated they've spoken with outside counsel, who informed them that this isn't legal. So FYI, I may be in contact as well if I also chose to pursue that legal avenue just to make sure everything is on the up and up here."
Don't want to distract from the purpose of the post and sorry to hear about all of this. Would be curious what firm though
This. Name and shame. I'm guessing Cantor Fitzgerald?
It's a well known MM bank that has the name being thrown around a lot, but the group itself is small so I don't want to name and shame as it will easily pop up and identify me if co-workers search for me
How long is your PIP? Did they do anything to the Associates? This could confirm your suspicions.
This does sound like a “soft layoff” as others have mentioned. Unfortunately since you’re on a PIP, you’re still expected to work which will take time away from your recruiting efforts. If you quiet quit too hard you might be let go sooner than expected so I’d be careful there.
This isn’t the end of your IB career as it’s an industry wide issue so others will get it. It’ll take hard work and patience, but this is banking and people leave all the time. Spots will open.
My group had two more junior employees, they both were pushed out. One was an associate. I don't want to give more details online but would love to chat about it via PM if you're willing to
There's so many issues at my firm but I just don't want to be left unemployed. It's nice to hear you say the last part though, helps calm the nerves haha.
If 2/3 of the people are on PIP, it’s a management issue. Bail as soon as you can. Also, lawsuit worthy in all likelihood.
Before you agree to participate in any sort of PIP, you have a right to know why you have been selected for it. As you have already noted you might have been targeted for PIP to fail it preemptively and for your employer wants to get rid of you.
Therefore, you might want to make sure that:
a) Realistically achievable
b) Matches your job description and relevant to your skills
c) Quantifiable
Many employees pass their improvement plans and make successful careers within the firm in the future but I would highly recommend getting a legal advise and start creating a paper trail should things escalate. You would want a good settlement for all the stress they are putting you through. Meanwhile, indeed try landing another job. #freelegaladviseisparadise
Agree on paper trail. Do you have a manager that you can schedule meetings with and discuss progress. They will probably bucket you as being a smartass but your goal is to buy time until you get something better or worst case - survive if you can't.
What bank do you work at? Don’t worry their HR does not prowl random forums and don’t have contacts at NASA to dox you.
As to your questions, you’re super young and just starting out, so no one will hold your unceremonious exit against you. Just be honest, and say it was mass layoffs and not a firing.
And then just do what we all did as young kids, e-mail and apply everywhere you can.
I'm really sorry to hear that this is possibly happening to anyone--let alone a large group of you and your peers.
Frankly, if true, this is cruel and unprofessional, especially if this action is being taken against anyone who has just entered the workforce. Do any of these decision-makers have children of their own? I'm thinking about all of the high-achieving students who missed out on a real college experience due to Covid, who are now stuck in high-cost New York lease obligations and may be far from home.
For most American workers, we're likely talking about "employment at will." There's probably nothing you can do about it, unless there is some serious action available under law.
A good leader would have counseled a young professional out of the firm in such a way that this is not emotionally traumatic.
Don't let this be a scarring event in your early career. Plan your exit, so that you are in control of that exit. They probably screwed up and misjudged their staffing needs.
If there is some merit to the performance issues raised, treat it as a gift and reassess what might be a better fit for you. This work is certainly not for everyone.
If, after some real soul-searching, you think this is unwarranted, chalk it up to "bad luck" and move on as quickly as you can. Sh-t happens.
In the meantime, do what is asked of you, with calmness and professionalism.
Move on, and don't look back. You and your peers have a bright future ahead of you. Keep your "eye on the ball."
Make a promise to yourself, that, when you progress to a position of leadership, you will never, never, do this to anyone else.
I agree, and I am very happy that everyone in this thread, including you, are in agreement that this is a very cruel thing to do. The whole situation has made me feel inadequate and insecure about my professional acumen, especially when I was a high performer in my previous job (I had 1 YOE prior to this IB role).
I really appreciate the kind words you said, I definitely will not allow this to ever happen to anyone if I am in a leadership position. I just want a fresh restart and build myself back up from this experience. I'll keep this threat posted on what happens obviously as I go down the line though. Hopefully I can land something quickly
Let this be a lesson that it takes most of much much longer to learn. Loyalty doesn't mean shit; crisis reveals character; every man for himself. Emotionally detach - nothing you can do. Just the nature of the industry. Keep your head up.
I had exactly this happen to me. Did most of my college online because of COVID, graduated and started at a bank only to be laid off with a good portion of my analyst class just months after starting. I actually wish they had given us a few months to find something else like OP has. It's been tough interviewing and explaining the RIF after literally starting my career 6 months ago. Really showed me no company gives a damn about you at the end of the day. I'd be lucky to get to stay in the industry, the job market is super slow for IB roles right now.
Really feel for the OP. It’s a really tough position to be in but hopefully we both find something decent and can keep learning the job.
