I'm done, I've finally had it. I hate everything about the direction the automotive manufacturing industry is heading in, and I want no part in anything they manufacture. For the reasons outlined below, I am going to make it a personal mission statement to never purchase a car manufactured after 2015. The only, and I do mean only, exception would be sports / race cars (e.g., GT3RS / Turbo S). For context, 2015 is an arbitrary placeholder that is subject to change, but is a rough approximation of when things went from bad to worse. My reasons are (in no particular order) listed below:
1. Virtually every single new car is overly-engineered, and thus, over-priced
I don't have any appreciation for carplay, 360 degree sensors, or any of the other "amenities" new cars are packing. All of the much needed tech has been packed into cars as old as 2009, such as an aux cord and a backup cam. Modern technology is actually distracting drivers as opposed to increasing safety. Next time you think about why a brand new modern car has more or less doubled in cost, remmeber that it comes down to one primary driver, superfluous technology. Average new vehicle prices have gone up ~60% (source) since 2012. Do you feel that modern vehicles on the road have increased in quality 60%? Fuck no you don't, unless you have no concept of money and are one of those people that thinks the iPhone 13 Pro was a good buy because you look marginally better in your Instagram photos. Spoiler alert, Becky still wont sleep with you despite the improve resolution on your latest Mykonos pic, and you're still going to total your new car if you text and drive. You want to talk about technological innovation that would actually matter? Two minor pieces of tech would go an extremely long way: 1. halting texting capabilities for the driver's phone in the vehicle 2. Breathalyzer feature every time you start a car. This is how you avoid accidents. Oh, you don't want those in your car? Yeah, neither do I, which is why there isn't any new tech that should be added as of now. But don't push some bureaucratic BS my way about how cars are safer than ever before thanks to the latest OS update that now tells you anytime the car in front of you slows down by 3+ mph per second.
Large auto OEMs preach that cars are safer than ever, but this is certainly not supported by data, at least in the US. Auto accidents and deaths have stayed more or less the same as they have since '08 (source: IIHS). Sure, there has been some fluctuation YoY, and population has gone up, but more or less, things have stayed the same.
2. Get that Tesla / EV shit out of here
Every single person that thinks they're unique because they're fiscally conservative and socially liberal drives a tesla. I hate Tesla as much as college students love typing "DB is NOT a BB xD". NYC, LA, CHI, these cities are flooded with Teslas. Spoiler alert, Teslas are about as cool as the OG Priuses. Further, Teslas are mostly dogshit, with worse reliability and a higher price tag. They were rated the LEAST reliable auto manufacturer (Source: Business Insider). You have to make impressively unreliable cars to get surpassed by Range Rover. I mean you would almost thinking they were writing bad code to get a lower score than RR.
Worse still, people driving Teslas claim to be auto enthusiasts, thinking that their gravitation toward the brand makes them knowledgeable on cars and people who have a passion for the auto industry. Get the fuck out of here. Before your Tesla, odds are you couldn't tell the difference between a Bentayga and a XC90, and couldn't tell me the difference between HP and Torque. Your fully EV cars are what are killing the cars all auto enthusiasts love. One of the best things about America is the passion for autos. From the lust for industry-leading engineering coming from Porsche year after year, to the adoration of pure speed / power / danger of the SRT SCAT pack Charger, it is one thing that unites us all. From the hillbilly in Arkansas dreaming of a older camaro, to the refined HF PM who cant wait to get his hands on the latest GT2RS to maximize track times and smoke his friends, loving ICE vehicles is in our American DNA. Pretty sure one of the founding fathers was going to add a line in the constitution about the right to ALWAYS own V8 - V12 engines, and was trying to ban turbos and I-4s.
More importantly, EVs are tank the number of cars that have any personality. EVs are the equivalent of HL Investment Bankers, they are dry and boring as fuck. Spend one hour at a happy hour with them and you are ready to leave finance for good. One of the best sounds in the entire world is the sound of an NA V8 / V10 / V12. It is truly up there with the sound of your Chase alert saying the bonus has hit your account, the old school noise of ringing a bell when you bought your first car, or the first time you made a girl climax. EVs are silent, just like KBG spies, the fans at a WNBA game, and socialists on the trading floor. Like all evil things, they move without any indication, and are not to be trusted.
In all seriousness, EVs are leading toward the evaporation of ICE vehicles, as smaller, more fuel efficient engines and turbos are growing day by day. Dont get me wrong, the turbo spool noise is awesome, but doesn't hold a candle to NA engines. I am not naïve, I realize that US and other government bodies are forcing auto manufacturer's hands on downsizing engines, but that doesn't mean I have to buy something I don't support.
3. SUVs are the bane of my existence
Everyone and their brother is hyped about getting an SUV. When asked, "Hey man, why are you so excited about buying an SUV", they all say the same shit, "more sPaCe". My brother in Christ, you are a single dude and or married with no kids / one kid, what the heck are you hauling? You doing any big road trips soon? No. You that guy who helps all his or her friends move? No. You ski a lot and bring all the boys with you 10+ times a year? No. SUV sales have gone up nearly 5x in the US since '10 (source: IEA), and I cant stand it. Sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but you dont need that much space. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why people with no kids would ever get an SUV, unless they use it for work. Even if that were the case, why not get a pickup?
