I’m a year away from the big 4-0. Hence, I wanted to share some wisdom gained over the years for both career and life. Like some of my previous posts, I don’t want to regurgitate things that you’ve heard a million times but instead wanted to focus on some less common advice and topics. Let’s get started….
- Persistence is the #1 quality in finance long term – Early on in your career, we can argue that a lot of different things matter: technicals, networking, social skills, intelligence, creativity, hard work etc. However, when you start getting later in your career, the people who are still around and are now MD or CFO are the ones who were persistent. As time goes on, people just drop out of the track….maybe some go to wealth management, start a business, join a family business, move to Montana…..whatever it is. People just sort of drop off the radar. The ones who keep showing up year after year and don’t quit are now the MDs and CFOs.
- You have to make a name for yourself somewhere – Early in your career, it’s probably a good idea to jump around firms. However, at some point, you have to make a name for yourself. You have to plant your flag down and work somewhere for a solid 5 years or more and accomplish something there. Yes, persistence in finance matters but there are also lots of resumes out there of VPs and EDs jumping every 3 years to six different banks. Not only is this an absolute grind but I never see these guys get the final promote. They eventually just fizzle out.
- You need someone to believe in you at your office. Unfortunately, at the end of the day, it’s not all about how hard you work. Ultimately, someone has to believe in you and give you a shot at more responsibility. Sure, if you do good work, your chances can increase, but you can have bad or insecure bosses who are not interested in growing their juniors or making opportunities for them. Ultimately, someone has to say, “Hey, we should keep that kid and make him a VP and give him some client coverage.” That’s the only way to really move up. Someone has to take a chance on you. If you work your tail off and no one is willing to give you a shot at more responsibility, you need to move on. You can’t force yourself into positions of more responsibility. It requires backing from someone else.
- You will own a house. I’m a millennial who graduated right into the great financial crisis. There were no jobs and housing prices were through the roof even after the crash. Not having a job was the trickiest. If you don’t have a job, you can’t afford a house at any price. But keep working and keep saving and you’ll get one even at today’s prices. My wife and I lived in apartments for years. Then I got a promotion, she got a promotion, two incomes and suddenly we owned a house. Get married, save, and the same will happen for you. It might not be the house of your dreams exactly where you want it and the exact size that you want it but you can get a house if you keep grinding away year after year.
- Whenever you think is the right time to have kids, subtract 5 years. After you have your first child and you get the hang of it, you will come to a realization: I could have done this earlier. Then, as you become the older dad at the playground, it dawns on you….I SHOULD have done this earlier.
- You will almost certainly have a family one day. Start acting like it. Once upon a time, young adults understood that life was about one day raising your own family. Seems like the modern idea is to stay a kid as long as possible and then suddenly become responsible at 35 or 40. Look, a family is going to happen….believe me. I know that you think it won’t or that you’ll carefully plan or that you’ll find that perfect date after 500 Tinder dates but love is a crazy thing. It will happen out of nowhere and things will move fast. Before you know it, you’ll be in a different world with different priorities. Starting thinking about that REALITY today. Maybe being a MD in Manhattan is not the best lifestyle for your family. Maybe, it’s better working corporate development in Kansas but you have to start thinking about these things even in your 20s. You don’t want to be finally making that career switch when your kid is already 12 years old and doesn’t even know your name. Also, start learning the skills that a dad needs and wants his kids to look up to. Do you want order Uber eats every night and hire someone to hang a picture? Do some growing up. Stop focusing on being a cool dude and starting focusing on being a good man who will one day be a good father.
- You will have some sort of health issue by the time that you’re in your 30s. Think about the way that you exercise even at a young age. It should be about avoiding injury. Not fun as you get older. On top of that, something will go wrong with you in your 30s. For some people, it will be extreme and for others it might be something random like irritable bowel syndrome but I feel like everyone I know has some health problem in their 30s…..realize that’s coming. People don’t like to talk about it but it’s real.
A Lot of people you know will die. When you’re young you don’t think about this but a lot of people are dead by 40 and it could be you as well. I’m talking friends, co-workers, other bankers….dead as a door nail. On top of that and most importantly, your grandparents and parents will die. As a young adult, I always wanted my parents and grandparents to be proud of my success. I would even say that it was a significant driver for my career. But have you ever considered that these people might be dead by the time that you’re finally successful? It’s not just a small chance.
