DEI (Divide Exclude Indoctrinate)
Just got my comment censored for speaking out against DEI on someone else’s thread so decided on a post. No ideology besides Communism is more inherently unamerican than DEI. The idea that openly discriminating against one race / sex while giving preferred treatment to others is not just okay but morally righteous is laughable. Watching some of you twist yourselves into pretzels to defend this nonsense or downplay the affects it has on hiring has been eye opening. I’ve been on the other side of the table and seen lesser candidates get hired solely in the name of DEI. Let me tell you, once you see it you can’t unsee it.
For those of you that agree with me, maybe instead of shit posting / waiting for Elon to abolish DEI, you should actually volunteer to meaningfully participate in hiring, have some tough / respectful conversations with MDs about hiring on the merits, etc. You need to actually advocate publicly for your ideas if you want to see change, not just whine privately. If you really want to get back to the merits, we have to win the war of ideas / public opinion by actually convincing people our way is better.
Truly Yours,
A “Diversity” Hire
people misinterpreted my original comment so i'm changing it so it's hopefully more clear.
maybe i'm a corporate tool for turning a blind eye to DEI. but i also don't think it resolves anything it's mainly supposed to. DEI is a band aid solution for most corporations to pretend and show they care about the community when they don't. sure, investment banks aren't exactly directly doing anything impacting the community since they're middle players, but it's a marketing trend at the end of the day. it's sure a lot easier for corporations to look like they care about their community when they have a DEI page while they avoid paying taxes of their accounts in cayman islands or ireland.
i don't think DEI should play any role in promotions. and even at hiring level for analysts/associates, i don't think there needs to be any unreasonable mandates either. as for people arguing about meritocracy, i never found any part of the finance industry meritocratic.
also i don't understand this corporate bootlicking of not wanting the "lesser" candidates? IB doesn't require you to be a math genius from caltech. not to mention, everyone exits IB in like 2-3 years and afaik there's almost non existant dei pipeline for exit roles. i guess you, OP, can complain tho since you're an associate and missed out on the good exit opps.
Please think about this carefully. You think I’m a corporate bootlicker for challenging corporations’ stated mandates followed by a template insult. Are you sure you’ve thought this through?
> also, if anybody thinks that removing DEI will give them a spot, that spot will likely go to nepotism hires.
Muhhh Nepotism.
"The grapes were sour anyway."
Becky spotted. Can tell she is DEI hire and knows she is incompetent and doesn’t belong.
nuff said, typical DEI hire response.
You are a tool and exactly the kind we don’t want in banking. How does a 50% gender quota in hiring / promotions alleviate the impact of colonial oppression and economic exploitation. You sound like female A&A who are riding the gravy train, have imposter syndrome, and are trying their best to maintain this privilege by playing victim or pretending to be allies with blacks / hispacs / lgbtq.
*Western nation builds a functioning society and creates generational wealth opportunities in some 3rd world backwater*
StOp ExPlOiTiNg Me
DEI bad. Now give me SB
Obv Had to give you MS on the merits.
DEI as defined by banks includes, women from a gender angle, black and hispanics from a racial angle, and LGBTQ+ from an orientation perspective. By and large, banks mainly care about gender diversity as it is the main metric they report, and the largest beneficiaries of gender targets are white Beckys, hence, you will not see material resistance from white men in power circles.
Senior bankers will not push back as 1) they already made their money so doesn’t hurt to virtue signal 2) DEI metrics are included in their performance criteria. Playing along will keep their $$$ flowing
Also don’t their clients take DEI into account for mandates??
Based on experience, rarely do clients care about DEI unless there is a govt. entity involved. Main criteria is the quantum of bank financing you can offer plus expertise in the sector apart from relationships.
Senior bankers use this tactic to shift the blame for DEI policy onto the client. They are sheep, if you link their bonuses to having an “all black” pit, they will do that and advocate how this will create value for shareholders in 2090. GS bailed on climate change charter; rumor has it they are quitting gender charters too post Jan 20.
Here is how the DEI policy flows,
Government > Pension funds > Institutional investors like BlackRock > Banks Compensation of bank execs is dictated by large institutional investors who insist on DEI metrics, hence, these Execs force these evil gender quotas on us.
My three biggest qualms regarding DEI:
1. It hurts the diverse people who would have met the bar without any DEI boost since people will always question whether they got in on merit or not.
2. When subpar DEI candidates get in and then start taking part in the hiring process you end up in an inverted state where qualified candidates are getting rejected by unqualified interviewers, and the long term effects of that are scary.
3. If you take a look at recent med school class demographics, it’s pretty common to see stats like 65% women and 20% LGBTQ, which don’t reflect societal averages. I personally don’t care how “diverse” my doctor is and just want them to be good at their job, and if this trend of diverse admissions continues it could have devastating effects down the road.
As an aside:
Some years back the head of diversity at Apple (a black woman with 20 YOE) gave a speech in which she said
“There can be 12 white, blue-eyed, blond men in a room and they’re going to be diverse too because they’re going to bring a different life experience and life perspective to the conversation, Diversity is the human experience, I get a little bit frustrated when diversity or the term diversity is tagged to the people of color, or the women, or the LGBT.”
Shortly afterwards she was fired due to public backlash.
We see this post 3-4 times per day… why does this discussion need to happen ad-infinitum.