4. Cars have been selling for over MSRP since the pandemic began
Again, I realize up front that this is not a fault of OEMs, but of scumbag dealerships and dealership-friendly legislation in the US, but again, I simply do not care. I am not buying a car for over MSRP because I am not completely braindead. This is almost as dumb as the people paying 200k over asking on a 1.0 mm home in the middle on Nebraska. People cannot possibly comprehend that once the market corrects they will be out material dollars because they had to have the latest X3 or the new bronco. If people are paying over MSRP on collector cars that they will keep as garage queens, I feel you, I really do. But if you are telling yourself paying over MSRP for your F-150 that you will hold for 3-5 years, you must have been a liberal arts major at a HYP school.
5. Modern cars are not special anymore
Advancements in daily driver cars (e.g., all non-race / sports cars) happen in basically two areas; added tech and increased fuel efficiency. These are two areas I personally haven't cared about in a long time, as again, advancements of any material significance really stopped around '15.
To all my modern car buyers out there, aside from keeping up with the other VPs / MDs at your fund / firm, what is your rationale here?
Adding to what you said.
- Modern cars streaming data to OEMs. I'd rather go back to Facebook
- This subscription feature bullshit manufacturers are trying to make happen. Like why tf would I pay big $ to buy your car AND 15 bucks a month for heated seats.
Couldn't agree more, BMWs heated seat subscriptions tests in Korea are a testament to how little they care about their customers
As far as SUVs go - what about the Porsche Cayenne Turbo GT? 0-60 in 2.8 sec and 7:38 Nordschleife lap. Pretty sick.
I think there are some extremely cool SUVs, and if I were an enthusiast with too much money I would certainly look at the Cayenne Turbo GT as a daily. There is nothing wrong with SUVs I think I was a bit too harsh, the main point I was trying to make is it bums he out how every auto manufacturer is allocating so much time toward SUVs because the demand is there. I was trying to say the demand shouldnt be there because people seek something they dont need / get no benefit from. Bit of a rant that was poorly worded on my part
Dream car, that or an Audi RS Q8 feel like it innocuously looks better than a Urus.
I agree with you, but where I am from they call the RS Q8 a Poorus (poor man's Urus) lol
Toyota 4Runner is the last true SUV ;)
I think you meant to say FJZ80 Landcruiser.
I own a Porsche and an EV. Somewhat agree with your post. The sound of the Porsche when I turn it on in the morning is like the smell of fresh coffee beans. Its a beautiful noise. In comparison, half the time I forget to turn off the EV when I try and lock the car because theres no noise.
I bought the EV for the wife and its been okay and makes slinging the little ones around town a bit easier. When I bought the EV, I actually met the GM of that dealership and asked him about the ridiculous prices. He said they won't go down anytime soon because dealers are no longer trying to keep excess inventory in stock. Manufacturers are only really producing online orders plus a small % increase. This is similar to the housing market when builders overbuilt houses and those days are gone now. Instead the new model is to build when its ordered. Dont know if an oversupply of vehicles will have anytime soon.
I think the reality is that most people will only somewhat agree with my post as I wrote it in a fairly polarizing way.
The EV hate is mostly misdirected toward the fact that US / other first world nations are displaying unjust (in my mind at least) hatred toward ICEs. the reality is that China and India account for the lions share of pollution, with the next largest contributors being CEOs / high net worth individuals who jet around the world on a whim. I'm not even trying to blame China / India / CEOs / HNW individuals, more to just point how comical it is that average Joe citizens in the US are being restricted in what they can buy. Now you even have to pay a gas guzzler tax, like get out of here. Im sure if politicians stopped flying that would reduce the US's carbon footprint 10x over this push for HEV / EVs.
I just want auto OEMs to go back to making small / moderately sized cars with ridiculously large engines. The early 00s and 2010s were when auto manufacturers were just throwing massive engines in everything and I dont think I heard anyone but environmentalists complaining. How times have changed... smh
I also heard about the "new business model" for buying cars, and I doubt it will work/last. Firstly, manufacturers and dealers have little control over the used car market; if more sellers than buyers, car prices will decrease and vice versa. If used cars are better value for consumers, then new cars will receive less interest, which is where incentives, mark downs and negotiations come into play.
May not seem like it, but many car purchases are impulsive. If people have to wait weeks for new cars, basic psychology tells us many will inevitably delay/cancel transactions.
Lastly, I feel that mass producing cars provides economies of scale and efficiency. Dealerships have huge lots that cost a lot of money to not have cars on them.
I'm sure some industry changes will be permanent, but as humans, we get caught up in FOMO. This is not dissimilar to 03'-07', when everyone thought real estate prices would never come down (boy were they wrong!). Too much liquidity in the economy right now, and when the going gets tough (i.e. interest rate shock/recession), the auto industry is extremely sensitive. Since most car purchases are financed, my prediction is that there will be a tsunami of repossessed cars at some point, leading to a glut. Think about it, if people walk away from their homes because they're underwater or can't afford, the stakes are far lower to walk away from a depreciating asset such as a car.
