Currently evaluating a potential job opportunity in DC. General thoughts on living in DC? Move would be from NYC, so definitely weighing the opportunity cost of leaving. Comp isn't a factor, purely from an enjoyment and career trajectory perspective.
Mar 13, 2023Mar 13, 2023
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Comments (40)
I spent 14mo in the DC area then moved to NYC. I was not a fan of DC. Good luck on having a normal conversation at the bar without the other person bringing up politics.
"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee
Isaiah is spot on, city and it's people suck. Extremely transient city based on political party in power and everyone is connected to either politics, law, military or other government. Great city to visit for a weekend, but otherwise I didn't enjoy it.
You're just explaining rich people when saying "everyone is connected to either politics, law, military or other government." That's elitist crap. The vast majority of DC citizens have normal middle-class jobs or work at restaurants.
As a DC native, I gotta push back on these other responses. Yes, there are plenty of overly political twats, but there are also plenty of normal people working in tech, finance, non-profits, corporate jobs, etc. In regards to the social scene, you get back what you put in.
I personally think the city is great. Lots of nice green space, pretty good bar/restaurant scene, always new things to do if you seek them out, and you'll meet a ton of interesting/smart/driven people. And the city isn't horrifically expensive either, I've gone on nice dates for $70 and rents in nice buildings are around $2k. I also love the architecture of the federal buildings, but not everyone would agree with me on that one.
If you have any specific questions, let me know! I'm happy to answer
Key word - DC native. Find me a transplant (who didn't go to UVA, UNC, JMU, VT, richmond, John Hopkins, etc), doesn't work in politics/gov't and genuinely prefers DC over other tier 1 cities.
I agree with you that there are positive aspects to the city. Love running along the river, handful of good restaurants, affordable housing, some nice walkable areas / several little neighborhoods with their own unique feel, cool architecture - but nothing in DC beats other tier 1 cities. It's just… fine.
I don't disagree! Just wanted to add some more positive color to the discussion
Agreed. I grew up as an International whose father served at our home nations embassy in DC. We had our own circle. 12 years later, and I'm an american citizen, and while I like the DC area, almost everyone who likes it is a VA/MD school native, who went to HS in the area (haven't met a transplant who enjoys it here, both american and foreign). I've been to many capital cities around the globe (Abu Dhabi, Bejing, Moscow before implosion, Paris, etc..) and DC offers a pretty shitty quality of life imo in comparison. You really have to be part of the 'establishment' to feel at home here. For an american kid who isn't from the area, I'd look elsewhere. You're better off in LA/SF/CHI/NYC, they're all better than DC in almost all metrics.
DC while being tier 1, gives a tier 2 level lifestyle equivalent to Dallas, ATL, BOS etc..I can't explain why, but the high amount of neurotic, yet ultimately emotionally empty, people must be a contributing factor.
Also, I grew up for a bit in NoVA, and while it's a great place to raise kids, it legitimately feels like the single most soul-less place I've ever seen on this planet. It exists slowly to raise neurotic UMC kids who will be stabbing each other to get into some 3rd rate private/cornell in 15 years time.
I think what makes DC suck is that its objectively hard to meet nice/good people here. Like elsewhere it may take a few tries with different events and meetups, but here, it seems impossible. You have so many grifters who pretend they're big shots, and that kind of grates on the culture.
Like for fucks sake, once I met this random arab who told me he's related to the royals of Abu Dhabi. I've met the Al-Nahyans before and he didn't even know what their last name was. Turns out he was some Yemeni kid whose dad was a halal shop owner lmfao. Like forreal boys, you can't grift like that lol.
You'll like it here if you spend your time reading articles on MBZs next moves for the UAE, or foreign policy changes in ASEAN, but if you're normal, you most likely won't.
UPDATE--
I want to add that diplomatic circles are very guarded, and if you're just some Joe Schmo regular, you won't be breaking in easily. Youssef-Al Otaiba isn't inviting you out unless you're a billionaire. I'm familiar with the arab embassies mainly, can't comment on the others.
