Do you believe in God?

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larry david

It depends on what you mean by God. I can say with a high degree of confidence that the God of the Abrahamic faiths is a man-made creation. The narratives don't make any internal sense and there is a lack of evidence for the existence of such being. 

Anddd most of the population disagrees with you.

larry david

It depends on what you mean by God. I can say with a high degree of confidence that the God of the Abrahamic faiths is a man-made creation. The narratives don't make any internal sense and there is a lack of evidence for the existence of such being. 

That being said, I would never rule out the possibility of there being something that we might call God. There are so many mysteries in the universe. Why is there anything at all? There are uniform laws governing the universe that are always true. The list goes on and on. Is there some sort of deistic or pantheistic God that set this in motion? On that question I am truly agnostic. However, I don't see any reason to think that this being cares about human affairs.     

The narratives absolutely make internal sense. I would challenge you to give me an example of the narratives not making "internal sense." 

There is overwhelming evidence for a god generally, but there is also plenty of evidence for Jehovah God. For example, atheists for decades resisted the Big Bang Theory (which was conceived by a Catholic priest) because it seemed to verify the general notion of the Bible that creation had a beginning as common scientific thinking had assumed the universe was eternal. To me, the most compelling evidence is fulfilled prophesy. Here is a summary of the fulfilled promises/prophesies of Jehovah God to Israel:

1. God gave Abraham a son and through him countless generations

2. God took the Jews out of Egypt and into the promised land.

3. God helped Israel conquer the promised land.

4. God delivered the Jews into captivity among their enemies.

5. God dispersed the Jews all throughout the nations

6. God permitted prejudice and hatred to come against the Jews ever since and made them uncomfortable in every land they’ve settled in. God made them feel unsettled in every land so that they would feel horror.

7. God kept them from being fully exterminated in their persecution

8. The land of Israel, with the Jews missing, would become a waste land.

9. God would gather the Jewish people back to their land; for the first time in 2,600 years they have their own sovereignty when in 1948 the Northern and Southern kingdoms (Judea and Samaria) were united, as promised.

10. When the Jews return to their homeland, it would become highly productive land again (Israel is proportionately one of the most productive nations on Earth).

Scary future prophesies: In the last day before the Messiah’s return, "Jerusalem would become a burdensome stone for all people." Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. All the nations of the Earth will be gathered against her. "I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock and injure those who try to come against them." The Bible lists the name of Israel’s enemies (who were not contemporary enemies). Contemporary lands of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Gaza strip, Lebanon, approximate lands of Iran/Afghanistan/Pakistan, and Syria (the “children of Lot”). When this happens, there is a "whirlwind" (an extreme destruction).

You can do the same thing with the Bible's prophesies about the Messiah (when he would be born, where he would be born, how he would be executed (predicted ~200 years before the manner of execution was invented by Rome), his rejection by the Jewish people). 

Then you've got the fact that true things produce good things and false things produce bad things. Ever since the printing press was invented in the late 15th century, providing common people access to the Bible written in their own language, Christian societies have flourished and from those societies have flowed science, modern banking, human freedom, women's rights, modern democracy, beautiful architecture, universities, etc. 

The "heroes" of the Old and New Testament, e.g., Peter, James, Thomas, etc., Moses, etc. are, at best, anti-heroes. Especially NT figures, they are poorly educated scum of the Earth. They deny Jesus, disbelieve him, constantly misunderstand his words, are rebuked harshly ("get behind me, Satan" Jesus said to Peter). People making up false religions, such as Joseph Smith and Muhammad, make heroes of themselves. The Bible's description of Satan's fall says that he intended to be equal to God, not greater than God. A sloppy fiction writer would have said Satan intended to be greater than God. 

11 of the 12 apostles were brutally executed, all refusing to renounce what they had witnessed. A lot of people die for false beliefs; no one dies for things they know are lies.

Old Testament numerology is crazy. Some of the most insane stuff comes up when conducting numerological analysis of the earliest Old Testament Hebrew texts. For example, a number sequence skip spells out "Torah" in Genesis and Exodus and "Torah" backwards in Numbers and Deuteronomy and in Leviticus (the middle book or arcane Biblical law that speaks of sacrifice for sin) spells Yahweh, i.e., "Torah" points to the name of God and ultimately to Christ. 

Tens of thousands of Muslims have come to Christ through dreams and visions of Jesus. Their testimonies are all over the internet. I would challenge you to listen and/or read some of them. 