I wanted to give an update on my situation: Unfortunately, I was laid off. I do have some time before they officially push me out of the firm.
That said, I wanted to ask what would be the best way to frame this story? Is it alright to frame this as a layoff because I was told HR wouldn't disclose my performance and would only disclose dates I started and ended. The only way they would know about PIP is through my referrals who said they won't disclose the situation.
Yes explain its an extraordinary circumstance with [2/3] of the new class laid off
deleted
For some reason I can't see your original comment but the email notification did show your comment, so I'll respond accordingly.
The U5 will show a voluntary departure. I was also given assurance it won't be disclosed by HR from HR themselves about anything about my performance. They just confirm dates and my role title at the bank.
I appreciate your thoughtful response and it was very kind of you to comment it. Thank you so much for that, and I hope that I can find something soon too.
Yes absolutely fine to frame as a layoff - actually most appropriate to do so.
Sorry to hear. Bright side is there are so many layoffs right now that no one will think this was performance related
Much appreciated, and if you were the original Associate 3 in this thread, thanks so much for helping me out this much, it truly means a lot. I'll try my best to keep this thread posted and updated on what goes on
That really sucks man. You should absolutely frame it as a layoff given so many were cut at the same time. I’m in a similar position interviewing after broad cuts at my shop in December. I’ve explained it as a RIF in interviews and folks have been understanding given how junior I am. Really tough position but I know we’ll make it through and find something. We know how to do the work, just hoping there’s some bank out there that needs analysts this year.
Real quick question that someone also asked below, were you given severance if so how much was it. I think I am about to be in your shoes
Was this truist?
Hey everyone, as promised, I wanted to give everyone here an update, as well as anyone in the future who is going through a similar situation as I am. I hope this post can serve as a resource and also as a source of consolation and hope.
I landed a new IB job after receiving notice that I would be laid off before my final day at my previous workplace. The new role is with another investment bank, but it is significantly more well known, well-resourced, actually growing in this market environment, and (best part) has actual human beings who can walk through tasks without being condescending and won't make your life miserable for the tiniest mistakes. The funny thing is that I am already getting significantly more deal exposure and modeling exposure than in my previous bank, so this PIP was actually a huge blessing for me to GTFO; I wouldn't have learned anything had I stayed there.
This place has been a tremendous improvement for my mental health too. During the months of the PIP, I had a very foggy brain, felt extremely small and incompetent, and felt a lot of pressure and anxiety. It's a huge learning lesson to go for a place that has good people and people you can actually bond with. Money is one thing, and while this job pays the same as my last one, this is a significantly better experience just on the people alone. To emphasize this point further, I would've been happy to take a material pay cut to join here.
That said, here's my general list of advice and things that I did, in case anyone in the future is reading this and potentially going through a similar situation:
I would like to express my heartfelt gratitude to everyone on this thread for providing me with invaluable assistance when I needed it the most. I cannot overstate how crucial it was for me to adopt the mindset that the situation I faced was unjust and to draw strength and confidence from it during my interviews. The guidance and support I received here undoubtedly played a significant role in my securing a new job that is superior in every aspect to my previous position. I cannot thank you all enough for your kindness. If anyone else in the future has a question or needs advice, I'll do my best to keep track of this account and respond - I'd love to pass the torch down somehow.
Really happy for you OP! Hope the new role goes well and thanks for the detailed write-up.
Great to hear it worked out for you. But seriously screw your previous firm. Reminds me of the William Blair issue with revoking a FT offer. In reality no bank cares about you.
Fantastic work man. Thanks for the update.
I just DMed you
Hi OP - just wondering did you end up receiving severance?
Hey so so sorry for responding later, I didn't receive any severance no. I wouldn't expect any severance if you are on a PIP
Bit of an update post: I am still enjoying this role significantly more, it's purely a night and day difference from my old shop.
I am looking back and seeing how stupid and ridiculous my situation was. I can now confidently say with a clear head that there were a lot of politics and issues at hand that ultimately went against me, but I am so happy I overcame that toxic environment. I am performing significantly better, got a good raise, and have good things going for me. Co-workers actually are human beings here and will help out whenever without being condescending or leaving me in the dark. You guys really helped me get to this point and I am thankful there's a good community of folks out there that are willing to help out like you all did. I can't emphasize this enough.
On that note, I am now interested in trying out for buy-side roles. I really want to leverage the good momentum I have going for me for a buy-side career while I still have the option to do so. How should I approach the layoff to headhunters? Should I even disclose it at all? I think I made a mistake by disclosing to one of them, but they seem to still be sending stuff my way. However, despite framing it as something out of my control and saying I can get a referral from people there, I am worried that the disclosure has put me in a negative light with the recruiter. Would be very happy to hear what you guys think about this, as well as my chances of landing a role within the MM PE space.
Yes disclose the layoff to HH like you did to find a new IB gig. They'll understand esp. if you mention 2/3rd of the analysts got axed
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