Really good points here - especially the comments on how hard it is to meet people and the quality of life being similar to Dallas / Atlanta.
Ironic that your comment also serves as a good example of the type of conversations you'll have in DC.
You meet a seemingly nice guy named John at a bar and he leads off with how his Dad is an important diplomat and belongs a very tight social circle that only elites can infiltrate. John then tells you a story of how someone from a lesser family once pretended to be as well-connected as he is. John name drops a billionaire he knows in the process of telling the aforementioned story. Later, John casually mentions some political figure (Yousef-Al Otaiba) as if he's as famous as Cristiano Ronaldo and you'd be uncultured if you didn't know him. Welcome to DC!
I agree, DC is great and has some of the best suburbs and school districts in the country if that's what you are looking for. Also has a lot of great architecture, museums, and history. Not to mention good public transport and major airports. Feels the most European (in a good way) of any major city in America and is well laid out. Only downsides are the beltway traffic and now the rising crime rates (but lots of cities have these problems atm).
Lived in DC in my 20s… while it was a necessary move for my career advancement, I desperately wish I could get those years back.
If you're not into politics and don't have ties to the city, there are simply so many better places to be. It's a "generic" city outside of its history and political career opportunities.
if you were moving from Milwaukee, Cleveland, or other tier 3 city, I might tell you to go for it. But DC pales in comparison to NYC in every way. The two silver linings are the lower COL and super convenient airport (DCA).
If you're single, stay in NYC or move to somewhere that at least holds a candle to NYC's greatness (LA, SF, Chicago, Miami)
San Francisco requires an environmental permit to use candles (environmental review time is ~7 yrs). Due to candle restrictions SF is no longer a tier 1 city...
Update: Neighborhood consensus and shade studies are required. Shade is protected under San Francisco's charter.
Subtle and eerily-believable.
10/10
Lol I knew if I threw SF in there I'd get a comment about it. I'm not a huge SF fan either, but whatever. I still think of it was more world-class / Tier 1 than DC, even with all of its issues
The above is right on. I lived in DC for 1yr after graduation. It's not a bad city nor a good city. As a place to live it's a 6/10, probably a tad better than avg but that's it
The issue is prices are getting absolutely crazy as more large companies (both tech & otherwise) are moving to the city to be close to regulators. My friends who still live in DC are (including Northern VA) are basically paying $2ml for a 2k sqft home in DC or a nice Nova neighborhood. Or if they're renting, in DC and Arlington at least it's >$2k for a studio and I have friends paying >$2.5k or even 3k for a 1-bed
So basically there's a huge disconnect where it's a slightly better than avg city for extremely high prices. DC is actually the 3rd most expensive area in the country (after NYC / SF), tied with LA. Aside from politics / gov contracting, no reason to really live in DC. Even for natives I can't tell you how many people were trying to get out since they didn't want to live in such a generic city. Above poster is spot on, plenty of much, much better cities depending on what flavor of experience you want (Chicago, NYC, Tampa, etc)
Can you expand on what makes Tampa/Dallas better than DC. I concede that DC is nothing compared to NYC/LA, but I think it holds pretty even with the likes of Boston of SF, depending on personal preferences.
Just curious, because I feel like alot of DC hate comes from the 'culture' of the city as opposed to the city itself. Very similar to SF in that sense as well. It's the capital of the largest empire in hisory, ofc it's going to have its (very) large share of sociopaths and dickheads.