Most "faith healings" are fakes from charlatans, but there are some and they are always for the purpose of the Gospel. I have 2 examples in my own life. My friend had epilepsy from birth and was healed in 1993 and has been epilepsy free ever since. In August 2023 my friend was dying of cancer after a 10-year battle; she had a dream that she would be healed, went into the oncologist still feeling like garbage and the oncologist walked into her room utterly stunned and in disbelief because she had witnessed a miracle--my friend was totally without cancer. My friend, who I used to buy medical marijuana for from my dealer friends, was totally healed of her cancer and the doctors have no explanation. These things happen all the time, although they are still pretty rare. 

mech60

Catholic and I am very close with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Mormons have very different beliefs than Catholics. Some of which are:

“1. God the Father is a glorified man, possessing a physical body.

That is, the Almighty Lord was once born of human parents in some other universe. He lived a Mormon way of life, repented of his sins, died, and was eventually raised by his God and installed as God of this world.

Mormons justify this belief by mishandling and misunderstanding such biblical texts as Genesis 1:26-27, Exodus 33:11, Deuteronomy 4:34, Psalms 33:18, and Nahum 1:3. Most of these passages, and others like them, refer to the “arm,” “eye,” and “feet” of the Lord. However, other passages speak of God’s “feathers” and “wings” (Ps. 91:4). Or they refer to him as a “consuming fire” (Deut. 4:24) or a “rock” (Deut. 32:4). In all these examples, the inspired writers simply try to communicate in human words and images the inexpressible power, presence, and love of the infinite God.

Latter-day Saints force the context of Genesis 1:26-27. Since man is made in God’s image, they argue, God must look like a man. Though the Genesis passage states God created man both male and female, Mormons insist that God the Father is a male. The fact is, “the image of God” refers not to some literal correlation of body parts but to the spiritual similarities shared by him with his rational creatures (angels and human beings). In other words, we are made in God’s image because we, like him, can choose and can love. We are endowed with the possibility of such moral and intellectual qualities as holiness, wisdom, and justice. By these, we enjoy spiritual fellowship, even sonship, with the Father and “pattern” of our spirits.

When confronted by Mormons with their belief in an almighty Heavenly Father, ask them about his origins. Was there ever a time he didn’t exist? Was he always God? Did he ever commit sin? (Mormon apostle Bruce R. McConkie taught that the Father “worked out his own salvation by obedience to the same laws” he has since given us. [A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, 64]). If he has a body of flesh and bones, where is it? (On a planet near the star Kolob, Mormons maintain. See Abraham 3:3 in The Pearl of Great Price. )

Help Latter-day Saints to see the true nature of God: He is infinite Spirit (John 4:24). A spirit does not have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39). God is not a man, even an exalted one (Num. 23:19; Hos. 11:9). God was always God; he is immortal, and he is all-holy (1 Tim. 1:17). No one can see the “face” of God and live (Ex. 33:20, John 1:18).

2. There are many Gods.

Mormons will tell you they believe in one God whom they call the Heavenly Father. They worship and pray to him alone. But-referring to Genesis 1:26-27 and 1 Corinthians 8:5-Latter-day Saints insist the ancient Jewish patriarchs and prophets, along with Paul and the other apostles, believed in a plurality of Gods.

If you press them, they respond, “Look, God himself taught Mormon doctrine. See here, God says, ‘Let us make man in our image’ [Gen. 1:26]. He was talking to His Son, Jesus Christ, and the spirit-man, the Holy Ghost. Right there, then, you’ve got three Gods. Those three Gods oversee our universe. The Father is supreme, and the other two are his helpers.”

At first blush, the Mormon apologist has confused three distinct persons of the Trinity with three separate Gods. But it gets worse. Paul, they maintain, knew of other Gods when he wrote to the Corinthians: “For there be [those] that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth (as there be gods many and lords many), but to us there is but one God” (1 Cor. 8:5-6). Therefore, Mormons assert, there are as many supreme Gods as there are worlds. Brigham Young taught that the number of Gods and worlds is uncountable (Discourses of Brigham Young, 22). The LDS Church occupies itself with only the one (or three?) Gods of this world and leave it to inhabitants of other universes to worship and obey their respective Gods.