Three things to take away from this. First, cherish your loved ones now. Second, think about how much time you’re spending with them in your 20s. By the time that you’re done with your 80 hour per week schedules in your 30s, they may already be dead. And third, you need to get right with yourself and be ready for a world where it will be just, you, Jesus, and your wife/kids. You might climb to the top of the career mountain and your parents and grandparents who you did this for will no longer be alive to see it.
Time is the most valuable commodity and narrows the choices in your life – of course, this seems kind of basic and I may be breaking my first comments on uncommon advice. However, I mean this in a more practical sense. When you are young, the whole world seems open to you. You can live in NYC or San Fran or London or even Singapore if wanted to. As you get older, you realize that you now have to pick. Once you have kids. you can’t just globe trot without some serious difficulty. Sure, you can wait for them to graduate, but how much time do you have left to really live anywhere after that? You start to feel this with vacations as well. My wife and I love about three different places where we would like to buy a vacation home. Technically, we could afford multiple vacation homes but time is the issue. You only have so much time to spend at any one location. And if you buy a vacation home at all, you now cut down on other places where you may want to visit. You may not have experienced it yet, but I often get a dreaded feeling at the end of a vacation now where I really like the place but I know that I’ll never come there again….not because it wasn’t great but I likely just won’t have the time.
Or from a career perspective, time is what ultimately limits you.. I could jump to another industry with enough networking etc but there just isn’t enough time to get to the same spot as I am now in my current industry. Decisions become not about whether you can do it but whether you have enough time left to do them,
10. Figure out the big picture as early as you can. Life isn’t just about planning. It’s even more important to know what to plan. I think you can easily find yourself at 40 realizing that you achieved what you wanted to achieve but now that you know more, you’ve focused on and achieved the wrong things. Whether it is finding Jesus or just figuring out things like where you want to live and how do you see your life with a significant other and kids, the earlier you figure it out the better. Otherwise, you may spend a lot of time “accomplishing” goals which in hindsight were not that wise or important at all in the bigger picture. We often think about regret in terms of not doing the things we should have done to achieve our goals but when you realize that you regret your goals, it’s even worse. Having good goals that are never fully achieved is in my opinion better than bad goals successfully mastered.
I hope this list serves you well and on the second to last topic, I will be taking an extended hiatus from WSO after this post. In regards to time, I’m trying to maximize what I have and am getting off all social media. While I don’t do much already, even 15 to 20 minutes here or there is too much of a waste. Perhaps, I’ll drop in again in the future. Thanks for all the fish!
got me crying in the club on this beautiful Friday
A real gem of a post among all of the shit that has been churned out recently. Still clinging to my mid-30s, but can identify with a lot of this. Great stuff.
"Having good goals that are never fully achieved is in my opinion better than bad goals successfully mastered."
Poetry
Bueno
6 hits hard as someone whose no.1 life goal is fatherhood.
It’s been a while since I’ve dated and I hope to get back up on that saddle with grad school around the corner for me. Really hoping a relationship organically manifests itself during my time there.
Appreciate you sharing game, man. We need more people who have been around the block sharing advice here.
I think you’ll make a great father lesbiangirlscout
This is gold, thanks so much!
I just turned 40, and I can relate to everything on this post. Truly well written!
Awesome work!
Serious question:
I’m in my late 20s and have never been in a relationship. My family is pressuring me to find someone soon, while my married friends warn that rushing can lead to regret. I’ve seen this firsthand in friends who got married in the last year or so, and are seeing the challenges of this (likely around closing doors they didn't want to close).
I've been getting mixed messages (date a ton and don’t rush vs. try to find your person now) have me questioning what I want and worrying I’m already late, especially as more people around me start families.
Is this something you've seen in others? How did you know that you were OK with closing the doors that you did? It's just remarkable seeing people who are getting things done early be unhappy, while I am already starting to feel I've done things too late.
I would say the answer is when you find someone that is special, rush in. No reason to date someone for five years when you were crazy about them in the first two years.