Well I didn't cite Dallas (though the appeal over DC in that case would be much more sun + lot of wide space w/ a pretty modest COL vs DC) but on Tampa it's access to water activities. You can kayak around DC but that's about it (I wouldn't let the Potomac water touch my skin lol). I really can't speak much to Boston as I've spent maybe 1 week there in total but on SF -- would never live there as it's turning into a degenerate pit but the two things it really has going for it are a) world-class Asian food, b) quick access to Napa Valley and c) is still the tech mecca. Not saying it is / isn't better than DC but there's some big draws there
DC is great if you like politics (especially left politics), no doubt. That's why I qualified, but if you're not into the political scene it's just not a good city for the price tag. I think you need to frame it as a) how much value am I getting and b) how much am I paying for that value. The problem with DC is that ratio is waaaaaay off. And if you're not super left I don't think you're going to enjoy the city very much. I'm a moderate and I went to a party once where this girl was talking smack about Navy Yard -- I asked her 'why' since it was becoming a pretty nice place and she accused me of being a hardcore Republican. Wtf? Having sociopaths is par for the course in most T1 cities (NYC / LA are the exact same way), I'm not disputing or complaining about that. I can't think of a single person / friend who 'loves' DC (ex folks who work in politics but even then it's a surprisingly mixed bad) whereas I know a ton of people that love NYC or love Chicago
I'll add a differing perspective here. I actually slightly prefer DC over New York, and significantly over LA and Chicago. It might be a byproduct of the kind of person I am, but when I was living in DC I felt more at home than any other city I've been in. Being government/politics adjacent was quite enjoyable. Schmoozing with policy makers and diplomats isn't for everyone, but there's nowhere better to do it if that's what you enjoy. Lectures at the Cosmos Club, cocktail parties at an embassy, the full breadth of federal agency presence, no other city revolves its beating heart around these kinds of activities. Now, WSO users probably lean more towards the finance-inclined, so NYC makes sense for them, but if your personality/interests align more with the political world, DC is unbeatable.
That's what everyone is saying though -- if you're into the political scene then DC is the best. If you're not, then it's just mediocre / a smidge above mediocre
Great! Thanks for all of the responses guys. Definitely agree with the overall sentiment. Personally more of a fan of NYC, but understand the appealing parts of DC.
With that said, would a job offer at a "top" PE firm change the calculus at all? I do my best to avoid rankings etc, but this is WSO after all.
If you have an offer at the Carlyle Group, then yeah it is probably worth the move.
"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee
Can confirm!
Predicted a lot of the replies above, I get the points made from both anti-DC and pro-DC folks. It is a VERY politically-driven city with lots of partisan arguments and pettiness. Then again, you're literally at the center of the government, so it just comes with the place. I feel as if I can speak on this as I've lived in the area for almost seven years now, late twenties & early thirties.
I'll say this: personally, I have enjoyed my time here. I'll prereq with saying that I've lived In New York, LA, and bumfuck-nowhere VA. Like OP, I moved here for a career trajectory move and the DMV area was not my first choice. It was just where I was needed, and I knew at that point in my life I'd follow the job if it took me to Uganda. I came in with a generally neutral outlook, and I think that served me well - I didn't set my expectations too high, but also expected some city-like material. It's like nothing I've experienced before, being simultaneously dead-opposite from both NY and LA. The vast majority of people in and around the area work a standard 9-5 government job, and are fairly nice, albeit slightly boring. There are some really great spots here - hidden coffee shops, great exhibits, and some beautiful scenery. However, once you get out into NoVA and the MD areas, you're plagued by ten-lane stroads, strip malls, and parking lots. It's just a lot of suburbias.
To clarify, my wife and I live in Arlington. It's what I call an 'urban suburb' - a micro-city just across the Potomac that's right on the brink of DC. We both work in DC, yet what we could get apartment-wise in this area greatly outweighs the capital city. I generally like our spot, but it's just... okay. It's pretty walkable, with plenty of fancy bars and restaurants, as well as good transit, plenty of greenery, and urban parks, and it's probably the best location you can get in this area. It is DAMN expensive when comparing it to the rest of NoVA and American suburbs in general, but a five-minute Metro ride, and I'm right next to the Washington Monument. If that's your jam, then I would recommend checking out Arlington before you decide on getting something in DC proper. Everything within the core is compacted enough that you don't really need to drive anywhere - I grew up w/ the MTA and figured all subway systems were vastly inferior. The Metro doesn't come close to it, but you can generally get where you want pretty easily.