As for the Genesis citation, no Jewish or Christian commentator sees the least hint of polytheism in the use of the plurals “us” and “our.” While the Hebrew word for God, Elohim, is in plural form, and therefore must be replaced by plural pronouns, the rest of the passage is in the singular: “God created (singular verb) man in his own image.” Various interpretations are consistent with the biblical revelation of monotheism. For example, the Lord may have simply used the “plural of majesty”-rather like a monarch and, until recently, the pope, who often referred to himself as “we.” Or God may have been addressing his heavenly court of angels, who also possessed the image of God in that they were rational beings endowed with knowledge, will, and immortal life. Further, Christians may comfortably conclude the Father was indeed communicating with the Son and the Holy Spirit, who, as mighty God, exist dynamic and creative from all eternity.

Paul did not teach a plurality of Lords and Gods. He merely commented that there are entities that are called gods. Whether he was referring to the crass idols of Zeus or Hermes, or craftier masters such as greed and pride, he-and we-know that men have created and will continue to create other gods and lords, displacing the one true God. We do not merely limit our adoration and service to one God among millions; we don’t, in fact, know of any other God.

You can help the Mormon see the fallacy of multiple infinite beings. While not explicitly presented in the Bible, the doctrine of the Trinity is imbedded in Scripture’s insistence on one only God and its clear teaching that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are persons possessing equal majesty, power, and lordship. They are not united solely in purpose or will, as Mormons assert, but in very being. Read Isaiah 42-45 to find crystallized the ancient Hebrew belief in one God. Christ and his followers confirm monotheism in John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:4, Galatians 3:20, and Ephesians 4:6. The Son is called God throughout Christian scripture. See John 20:28 and Hebrews 1:8. Similarly, the Holy Spirit is confessed as God in Acts 5:3-4 and 2 Corinthians 3:17. If the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet there is only one God, then only the truth revealed in the Blessed Trinity can explain Scripture’s doctrines.

3. A man can become God.

He can’t become God of this world, mind you, since that position is already filled. But a man who lives as a faithful Mormon in this life, fulfilling all obligations imposed on him by the LDS Church, may progress to godhood in the next life. He will be given his own world to populate and rule, together with his heavenly wife or wives (including, usually, his own earthly Mormon spouse).

Spencer W. Kimball, Mormon prophet during the 1980s, declared to a group of male college students: “Each one of you has it within the realm of possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and God. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness to govern such a world with all of its people” (Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, 29). So, having achieved divinity, a man will do for his own creation all that the Heavenly Father has done for him. In turn, he will be worshiped as God by the children he procreates, just as he now adores and obeys God the Father.

Because Mormons see God as an advanced and perfected man, they conclude that their members enjoy a similar progression. They confuse Christ’s admonition to “be perfect” (Matt. 5:48) with “become a God.” In fact, since there is but one God, man’s perfection lies in becoming fully conformed to the divine image in which Adam was created. He is to become a perfect man, aided by the grace brought by the Second Adam, Jesus Christ.

Try to get Latter-day Saints to see that an earthly parent-child analogy cannot apply to our relationship with the Lord. An earthly father’s task is to raise his son to become self-supporting and independent, autonomous in his decisions. It is not so between God and us. We’ll never achieve his status; we’ll never grow apart from him; we’ll always need him. Yes, we shall enjoy fully his communicable attributes of eternal life, love, and goodness. Like a bar of iron, we’ll glow with divine fire (2 Pet. 1:4.) The boundaries between perfect humanity and divine glory may appear blurred. But they won’t be eliminated. We’ll always be his perfected children, never his equal.

When pushed, Mormons will say we can never achieve God’s status, and we’ll never be equal to him. But that’s just an attempt to soften the offense of this doctrine. What they mean is, since the present God has a long head start, we’ll never catch up to him in power and glory. He advances as we do. But a Mormon man, once on the path of progression, may one day arrive at the level God is at now. Then his own sons, becoming Gods in their turn, will push him even further along, into the eternities.

4. Jesus Christ: half-God, half-man.

According to a text published by the LDS Church for use by college-age students, Jesus Christ was “the only man born to this earth half-divine and half-mortal” (The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, 10). Mormonism teaches that matter is eternal. That which we call “spirit” is really just highly refined matter. Therefore, God didn’t create from nothing; He merely “organized” pre-existent matter. This includes the “spirit” form of his Son, Jesus Christ, whom the Heavenly Father and one of his heavenly wives created as their first-born. (Lucifer and his minions, together with every other person, were similarly conceived in the heavens, thus making us all Christ’s junior brothers and sisters.)