Love you and your post. I was too harsh on Tesla and actually love a lot of their features. However, I am frustrated by the amount of folks who get them and suddenly develop a holier than thou attitude or flex their 0-60 times on us ICE owners. Teslas as a product are extremely cool, but the overhype / adoration from people who do not appreciate them for the right reasons rubs me the wrong way.
You're an engineer who likes a Tesla because of the electromechanical capabilities? I respect the hell out of that. Teslas in many ways created the EV market when all other companies threw in the towel, unable to make a profitable vehicle. They are absurdly fast, and when they iron out some of the technical issues, they will likely be some of the best vehicles on the road. Teslas are arguably one of the most innovative products developed within the past two decades. There are a million valid reasons to like and appreciate them, which I am fine with.
I just get agitated by the people with no car knowledge who try to pass themselves off as enthusiasts bc they bought a Model 3 and then smugly remind me that their car is not only faster but more environmentally friendly than my own.
Model 3 and Model Y owner...but don't worry, I don't feel attacked. :-) The Model 3 build quality is admittedly poor, but I was never and likely will never be a car enthusiast (unlike my 5yo son who will talk or play cars for hours on end if he could)... I haven't driven many fast cars, but the handling and speed of even my long range teslas makes them a lot of fun. either way, yes there are likely many annoying tesla owners out there lol.
I wonder if it's even possible to ever find an impartial research analysis on environmental impact of ICE vs EVs when there are such heavy special interests involved :-)
What's your favorite sports car available for sub-$100K?
I am obsessed with the '12 V10 R8 because of 8,700 redline. The logical part of my brain is screaming some 911 variant (Carrera 4s?) , and the passionate part is saying E30 / E46 / E92.
2012 R8 V10 would be sick. Pretty good value too. I can't imagine them getting much cheaper even with a lot more than 15-25k miles.
You can get older 911s with lower mileage that hold value fairly well. I bought a 991 996 Turbo with 20k miles for $50k at the end of 2020. It's worth quite a bit more now (as are all cars), but even if there hadn't been secular appreciation, this car is still set to increase. Also, as an early 2000s supercar, it's loud, very mechanical, and very connected to the road.
In summary, old 911s are the way to go. Very reliable cars as well (compared to other Germans).
Hard to look past the Mercedes 190E 2.3-16 amongst the classics mentioned above. Cosworth engine, revs like anything. Personally driven by Ayrton Senna and described by Martin Brundle as "having one of the best chassis ever fitted to a four-door saloon". Amazing car and affordable, although parts are becoming more rare.
Except didn't Brundle say on TopGear that he didn't say that about the 190? Don't get me wrong, a 190e Evo 2.5 is the defacto adversary to my dream E30 M3 Evo. And yes, you british folk can toss in your 'Cossies', and credit where credit's due. But the 190 was also a Cosworth product.
I don’t understand the SUV craze in North America - they’re fucking huge. My wife and I are in the market for a car and looked at a Jeep and left thinking ‘who actually uses this car’ (not to mention it’s priced nearly as much as a Mercedes).
Prices and supply are out of whack right now - we’ll probably just get a Toyota or Honda that has good resale value rather than overpaying for a luxury car in this market.
You forgot the most important thing! The end of a manual transmission!
Millennials these days will never know the fallacy of granny shifting not double clutching like they should.
This is a great call out, totally forgot about it. It does seem as though some sports cars are sticking to their guns and continuing to pump out manual trans options. IIRC the Supra is bringing back the manual trans for '23, but I could be wrong
My cousin is deep in the racing game. Motor trend did a piece on his build.
Anyways, I watched him race at a track event. There was a Hellcat Challenger there that appeared to be a week from the showroom. All the driver did was slam the gas every green light and the car would modulate the wheel spin, shifting, etc. it consistently ran 9.95-10.05 for the quarter mile. Fast. But almost zero driver ability. Guy looked to be 25 or so.
Heck. It may have been one of the associates from WSO blowing a bonus check.
Fantastic Dominic Torretto reference
Honestly I do not care about cars very much but love the rant & how passionate you are about shitting on EVs lol. Great post
Personally I drive a Jetta and I'm quite happy with it, see at least another 5-7yrs worth of juice left in this. I used to think about getting a Tesla but just realized it was the ultimate beta-boy car. Not sure what the next car will be, perhaps an Audi? Dunno if you have any recs in that price range
Appreciate it, I follow the auto industry closely and its probably the industry I am most passionate about.
I wrote out a brief summary on what I would look for below, but better than my guidance is my approach to buying cars. What I would recommend is the following:
1. Establish what kind of car you want. Sedan, coupe, wagon, maybe spluge and get a vert for fun if you live somewhere warm? Narrow it down to one design type first.
2. Do some internet research on what exists based on your budget based on KBB values, not on current market prices. Look at a broad array of brands. You would be shocked at how nice some of the Genesis / Lexus models are, basically on par with some of the mid tier luxury vehicles. If you really want say an Audi, thats cool too, move on to step three. If you are indifferent on brand, look at top performing vehicles based on design type. Look over the course of a few years, just basic searches such as "best sedans in 2017" should give you a good idea of what to look for.