Personally, how I knew that my wife was the one was that we never stayed mad at each other. In the almost 20 years of knowing each other, we have not been mad at each other more than 12 hours. Now, we've had some drag out fights but we always come back together in no time.
Would also note that you don't need to search the globe for perfection. I read a post on here just a few weeks ago of a guy who listed like six characteristics of this one girl that were great except for one. And he was wondering whether he should stay with her. Have heard many similar stories from the younger generation scouring Tinder until you find the perfect match.
Back to my earlier commment, my wife is not perfect. And more importantly, I am an even less perfect person for her. However, what is important is that we love each other, have the same vision for our lives together, and can't stay mad at each other even if we tried our hardest. That's all the characteristics you need.
You need to meet someone soon. Hit 30 without ever having had a girlfriend makes you damaged goods. People are going to wonder what your problem is.
I know this was a pretty well thought out post, but the only thing I seem to get from this is that time is running out. I feel slightly lost and am unsure where the uplifting reaction comes from other repliers
others should relate that after a few years in IB/PE you start to feel very behind in many aspects of life. Money is stacked up yet you’ve fallen well behind in health, relationships, friends, family, life experiences. You go from having infinite time (student) and you never truly get over that freedom - you hope to one day reclaim it - you think that I’ll lock in this year because it’s the right thing to do… but next year… next year I’ll do the things I want
It turns out untrue as life doesn’t slow down or get less serious. You go from establishing your career to the next stage which is trying to make it to VP/DMD/partner and having a hope at achieving all the material things you want for yourself. Throw kids/marriage in the mix and suddenly you have to start future planning very quickly like a responsible and typical adult
OP I think it is is all great advice and a good reality check - but you surely must have experienced this dilemma in your 20s. Is there anything you regret or would have done differently? Did you end up achieving everything you wanted by age 30/35/40?
You are right that some of this seems basic i.e time is running out. As a young man, I also understood that time is running out. However, what I think isn't appreciated and what I'm trying to say here is that running out of time transforms from a general concept to a real limitation on your decisions very quickly. You can't just jump into tech at 40 and expect to be the CEO of a huge company. It's much harder to find a great girl to marry when you're 38 for example rather than 28. Time stops being conceptual and instead becomes very real and shapes your choices.
I think this sentence of yours below pretty much sums up a common view of most young people:
Oh after I've achieved being VP/MD and I get married, THEN I have to start quickly planning and becoming a responsible adult. That's usually how the world is framed to young adults these days.
The advice that I'm giving is that this is way too late in the game to figure things out. You need to start planning and thinking about the being a responsible adult, not when you're 35 but start laying down the groundwork when you're even a first year analyst and thinking about the future as an adult with a high likelihood of a wife and kids. You don't need to have everything figured out at 23 (I surely didn't), but you need to start considering the bigger picture.
TLDR: You should wake up every morning and think of yourself as an adult planning for the future, not as a kid extending the fun times in college until "reality" hits at 35.
I’m glad you replied - thank you very much
Really wonderful write up, thank you.
Thx for sharing unc.
Thanks for sharing, @NoEquityResearch this is incredibly well-written.
I've read many of your posts over the years and I'm pretty sure we've gone back and forth on a handful of topics.
I think that you hit a few points that may not resonate with some of the younger crowd. If there are younger readers who adamantly disagree with some of these points (getting married, starting a family, buying a home), I would just encourage you to spend a few minutes contemplating a different perspective. Is it possible, that somehow, in the not so distant future, you do ultimately end up getting married, wanting kids, etc.?
I say this as someone who formerly held this same stance (at 26, even in a long term relationship, I swore I would never get married). Oh, how wrong I was. I am shocked by how different my life was at 26 vs. 30. It was night and day. Life really does change that fast. For context, that same 4 years is the entire length of college. So if you contextualize it like that, it should stand as no surprise that life can change a great deal in a short duration.
Thanks @Deal Team Six The post has gotten a few MS and negative comments below but maybe those are the folks that needed to read it the most rather than the 80+ bananas. At 20 years old, I might have been one of the kids throwing MS as well!
Have enjoyed your commentary as well over the years! Will be back at some point in the future.