Two thousand years ago, the Heavenly Father looked with favor upon his daughter, the Virgin Mary. He visited her in his flesh-and-bones male body and had sexual intercourse with her. The result was Jesus Christ in his mortal body. Since Mormons say they believe Mary was a virgin when she conceived her son, LDS theologians have had to redefine the definition of “virgin.” They say a virgin is a woman who has not had sex with a mortal man; since God the Father was by then an immortal man, no loss of virginity occurred, though “normal and natural” intercourse took place (Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, vol. 1, 314; Mormon Doctrine, 546-547). An early Mormon apostle taught that God the Father and Mary were “associated together in the capacity of husband and wife” (Orson Pratt, The Seer, 158-159).

Many Latter-day Saints believe Christ was married and had children. Because marriage is the only way a man can become a God in the next life, should not the Lord have taken a wife (or wives) and shown us how to live worthily? Since the blessings of marriage are crowned by the birth of children, Christ is said to have had several. While such notions were taught openly during the Mormon presidencies of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the current membership is cautioned not to throw such spiritual pearls before scoffing swine. (See apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses2:210 and 4:259-260; also, president Jedediah M. Grant, Journal of Discourses 1:346.)

Latter-day Saints will not worship Christ. They are forbidden to pray to him. All prayer is directed to the Father only, in the name of the Son. Because they don’t understand the true nature and persons of God, Mormons confuse the divine and human natures of his Son. For them, Christ must be a lesser God, since he (and the Holy Ghost) were formed by the Father and are subjected to him in all things. Though now Gods, Christ and the Holy Spirit became Gods later than did Heavenly Father and are totally dependent upon him who created them.

Biblical verses supporting the Holy Trinity and the full deity of the three persons are also useful here, to establish that Christ is mighty God from all eternity. He accepted and expects adoration. He received Thomas’s worshipful phrase, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28) without demurral; see also Matthew 2:11 and 28:9, 17; John 9:38; and Revelation 5:14.

Keep in mind that Mormons maintain these doctrines are part of the truth revealed by God in every age to his Church. Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, and all the prophets knew and taught God had a physical body, knew and taught a plurality of Gods, knew and taught that men can evolve into Gods, and knew and taught a subordinate Christ. The same is true for the first apostles chosen by Christ two thousand years ago. Such glorious doctrines were lost, the Mormon Church declares, because the Catholic Church, after having replaced the true Church of Christ, removed many “plain and precious” truths from the scriptures. The world was thus enthralled in the blackness of apostasy until the Lord restored all these teachings to Joseph Smith in 1830.

5. In the Mormon Temple, God gives men all the secrets necessary for salvation.

It is in their temples, Latter-day Saints are told, where the full purity of these restored teachings is revealed. The temple ceremonies, written by Joseph Smith soon after he became a Freemason and containing many Masonic parallels, are said to replicate the rituals performed in the temples of Solomon and Herod.

Only those worthy to enter the temple may return to God after death. About twenty percent of Mormons hold “recommends,” cards permitting them entrance to the temple where the secret ceremonies are performed. The so-called “restored” gospel teachings presented above are emphasized visually in a video. I’ve been through the “endowment” ritual several times. It takes about ninety minutes. The words and actions never vary. The temple patron hears the Gods’ plan for creating the world and mankind. The patron makes “covenants” with the Lord to support the Mormon Church in every way he can. He promises not to speak critically of Mormon leaders and to avoid loud laughter. He promises to live a righteous and faithful life.

Throughout the presentation, the patrons are taught special “signs” and “tokens” consisting of various arm gestures and hand clasps, each having sacred names. Participants also don special clothing and head coverings during the endowment.

Temple attendance is obligatory for ultimate salvation. Even if you live a good, holy, Mormon life, assenting to its doctrines and participating in church activities, after death you cannot enter the presence of God without giving him the same signs and tokens and code names learned in the temple. Since to speak of these outside of the temple walls is forbidden, those who desire eternal life must pay the price to enter the temple. (“Pay the price” is not restricted to cash contributions, though to be temple-worthy you must give the church ten percent of your income, plus additional offerings.)