3. If you are into the best bang for your buck, you can make a spreadsheet based on key criteria. Do you care about safety, comfort, and fuel economy? Then create a ranking system and assign values to each. This will help you optimize the best purchase based on a myriad of factors. For me, I usually know what I want quickly and chase after 2-3 models.
4. Comb through all key car buying sites. Autotrader, Truecar, etc. They all have different listings based on which dealerships use which platform. Autotrader is awesome because you can personally list cars on there. I sold a 5-series in PERFECT condition with 20k miles on there for way under KBB value because I needed it gone asap and still got literally 2x what dealerships would offer me. Dealerships are, after all, typically schumbags. Both parties made out like bandits.
5. BE patient.
This is maybe the most important step. Every time I buy a car it usually takes me about 6-12 months to find the right one. However, due to patience, I am able to purchase the vehicle of my choice in the right spec, at what is usually a 20% discount relative to the average market price. Typically I will search across the US though, and look for the best price anywhere. I typically dont purchase outside of a 200 mile range for a number of reasons, but I usually start with the scope as wide as possible. This can be handy as you can use competitor data points (even out of state) when discussing price. They may not accept them, but it is usually worth a shot.
With respect to recs, I think you can go one of two routes:
1. Used, but fairly new cars
If you want to step up your game with an Audi or something comparable, I would recommend looking at Mercedes. If I were you, I would wait until the used car price market settles and look at a gently used 2-3 year old E-class, ideally something you can get an extended warranty on. I had an E-350 back in the day and my God it was the smoothest, most luxurious, comfortable car I have ever owned. You felt like you were floating along but still had enough HP to hit the gas and feel the engine kick in a fun and enjoyable way. Without incriminating myself too much, lets just say I know for a fact you could hit 130 in those cars without your passenger having any idea how fast you were going. Audi does beat Merc in terms of infotainment but in terms of pure comfort and driving experience I would recommend looking into Mercedes. As a general rule of thumb I would say avoid the CLA / C class, as I make it a rule of thumb to never buy the lowest tier of a luxury car brand. Those are typically designed for people who want to say they own a Mercedes and are much less concerned about performance / comfort / experience.
2. Gently Used Older Models (the whole thesis of my post haha, '10-'16)
If you are ok with eating maintenance repair costs, I would strongly recommend an older Mercedes, like a 2012-2015 (also look into E class or maybe S class if you are looking to splurge). My gf states the E-350 was her favorite of all my cars Ive owned (ive had 4 since weve been dating, all Audi / BMW / Mercedes). You can find a used one for $20-25k with low miles if you are patient. This leads into my biggest belief which is that patience is key.
Awesome post, will definitely keep this stuff in mind for the next car
I generally agree with this, but my MB dealer always gives me a CLA 45 as a loaner. It’s a seriously fun car and rides on rails. It kind of reminds me of my wife’s old Mini S which drove like a go-cart. I agree on your E class comments. I have an E63 wagon (kids, dogs, etc)…so much fun.
Everyone should own an old Porsche 911. Good value at purchase, fast, reliable, and appreciating over time.
This is a good example of the second law of thermodynamics: over time most things go to shit. The video game industry has been dog shit since 1994.
Can you expand on this? Do you means with regards to marginal improvement y-o-y?
Doom
The essence of the fun of video games is “hand eye coordination” - I.e. quick reaction to on screen stimulus as a baseline combined with strategic thinking or other elements as an additional layer. It’s what separates a video game from a board game or movie. It is the core element of “gameplay”. The video game industry since the early 90s completely stop focusing on, caring for, and innovating around gameplay. Instead they lost their minds and focus only on graphics, story, and making games take as long a time to play as possible. A huge part of the problem was the move to 3D graphics. That made games exponentially more expensive to make resulting in more diluted created teams (like big Hollywood) but also had a huge gameplay impact as very often games were handcuffed by attempting realistic character animation (I.e. every game became “prince of Persia”). The game buying audience minds and tastes have been completely perverted, the economics of the industry completely warped.
The SUV point is kind of strange. There are those of us that are tall with disproportionately long legs that have trouble fitting into some small sports car. Been there, tried that, was uncomfortable as hell. I'll stick with my nice big SUV. Hell I'll buy an Escalade or Yukon too.
Are you 6' 4" or above? If so that is a very valid point.
For context, I am 6' 1" and can fit in almost every coupe Ive been in, without trouble. I can sit in my personal vehicle with a helmet on for track days, which adds roughly 2 inches.
Yeah LOL 6'4. Blessing in some aspects, curse in others. My legs (the upper half) are disproportionately long so SUVs are what I find comfortable because my knee isn't driven right into the steering wheel. Overall much prefer larger cars, I'd rather drive a G-Wagon than a 911 LOL. To each their own.