Now, let's talk about the people. As many replies have stated, it's just politics. Armored Tahoes carrying politicians, press cores on every block, Capitol Hill interns spilling coffee. That's the bulk of the people I see when I'm in the District but out of the office. Government contractors, federal agencies, and military groups all have headquarters here. If you like to rub necks with the Fed as lumber_cruncher said, then you can't beat it out. But I'll also agree w/ [Isaiah_53_5 💎🙌💎🙌💎] that it is TRULY hard to have a casual conversation with any given person w/o politics coming into play. I get that it's a part of everyone's life, but sometimes I just want to enjoy a fucking beer without talking about abortion or gun control. Politically speaking, I'm a moderate Republican and my wife is an Independent. If I aired my political beliefs aloud, as in-the-middle as we both are, we'd be crucified by a mob of people calling us any-word-phobics and fascists. It gets a little tiring, so I keep my opinions to myself. That is single-handedly my biggest gripe about this place.
But that's the little spiel I have for you. Make no mistake, this area has some really great parts of it. I'll also say that I've really enjoyed my time here - I met my wife here, got my dog here, and met some of my closest friends here. Life is what you make of it no matter where you are, and there will be no shortage of interesting people to meet. However, I can say that I am excited to leave. The wife and I will be headed to Austin come June, marking the end of my stay in this little place. Just need a change of scenery.
Always open to talking if you want to learn more. Wherever you end up, best of luck to you.
My biggest draw for eventually getting back to DC once I finish my stint in the Army is the suitability for starting a family. The DC suburbs are fantastic for that- very safe, great schools, etc. Personally, I preferred Bethesda to the other side of the Potomac, and the Bethesda/Chevy Chase area is where I hope to end up.
I have a bunch of friends from the area who are away but intend to move back for that very reason.
Quant (ˈkwänt) n: An expert, someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing.
I hope you read the arlnow.com comments on stupid articles like I do
+1 for the "stroads" reference!
Quant (ˈkwänt) n: An expert, someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing.
Best of luck with the move man! I think you'll really like Austin, seemed to be a beautiful place and politically speaking has a lot of folks who are not alt left as well
Thank you, my friend! I am looking forward to getting some sun.
While I know this wasn't your intention, I'll just throw it out there for clarity - I have zero issues with leftists and Dems. This is America, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Again, as a Republican, there are PLENTY of liberal viewpoints I align and agree with, while also being the first to admit that there are WAY too many Republican wackjobs for my liking.
However, I know this wasn't your point, and you mentioned 'alt-left' as not having a substantial population in TX. Hope that's the case - I think alt-leftists and alt-rightists are equally as bad, the right just has more points that I agree with by a small margin. I also wonder if living in this area has made me more conservative due to the influx of liberal ideas I encounter with any given person. I really try to stay impartial to a lot of things, and I'll never shit on anyone for their political beliefs. It's just... a lot in this region. Maybe I sound like a boomer, who knows?
Sorry for the side tangent. Just figured it was appropriate to throw in, regarding this thread on DC culture.
This guy is right on the money, also live in Arlington currently and highly recommend vs. living in town. My commute is out into NoVA vs. going downtown which makes it even more important to be on this side of the river. Cheaper, save on taxes, and can get meaningfully far into the city in ~15mins on the metro
there's nothing and nowhere you could work in DC that you couldn't in NY. But the reverse isn't true. To me, moving to DC isn't worth it overall, but everyone should evaluate what's best for them and their careers
It's a decent city to live in if you have your own social circle, otherwise making friends would be really tough because, imho, DC isn't the most welcoming city out there. Many other transplants I've talked to pretty much share the same opinion with me. I lived there for over two years before moving up north, and my general impression of the people in DMV is that they are uptight and aloof. If you have plenty of friends to hang out with regularly, you might like the city as there are so many things to do: sports, hiking, concerts, foods, escape rooms, etc.