Because folks are getting screwed over and this policy has to change (and don't give me the BS response of "if you're qualified, you'll for sure get an offer at GS/MS/JPM/PJT/EVR/CVP/LAZ etc". I came across so many incompetent kids getting top offers over super-sharp and impressive kids that it's nonsense).
I honestly don't have issues with hiring women, vets, POCs, etc. Actually, I think it's encouraged. But when you face the truth that 90% of banks (not just BBs) have hard quotas on the min. no. of DEI hires they need to fill their class with, you wonder about to what extent the recruiting process is actually meritocratic
They are even dishonest in promotions. MDs under pressure from HR are ignoring rankings of A&A put forward by VPs and Directors just so that they can elevate women to meet gender targets.
DEI is an easy scapegoat. This is a tough industry to break into and there is luck involved. I won’t say there are no impacted candidates, but like 80%+ of the people complaining on here were never in the running to begin with lol
I am not even anti dei bruh, I can see that lower income people have an extremely difficult battle. But hiring white and Asian Becky’s from prep school is just comical and those are the loudest and most defensive people I know. Probably why they never shut the fuck up about how they deserve their spots lol.
Agree with your last paragraph. If you want change (for anything), be an advocate. Hiding online and crying does nothing.
This is spot on. After you see 1 case, it completely changes your view. This topic has been discussed endlessly around here. Just find some good lawyers and bring some discrimination cases so at least you can get paid for hating the DEI recruitment/career progression. Other than that, keep drinking the Kool Aid and try to push for meritocracy whenver you can influence an outcome. There's 0 benefit of being a harsh advocate against it in a company (although in private, on 1 to 1, almost everyone agrees it's BS).
DEI in its current form with a preference for women, especially white Beckys is discrimination and nepotism lumped together. Trump might pass some legislation to ban it but Canada has no hope, both Trudeau and PP are equally woke when it comes to DEI.
I think the frustration/agitation is unfairly misdirected towards diverse candidates and the banks. If you truly had commercial awareness, beyond the “in weeds” perspectives of an analyst /associate, you would know that banks implement DEI policies because it’s what their CLIENTS want to see from their banking partners. In reality, business is not a “hard science” like law or medicine, so merit from a “technical knowledge” perspective isn’t really that profitable since its effectively a commodity —> hence the reason analysts/associates are the cheapest most dispensable resource/and anyone can learn valuation stats & metrics.
Think logically:
1. The “customer” is always right. Financial sponsors raise capital from public pension funds that contain 401ks from a diverse group of people,( teachers, fire fighters, etc.) so they must embrace DEI or else they will be COOKED in further fundraises. Given this fact, sponsors want to work with banks who also embrace DEI, and the same is true for F500s —> they also require the same thing.
2.) By 2050 the global economy, America included, will be considered a predominantly diverse population. People do business with who they like, and studies show that diverse populations like to do business with corporations, vendors, bankers, etc that reflect the broader population. Banking is professional services, and rule #1 is to “Know your Customer”. If you remember this simple rule, you’ll realize why DEI is actually good for business, even it doesn’t align with some peoples’ preferences.
You sound like one of those Trudeau cabinet members; liberals as it is convenient. 25% of elected representatives are women in Canada, yet 50% of cabinet seats are occupied by women. Flag bearers of incompetency. Btw, Microsoft, Alphabet, and Tesla both got rid of their DEI teams. Want to “know your client” now?
Since, when did these pension funds outline that you need 50% gender quotas and that white Beckys need to be main picks for these spots. No need to lump so called “diverse” candidates together when by and large women (mainly white) are freeloading in this category with the odd black / hispanic to seem inclusive.
Simply put, DEI massively benefits white women and they will do all within their power for it continue infinitely. Democratic Party the torch bearer of DEI is primarily backed by feminist women.
It's not just white beckys, Asian beckys too which are annoying af
In fairness, I do believe diversity efforts should focus a bit more on competent POC who come from disadvantaged/lower income backgrounds.
I’m a U.S. citizen, so not entirely invested nor actively interested in the sociopolitical dynamics of Canada. That said, I hear your grievances.
Just make it to the senior level and it becomes less of a problem. A&As think they have a much bigger say than they actually do - the harsh reality is you’re a commodity at that level. Countless people can do the job you do.
As someone mentioned, leadership is judged and paid on diversity metrics, so until that changes, they won’t change. Therefore since the lower levels don’t have much of a say anyways, they’ll try to beef this level up with DEI to get the overall numbers up.
The good news - I’ve seen DEI kind of goes out the window at the VP+ level where the employees have more impact and decision making capacity. At that point, the most qualified people regardless of gender/race get paid and promoted because their role actually matters and is much higher impact.
Agreed - Issue is climbing up to that level with 50% seats already allocated to females. Post VP, DEI is not as substantial of an issue.
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Plenty of complaints about white beckys but IMO privileged Asian beckys are up there with them. Zero competence yet they are all full of themselves because they got in as diversity hires. Just embarrassing
Agreed. They're also the ones who would always complain about "bamboo ceiling" lmao
Bamboo ceiling my ass, they are honestly among the most unreliable and sneakiest colleagues one can have. Not sure they realize the name they're making for themselves
I don't see what the 50th thread on WSO will achieve.
It's time to make these points to the people that actually influence hiring; Trump might be a start.
For the rest of us, HF is the way. If you lose money, you're out.
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