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Today in California they asked people with EV's to not charge their cars because of the heat wave coming through in the next week. What's funny is this is just days after they announce that everyone is going to have to own an EV in CA by 2035. Mass retardation. But the same tree huggers that think they're saving the earth by whipping an EV are the same dumbasses that thought they were morally superior for getting non-aspirating experimental mRNA vaccines and wanting to eradicate cops. Such is life nowadays. Enjoyed your rant as it shows I obviously don't know shit about fuck regarding cars. I like my old Camry though
Yes, the government recommending not to change EV's for a few hours during a heat wave means that we should just go back to driving around gas guzzlers. Post-Trump "culture wars" conservatives cannot understand nuance, every political issue is either black or white to them.
Few hours? There's going to be a heat wave for the next week. I know you can read, right? I also would inform you that fuel emissions have gotten significantly cleaner over the years. Not every car is a "gas-guzzler" but ok GeorgeSorosFinanceMaster. Not a Trumper but I do have the ability to think critically, thanks. Every political issue is not black/white. The world is complicated, no shit. Lightbulb, wow. I'm all for clean energy when we actually have the tech. Actually - there's quite a bit of issues I'm liberal on like healthcare, energy, infrastructure, internet for all, clean water for all, education, criminal justice reform in some aspects; I could probably go on. But please, spew platitudes, it doesn't bother me. Have a great weekend.
Just wow.
Agree. What the hell does a Honda Accord need military lidar systems for? Is it going to war?
But on the positive: I'll add that some formerly considered "lower-mid tier" sports cars have supercar level specs these days. Camaro ZL1 $65k will go 200mph, magnetic dampers, sway bars, 6piston brakes & huge rotors, supercharger. The new Supras, the new 400Z, everything has at least 400hp these days with killer suspension & brakes.
I think this is a great counterpoint. Not everything coming out of modern auto OEMs is bad, and some new models are objectively better than previous generations. There are those at these massive corporations with an ear to the ground listening the enthusiast frustrations, which is why we are seeing some positive changes. The new Supras, 400z, and the Camaro ZL1 are three models Im hyped for, despite realizing it makes me sound like a complete hypocrite.
I went a little overboard in my original post in an attempt to make it a black and white situation, when in reality, like all of life, describing the modern auto OEM strategy as varying shades of grey would be far more accurate.
I am certainly envious of the amount of modern sports cars with bigger brake packages based on the number of pistons or materials (e.g., stock ceramics becoming more common on high end cars)
OP's got the right idea. That's why I like older cars so much; from the Silver Cloud to the Testarossa, nothing compares to the experience of automotive excellence that comes from being behind the wheel of a fantastic, well-engineered, driver-friendly machine like an analog auto. Nothing to take your mind away from the pleasures of driving. Absolutely one of a kind.
I couldn't have said it myself. You sound like someone that actually understands and appreciates the driving experience. Hope you have many good trips planned in the future.
Thank you for your response. As you can probably tell, the issue at hand is one that holds deep importance to me as an early twenty-something in the 21st century. I've had the same immense respect for driving culture since I was a young boy, back when my dream car was a Bentley Arnage T. (Asset depreciation can be a beautiful thing for some.) Since then, I've gained love for supercars and luxury cars dating from before the turn of the Millennium (the gran turismi of the 50s and 60s -- e.g. Ferrari 250 GT, Lamborghini 400 GTV, Mercedes 300SL Gullwing -- are particularly fascinating), but the ultimate dream for me would be a Ferrari F40. I know I say it way too much in other posts, but it's near the very top of all my wishes and, as far as I'm concerned, it's the jewel in the crown atop the venerable House of the Prancing Horse.
My biggest gripe with newer cars is that they all use touchscreens over analog buttons. How can new cars really be that much safer when they have a fucking iPad on the dashboard?
Couldn't agree more. Countless car enthusiasts and reviewers have spoken to how this was a terrible decision, and this choice is the epitome of jamming unnecessary tech into a vehicle to the point where it actually impedes user experience. Generally speaking, it is just another circuit that could break as opposed to a trusty knob that would likely work for the entire life of the vehicle.
Lexus made their last V8 in the IS500. Humanity is over. We had a good run..
Note: Lexus over-engineered their V8 engines... for YOUR benefit ;)
Apple CarPlay and Android Auto are amazing. I couldn’t enjoy a drive without access to Bluetooth to stream music or podcasts. The HD back-up cameras pretty much make it child’s play to back up and park.
As far as EVs go, they are objectively better than ICE cars on almost every relevant metric. On average they are quicker, have better handling, better fuel efficiency, better safety, better interior layouts, less maintenance, and emit less noise pollution and less air pollution over their life cycle. So you’re entitled to an opinion in a free society, but your opinion is objectively, factually wrong.
Your entire comment is based about me being factually / objectively wrong. Lets take a second to unpack your various counterarguments:
The first part of your argument is pure conjecture, carplay being amazing is no more factual than my claim that it is superfluous. This takes away from your thesis which is that I am "objectively, factually wrong". Second, I called out the inherent benefits of backup cams, and as I mentioned, the tech has been around since the 90s, see the Toyota Soarer. Bluetooth has also been around for ages, since roughly 2001, so again, how is this unique to modern cars or a valid counterarguement?