Your post makes me want to kill myself
Shit post
Great post man. I was adamant at 25 that I would get married early 30s or later but here I am in my late 20s married to an amazing woman. I wouldn't change it for the world. Your point on fatherhood has been echoed by many others that they should have done it earlier. Planning to have kids in a year or two, I do not want to be the 40yr old dad with a 3yr old at the park
The health issue thing -- I disagree on your fatalistic viewpoint. You are correct that it's a reality for many, but it's a preventable reality for the majority. Eat well, supplement well, get ~7.5hrs of sleep daily, and work out 4x per week. And maintain close relationships with family / friends. Lower stress in your life. Do these things and ~80% of folks will be fine for the next few decades.
Everything else is great though. I also like your committment to eliminate social media. I have eliminated everything (facebook, snapchat, etc) except for WSO and LinkedIn for obvious reasons (though I don't spend time on LinkedIn anymore) just to scratch the slight itch. Would much rather spend time with my family / friends or read a good book / workout / etc
% pop dementia by age 80?
% pop presboteria by age 60?
% of Olympic Gold Medalists over age 30, 40, 50?
Now that being said, eat, exercise, and think "correctly" to mitigate as best you can.
This resonates as someone who took multiple sabbaticals in my mid twenties knowing that this somewhat conventional path likely will await in my 30s. In short, I used my money from IB to have some adventures that someone more talented than me could easily write novels about. Now I’m back to the corporate highway in my 30s as I probably subconsciously needed.
I do wonder from time to time if I will constantly be pinching myself, wondering if my 20s were the highlight of my life only to have sold out later.
Had I spent my entire 20s behind a cube, I wonder what my self-identity would be. Like David Foster Wallace’s proverbial question.. “does a fish know it’s in water?”
To money buying that precious time back… and the examined life!
The adventures will just be different. I can't tell you how amazing it feels to come home from a day of work and have your son there waiting for you like Superman just walked through the door. I've done a decent bit of travel and I wouldn't trade the sight of a single cathedral or waterfall or fun night out for moments like those. It's one of those things that you can imagine as a single guy and get about 70% right, but how it feels in your heart in that moment is something miraculous. So, don't worry, the adventures are not behind you, they'll just be different from here.
Side note. One of my favorite quotes by G.K. Chesterton, "The most extraordinary thing in the world is an ordinary man and an ordinary woman and their ordinary children.”
What many consider a conventional path is in of itself a magical and magnificent thing of its own. That's one reason that so many have gone down this path for literally thousands of years.
Bro has me tearing up in the Off topic section of WSO
Very insightful post. Really interested in hearing a bit more of your thoughts on #2 and 3. Currently at a Top 3 bank in a coverage group. However, have limited senior support and opportunity to take on more responsibility and gain client coverage. Group is very toxic, bad culture and senior leadership is poor.
Is it worth it going back to a less well known platform where I have a ton of senior support, opportunity to take on client coverage, be responsible for a sub-sector within a coverage area and have a clear path to MD? Prestige and brand name are lower but it’s a growing platform with a lot of investment. Compensation is top of market as well.
my 2 cents is yes to the latter, VP in banking here, made one meaningful move in my career and it's definitely one of the best things i've done. started at a top 5 BB, and while i think it is a great if not ideal place to start (top BB / EB) think as you become more senior and things like politics / relationships start to trump junior / technical skillsets, who you work with and who vouches for you at the end of the day > bank name. would love to hear other thoughts but better holistically (comp, lifestyle, career longevity, etc.)
Thank you for this. I have realized that relationships and who you are aligned with matter a lot more at this level (currently a senior VP looking at Director promotion this year).
What kind of bank did you move to from the BB you were at?
Love the post. As someone in the same age as you are and hitting the big 4-0 soon…it’s quite the realization that many of the people I knew growing up are gone. No question the chronic health issue comes up during friends meeting each other.
For context as well - even if you’re not where you are at in life, be responsible as plan ahead. For those who are struggling with life and health, it does get better once things settle down a bit. I spent my 20s and 30s dealing with a lot of financial and health issues, and coming into towards the end of my 30s - I have breathing room to map out the rest.