While a Mormon, I lived a life worthy of the temple. I tried hard to be prepared, praying and often fasting before attending an endowment session. But never did I “feel” the promised “Spirit of the Lord” within its walls or during its banal ceremonies. They were rote, repetitious, lifeless, and even silly. (Some Fundamentalist detractors pretend to uncover bizarre satanic or sexual overtones to the temple rituals. Nothing is further from the truth. Since being purged in 1990 of most anti-Catholic references and threats of disembowelment for revealing their secrets, the temple ordinances are now rather bland and-except for their theology-inoffensive.)

God doesn’t appear to be the focus of temple work. There is practically no prayer as such. Each patron is required to listen to the instructions, learn the signs and names, and repeat them accurately. Since the teachings, signs, and gestures never vary, the ceremony becomes quickly familiar. Those who attend do so in the belief that their performance here will enable those who were not Mormons on earth the chance to become saints in “spirit prison.” Some Mormons even boast of going through three or four sessions a day and thus “saving” three or four dead friends or relatives.

The Mormons who come knocking on your door need to know that God is Lord of all. He has revealed himself fully in his Son (Heb. 1:2), who himself charged his apostles to preach the gospel until the end of time (Luke 10:16; 2 Tim. 2:2; 4:2-4). He does not hide himself from his people, but desires they all be saved. He taught the truth openly (Matt. 26:55, John 8:2) and founded a Church to hand it down to every generation (2 Thes. 2:15, 3:16).

There’s no need for temples to teach us the secret way to salvation. That path was made clear by Christ, the light of the world, and is in every age illuminated by his body, the Catholic Church. Christ’s promises of power and permanence, once made, are irrevocable. (See Matthew 16:18, 28:20; John 14:16, 26; 16:13; Eph. 5:29.) The Church has preserved the purity of Christian faith and life. No “former” truths need be “restored” and secretly “revealed.”

Mormonism attracts largely by holding back its offensive doctrines and leading instead with its strong suit of family values and patriotic devotion. But “There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death” (Prov. 14:12). See also 2 Corinthians 11:14: “Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.” The “good fruit” of Mormonism is poisoned by counterfeit theology.”

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/what-you-need-to-know-a…

mech60

Catholic and I am very close with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Also, the Mormon Baptism is not a valid Trinitarian Baptism. 

“The Catholic Church does not recognize Mormon baptism as valid because, although Mormons and Catholics use the same words, those words have completely unrelated meanings for each religion. The Mormon’s very concept of God is infinitely different from that of Christians—even though they call themselves the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Mormons believe that God is only one of many gods who were once men and that each of us in turn can become what God is now. This process of men becoming gods is said to go back infinitely. But of course none of these gods can be infinite if they are multiple and had a beginning and are actually human beings. In Mormons’ view, both Jesus and the Father are what we would call glorified creatures.

They also believe that Jesus came into existence after the Father, and that the Father and the Son are not one in being. Thus, although they use the phrase “the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,” in their usage this phrase takes on a meaning that is actually polytheistic and pagan rather than trinitarian.”

https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-doesnt-the-catholic-church-accept-mormo…

kvaradona

obviously not, any rational person does not believe in God. Even if the most rational theists like William Lane Craig and the Kalam Argument got debunked so fast that he had to make an updated version.

Reminder to all the delusional Theists, you are an Atheist by definition to every other religion ever made (tens of thousands) you simply believe everyone else got it wrong in history and you got it right. Atheists just take one more religion further and say no, your religion isnt the magical exception.

Just because someone else doesn’t fit in the same category with you doesn’t mean they are going to hell.

God is love and comes in many forms.

When a monotheist talks about God, it’s not even comparable to what polytheistic faiths call gods. Each possible way to describe God is different in a monotheistic faith (one God, all knowing, all powerful, all good, etc.). So this argument falls flat on its face when you really dig into how monotheism views a creator vs anything else that’s called a “god” that do not have the same attributes. If anything, Ancient Greek gods for example were more like patron saints of war, love, etc, and not a single being existing outside of space and time with the various characteristics described above. It’s an entirely different viewpoint on who, what, why and how of our existence. Rejecting the concept of an Ares existing and using that as the reason for rejecting the concept of one God would not make any sense. 

SocalSun

Ah yes, Pascal's Wager. This resonates with me. Good post.

big zaddy

I don’t believe in god but would be thrilled to be wrong

More importantly though, I believe organized religion has done more harm to this world than good

It doesn't matter if you believe in God. Do you believe in doing good works for others and treating others as you would like to be treated? If yes, that's all you need. Just don't be a bad person. Shouldn't be too hard.