EVs have better handling than ICE vehicles? This is where you really made me smh. I am no expert, but from the data I have combed through, this is not correct. EVs give off the initial reaction of having better handling, but usually leads to oversteer in non-Tesla platforms (cant speak to Tesla dont know enough). The logic behind the oversteer is that when these EV vehicles are developed, they are based on the chassis of ICE vehicles. Therefore, in an effort to save money (most EV products are relatively low margin, or at least have been historically, but are improving over time) the auto OEMs replace the engine in the front with the electric battery and motor in the back, creating a material weight shift. Don't even get me started on roll centers, but that also implies better handling when comparing an ICE and EV model (see the comparison of the Hyundia Kona here by Autoexpert).
Regarding safety, yes EVs are safer due to reduced flammability on the batteries when contrasted with ICE engines, I will not argue there. Kind of a moot point overall though, as cars rarely go up on flames anymore. In other words, the safety benefits are marginal, and immaterial to 99.99% of drivers.
Better interior layouts is entirely subjective so I wont even bother going there with you.
Lower maintenance is a bad take because as I called out with Tesla, they are notoriously unreliable. The correlation between maintenance and reliability is basically 1:1, so lets focus on reliability as there is more tangible and generalized data available. If you look at a study done in the UK by a group called Which?, they found that ICE vehicles are more reliable (source: Power Nation TV). For a second, I am gonna ask you to use basic logic. Which products most likely are more reliable, one based on fundamental mechanical capabilities developed 100 years ago, or EVs which have only emerged within the past 20 years?
Lastly, we arrive at noise and air pollution. Not sure if you ever read my post at this point, but my entire post makes it impossible to ignore the fact that I already said EVs are better from a pollution standpoint. Noise pollution? What are you, the 80 year old woman who complains every time I hit 3k rpms in my stock exhaust? Thats so meaningless that it again doesn't merit a real response. Of course they are objectively louder, which again I believe I explicitly called out in my original post.
Your entire comment comes off as condescending and as though you are using raw data to override my naive assumptions about the auto industry. The irony is that you are mostly using opinions and trying to come off as though you are relying on data. Then, you use the most obvious facts of all time to try and drive your case home. EVs being quieter and more environmentally beneficial than ICE engines, who in their right mind would argue either of these? Your comment reminds me of the junior high "persuasive" arguments I would read as a child. That doesn't both me, but what does is how your post gives off the impression that 1. Im an idiot with little to no knowledge on what I am talking about, and 2. That I didnt take the time to consider any of the glaringly obvious counterarguments you made, even though I called them out in the original post.
I’ve never seen a post wrong about literally every word written on a topic, from “the” to “a”. It’s like every single word is wrong. I have a job and can’t write a book right now in response but I will respond line by line later today. Holy shit.
So to start out with some necessary snark, there are clearly two delineated paragraphs. One talking about the things I like about modern tech in cars and one how your opinion is factually wrong about EVs. In the paragraph about EVs I said your opinion is factually wrong, not your opinion about Apple CarPlay or Bluetooth—this is obvious with even the slightest use of your prefrontal cortex. So there’s no point in responding further to this. That said, try linking your iPhone 13 with Bluetooth in a 2009 VW GTI and see how much the process sucks. It sucked 13 years ago, so I hardly think your point about Bluetooth being in cars back in 2001 is valid as the process of using your modern playing device in an old car would be annoying, at best, and possibly useless.
Handling
Yes, a well-engineered EV will almost certainly have better handling than a comparable ICE vehicle with a front engine (we’re not talking about comparing a Ferrari with a Ford Mach E). This is why Tesla Model 3 Performance models, for example, are consistently modified for racing competitions—with their low drag coefficient and skateboard battery that holds the vehicle down, they are fantastic for road handling (though this is broadly true for most EVs designed with a skateboard battery—they will handle better than ICE peers because of low-seated weight).
https://www.patriotledger.com/story/news/2020/08/31/tesla-model-3-wins-2020-pikes-peak-hill-climb-exhibition-class/42577663/
Also, Tesla Model 3 is the least likely mass production vehicle to rollover in the history of vehicles (Tesla Model Y is #2), which says a lot about handling capability.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-3-lowest-probability-injury-any-vehicle-ever-tested-nhtsa
So yes, handling can be subjective, but winning race competitions and rollover testing speak volumes.
Safety
No, you’re way understating this point. EVs are objectively safer vehicles.
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/with-more-electric-vehicles-comes-more-proof-of-safety
From the IHHS:
“an updated analysis of insurance data shows injury claims are substantially less frequent for evs... The updated data show that rates of injury claims related to the drivers and passengers of electric vehicles were more than 40 percent lower than for identical conventional models.”
As I already mentioned and linked to, the Tesla Model 3 and Model Y lead the planet in rollover test ratings. Rollover is the top reason for non-pedestrian vehicular deaths. Having no front engine to smash into the vehicle cabin is also very helpful in safety.
Interior Layouts Aren't Entirely Subjective
EVs either DO or CAN have better interior layouts necessarily because there are far fewer parts, no transmission that creates a rear bump, no front engine, no radiator, no exhaust system or catalytic converter, etc., and often there is a front trunk.
https://www.lifewire.com/why-evs-are-roomier-5202177
Example: The Kia Niro has 451 liters of trunk space; the Kia Niro EV has 475 liters. This is an EV that was simply converted to an EV and is not purposely built as an EV. Vehicles that are purposely built EVs will have noticeably better layouts and/or space, if the designers choose.