Searching and finding someone to settle will take time. I have had some relationships fall through the cracks, but I’m still looking. I also have to plan finding my own place once I do find that someone to marry and start a family. I’m fortunate to get help from family.
Thank you for taking the time to put these thoughts on paper
Great post. As a 39 year old, I totally agree with this post and appreciate your insights. I switched out of finance and became a radiologist and can say these points apply to the medical field as well. Health issues often arise in your 30s.
I would also add that you may after thoughtful consideration decide not to have children and that is okay! Most of my wife and my friends are having kids, and we feel more confident than ever in our choice. Growing up as a child, your friends' parents had children by definition. You have much less societal exposure to childless adults. Life is still good.
Some people seek greater purpose through money, religion, having children, etc. You may find that these are methods of denying one's own mortality (Ernest Becker).
How was medical school after banking for you?
The first two years of med school were mainly in the classroom, which I truly enjoyed. The second two years were mainly clinicals, which were a bit of a mixed bag. There were many unique real life exposures that gave real perspective, but these experiences were in the context of undue competition and politics that are inescapable in many industries. Admittedly, I think some of these pressures were/are self-induced by ambitious young individuals. I only worked briefly as a consulting actuary, so I never experienced firsthand the intense banking/trading lifestyle.
I don't think most people with kids are thinking of it that way. My wife just wanted to have kids as most women do. We had plenty of meaning in our life beforehand as well. And if anything, kids have made me much much more aware of my mortality. If I get run over by a bus tomorrow or sick or anything, I need to make sure that they're taken care of. And I need to think about scenarios where that happens earlier than expected. Never had those kinds of thoughts beforehand.
Totally agree - and I in no way meant to diminish your life choices with sarcasm or anything like that. I think that a mature person having kids is truly a generous decision for mankind, and I agree that planning 5 years ahead is wise. I only meant to say that a modern day traditional American life (college, career, marriage, kids) is fairly normative and that there are many reasonable life routes to find contentment in an uncaring universe in which man's search for meaning is absurd (Camus).
This resonates 100%, thanks OP and commenters for sharing your thoughts.
1 thru 3 is so true— if you luck into finding senior mgmt who believes in you, maximize that situation, but also make sure there’s a promo path and you’re not just getting played by a seemingly nice manager with no intention of promoting you. If you have both a supportive manager and a promo path up to MD, then is the time to plant the flag, as OP says. Ideally you can time this with a life stage where you need some stability anyway (e.g. starting family, recovering from health issue, repaying MBA debt) so you don’t have fomo / distraction from other opportunities. But it rarely works out so neatly.
4 thru 6– Your mileage may vary on what you want in your private life, but if you might want kids at some point, society tends to be more forgiving on an analyst/associate needing time off to care for kids than someone more senior.
7 thru 9– Yes this is all spot on, too. If we are lucky, we have 4-5 decades enjoying/facing up to the lives we’ve built, vs. only 2-3 decades actually grinding and building, so it pays to play the long game and not be myopic about things.
I turned 30 and 3 months later got diagnosed with IBS...
Neque rem aliquid magnam quam tenetur labore voluptate. Dignissimos quo qui aut tempore dolore est enim. Et earum corporis facilis. Exercitationem dignissimos non fuga nulla. Blanditiis enim quae accusantium aperiam dignissimos cumque nihil ad. Cum expedita et assumenda occaecati ad voluptatem sunt. Aspernatur voluptas laudantium totam non autem aut sint.
Neque voluptas consequuntur incidunt impedit deleniti. Dolores ipsam dolorem facere consequatur reiciendis id. Quia fugiat eius omnis fugit facere vel.
Et tempore sequi numquam et omnis temporibus accusantium. Qui quia excepturi explicabo sint dolores aut aut. Sunt distinctio voluptatum sint saepe laboriosam.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Et pariatur molestias ducimus ducimus magni in. Voluptatibus et ut ducimus minus aperiam ad. Ducimus non et maxime error velit nihil.
Id explicabo enim non eum impedit nobis nemo. Blanditiis aliquid omnis consequatur et alias.
Necessitatibus explicabo at hic. Omnis et debitis qui aut in.