Since so many EVs are currently ultra-luxury, a lot of the designs still waste space with huge front ends that look great (see the Lucid Air as an example). But the fact remains that a vehicle with an electric motor will necessarily allow designers—if they choose—to design vehicles with either more interior space or better layouts than similarly sized vehicles with engines. This is just a mathematical fact.
Reliability is Meaningless in an ICE vs EV Comparison and Also Highly Misleading
The often-cited Tesla reliability scores are highly misleading. The Tesla Model 3 is Tesla’s top seller and ranks average in the reliability category. What really brings down Tesla’s overall “reliability rating” are things unique to Tesla, such as the Model X gull wings (gull wings are notoriously unreliable, hence why you only see them on super cars and DeLoreans and almost never on mass production cars) and Tesla’s full-self driving software package—in other words, Tesla’s reliability scores are substantially harmed by things that no other car company is offering or dealing with (i.e., there are no Toyota Corolla FSD or gull wing packages to hit reliability scores) and these issues are totally independent of electric vehicles. If you get a Model 3 with no $13,000 FSD package, you will have a normal reliability rating.
https://jalopnik.com/tesla-isnt-technically-the-least-reliable-car-company-1848089974___.YXAzOmticmE6YTpvOjQ0YjgyMmM5NzE1NDQ3ZDQyNDFlZDMyNjZkNjhlMjY5OjY6N2Q2YTpkODkwMTA5YzA5ZmFiYjJiZmMxMmFjZjYwNjk4OWE0M2IwNmIxYzljYmE4ZGEyMjFmMjNkNmVlYTM3OGE3MDljOnA6VA
Also, Tesla consistently ranks #1 in customer satisfaction, so there is a huge disconnect between the reliability scores and customer satisfaction—that’s because these minor start-up production issues pale in comparison to the whole package.
https://insideevs.com/news/549130/consumerreports-tesla-reliability-poor-2021/___.YXAzOmticmE6YTpvOjVlNmRkYTI4YzIxYTFlY2JjM2Q1MGY2M2YyYzJmZDdhOjY6YWIwNTo1YzhlM2Q3Nzk2ZjNhOGJjNThiZGRjMWViOGZlMTExZWU2Y2M1YzI3N2U1MmM2Mjk1ZjFlNGNkZjJlNDc1ZjBjOnA6VA
Maintenance Costs and “Reliability” are NOT Synonymous
EVs do cost less to maintain over their lifetimes. These analyses have been pretty common and pretty much always show net maintenance savings—this analysis says 30% less to maintain.
https://www.hotcars.com/how-much-ev-owners-save-in-service-costs-compared-to-ices/#:~:text=Referring%20to%20the%20cost%20of,30%25%20lower%20than%20ICE%20vehicles
And it’s just intuitively true—there are ~90% fewer moving parts in an electric motor and regenerative braking means you hardly use brakes at all. Also, car dealerships, which make a good portion of money off of maintenance, have been the single biggest obstacle to wide-scale EV adoption because they purposely don’t push EVs over ICE vehicles, which are more profitable to their maintenance service.
Anyway, the whole “reliability = maintenance costs” is simply not true. When you say “reliability,” one thinks about the car breaking down on the interstate, but really you’re talking about software bugs and panel misalignment, often things that are fixed under warranty. I had a software issue with my new Tesla Model 3. I re-set the computer in a 20-second re-start and the issue was resolved and has been resolved for 19 months, but that hits against reliability scores (if reported in a survey).
Noise and Air Pollution
As far as noise pollution, when South Park tackled the issue over a decade ago with Harley riders acting like annoying asses by purposely making loud noise, they were hardly considered 80-year-old grandmas. Making a lot of noise in the public to act cool makes you an ass and not cool at all. So yes, the sum total of replacing the nation’s fleet of internal combustion engines with comparably quieter EVs is a good thing, especially for those of us who live in cities. Replacing the old garbage truck with a new EV garbage truck that picks up trash at 5 am is a GOOD thing.
Me listing off the good things about EVs—e.g., lower air pollution—doesn’t discount that you mentioned it. It’s a fucking list. Get over yourself.
My comments were supposed to come off as condescending. There’s nothing I hate more in the world than someone with strong opinions about topics with which they have virtually no knowledge . Your opinions are stupid and not factually sound. You’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to call it a moronic opinion. Your original post is condescending to EV owners and to Tesla owners. As both, I’m entitled to push back on your completely unfounded and wrong opinions. If you don’t like it you can fuck off. Welcome to America, asshole.
Edit: For the record, WSO's formatting is coming off really weird. Never seen this happen. Looks like some kind of bug.
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It's actually pretty true thinking back on the HL guys back in the day
I love this post - lot of thoughts to unpack here. Just curious what your thoughts on the direction of the future of cars.
Lot of manufactures are switching over to electric cars and will stop production of gasoline engines - any thoughts on this??
DB is not a BB xD
suv
Another point I've noticed is how much space is taken up publicly by places to put a fucking car. Parking lots and parking garages plainly suck. There could be a park there. Or a bar. Instead it is 55 Tahoes and Hondas, just nasty shit.
I think this is largely an issue caused by improper infrastructure upgrades over time / lack of sufficient public transport. As many of the largest cities in the US grow at a rapid rate, infrastructure stays outdated, coupled with insufficient public transportation options. When cities scale rapidly is when it becomes hardest to increase public transportation options in accordance with population / relocation growth.
It would almost make more sense for the US to do what is happening in China and to build a massive new city in the middle of no where and once modern infrastructure is in place to incentivize corporations to move there. They are popping up cities designed to handle 1 mm + citizens at an alarmingly quick rate.
In reality, it looks as though we will continue to rely on overcrowded, underdeveloped cities until the downfall of the US.
Agree wholeheartedly with this post.
Recently had a brand-new rental car in Europe and the built-in lane warning and other safety gadgets are straight-up maddening, a fact that's even worse when they can't be turned off.
I do have some hope for future petrol-heads, however. Between hydrogen combustion engines and synthetic fuels, I think there's a solid future for enthusiasts, especially given the amount of legacy investment that carmakers have made into combustion technology. Just don't tell the politicians about it.
Agree with literally every word.
Also, I like to think about the new features in terms of how much you would pay daily to use them.
If every morning, you literally had to put $1.00 cash into your car to use the 360 camera view and then another $0.75 for for your blind spot detection, you would literally never do it. But that's exactly what you are doing when you buy a new overpriced car. Take the price of that feature, divided by the number of rides you will realistically expect to take while owning the car, and ask yourself would you actually pay that before leaving the house every day.
Completely agree, +1 SB.
If I were a auto OEM I would create a bare bones modern vehicle, in both SUV and sedan form. I would cut all the non-essential tech and sell it for a fraction of what the average "budget" modern autos are going for. I would watch people line up around the block. The demand is there, auto manufacturers just capitalize on it.
Think about how many people say "I dont care about cars or what kind of car I drive". That must make up roughly 60% of the population, no? Why not incentivize them to buy your vehicle at half the cost and keep it extremely simple. Over engineering for an audience with no appreciation for it is comical.
I agree with you! Come to the track and talk to the guys who grew up with NA V8s and raced. A person who really cares doesn’t have calories to dedicate to breaking down the industry is shit. There’s shit ends to both sides. I’ve dedicated almost all my free time to racing and still realize you can’t win with whichever side you go to.
Buy a C5 and you’ll see that most of the car around that time need to be gutted due to age and deteriorated interior. If you really want to feel the full potential of these older race cars, you’ll need to turn laps on a track frequently to learn how to drive it correctly. Usually, it takes someone a lifetime to master these cars so get started early if you’re this passionate. If you miss the old style so much, go and revive one yourself. Then do what you want with it whether that be daily driving on back roads or going to the track. Have pride in taking care of it and replacing parts, it’s just the nature of the beast.
Some companies lose money by keeping older platforms like Suzuki did when creating the DR650. We can’t go back so either get ready to revive your coveted classics and gut them OR settle for every creature comfort + electronic assisted everything. I think humans are perverse and we can only deviate from older platforms going forward, I appreciate all of it.
Racing at the track every weekend and coming from a track oriented family taught me that everyone has to bite the bullet whether it be on an old or new platform.
Couldn’t agree more. Only thing I would say is the Taycan is a fucking fantastic EV for the price. Yes, market prices for the taycan are $100,000+ but it’s SIGNIFICANTLY better than dropping $170,000+ for a Tesla Model S Plaid with uneven body panels and ZERO evidence for quality control.
Either way, you’re spot on.
Yeah I hear ya. I have been meaning to jump into one of those, just waiting for the right opportunity. Porsche rarely disappoints (exception being the Macan, Cayanne is meh as well IMO). Taycan Turbo S is probably as engaging as you can get with an EV build, but I bet its fun enough to make you feel alive.
Personally disagree with 2. I got to ride in a launched model S plaid and it’s awesome imo if what you want is the feeling of the quickest acceleration you can get. Agree that Tesla’s craftsmanship and quality control is shoddy though.
I also don’t get the hype around SUVs, but some people like what they like, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Live and let live.
An EV is like a microwave. It's an appliance. Sure, you could cook a burger in a microwave. It will be safe and edible, and it will be easy and fast. But it will have no flavor, no personality. Just like driving an EV.
That's why in this day and age I think it's important to differentiate a car enthusiast and a driving enthusiast. You can be a car enthusiast and like EVs. But if you're a driving enthusiast you'll be in something analog, manual transmission, ICE, steering that feels connected to the wheels unlike todays bullshit that's electric due to laws about lane keep assist.
Keep your fucking tesla I'll keep my v8 stickshift basket of fun.
Couldn't have said it better myself, hope you get put many more miles on her. Im honestly thinking of buying a second V8-engine coupe as a psuedo investment. If it actually appreciates, awesome, what a win. If it doesn't, cool, I have another toy to play with. Only thing keeping me from doing it now is the monthly insurance. Suppose I could just park it in a garage somewhere and cancel the insurance, but the risk really seems to outweigh the reward there.
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