I am contemplating moving to DC as well. IMO. The pros - it's a beautiful city, culture and history. I have a few good friends in and around DC. The cons, mainly from talking to some of the friends: a few find it hard to maintain or enter a social circle. It's all about being part of a 'tribe', because DC is utterly bifurcated by politics ( and it's not only divided into republicans v. democrats, there are different shades of each). The social scene is similar to US politics, naturally because DC is the epicentre of politics - people live and breathe and mimic the behaviour of it's surroundings. Simply put, if you can find 'your people', 'your tribe' you can very well be happy anywhere, so I am still considering the pros and cons myself ( mainly because I have a few good friends in TX and TX economy is strong )
I'm also moving to the dc area but will be in McLean/Arlington area. Don't know shit about NOVA but excited to check it out
Lived there for a few years recently.
It's mostly fine, but a few random specifics.
Surprisingly, the hardest part was being a single guy. I'd expected a city full of young Hill staffers, mostly hired for their looks, fixing to have fun with a guy who has some cash. I was down for that trade. It wasn't that. The girls aren't the best; there's a joke that's something like "girls who model go to NYC and girls who do model UN go to DC".
But the girls aren't terrible like SF. I'd say average. The bigger problem is that the social scene just isn't where it should be. People are kind of weak and lame, low energy. In NYC I can just go to a pub and meet people. DC people are sleepier and just . . meh. Not sure what it is. My working theory is that the young people there don't make as much money as NYC folk, and don't have the same ambition/trajectory in front of them, and this puts them in a different mindset completely about socializing.
Not that the scene was horrible. But it was average, and I was expecting better.
The weather is great for most people. I happen to hate humidity, so that made the summers unbearable for me. But if you're normal you'll enjoy the weather.
There are good things about it:
- Great subway
- Interesting scene for, like, intellectual shit. You'd want to get involved with some non-profits, maybe donate a bit to a think tank or similar organization and go to their events. Good for the brain, and one of the few good settings for meeting chicas.
- Good golf scene. Nice public courses and a lot of country clubs.
- Condos aren't that expensive in the grand scheme. Sure they're more expensive than most cities, but when you consider the stability of that economy and how little they've moved in like the last 5-10 years, you can feel OK about that investment. Houses are another story, the housing in the good school districts (basically all the suburbs) has gotten insane.
NOVA is where I'd live if I went back. Younger people, more urban (because no height restriction) and much lower taxes. The district is fine too, like Georgetown/Dupont/U-Street area.
**Avoid Maryland** unless you enjoy spending time with the lamest people on the face of the earth. Think married couples who have a million in the bank and think they have a billion in the bank. Beverly Hills for ugly poor people. Every wife there is the typical Karen, every husband is whatever the male Karen is . . Todd or something . . proud of his Lexus SUV and calls himself an athlete because he jogs. Oh, and fun fact about Maryland parents: all of their kids are gifted! Hard to believe, but just ask them. Imagine the adult you never wanted to become, and that's every person in Maryland.
Happy to discuss further.
100%. It's also called "Hollywood for ugly people."
Personally I can't stand humidity either, but it's annoying that most important finance cities have humidity of some kind (HK/Singapore, NYC in the summer, occasionally Chicago and London, Houston is terrible, etc.).
The metro is alright, but nowhere near as useful as the NYC subway. It ends fairly early (midnight most days and just 1am on Fri/Sat). Large increase in crime since the pandemic (like everywhere else). They have a massive funding issue, which affects their capex and operating maintenance a lot so there are a fair amount of derailments, crashes, etc. Also, it was designed principally to take people from the burbs into offices and back again, so there are a couple seemingly non-sensical routes like getting from Tenleytown to Takoma for example (akin to taking the NYC subway from Queens to Brooklyn THROUGH Manhattan) through half the city instead of just directly across.
This is one thing I'm branching more into. I'm involved in some local charities and that's been an interesting way to meet like-minded people, but the amount of think tanks, multinational orgs, associations, etc. is mind-boggling and amazing for networking.
I bought a condo back in 2021 for a pretty decent basis and looking for good leasability with Amazon coming to Crystal City. They just announced a freeze on some of their office development plans, but that's more of a short-term thing thankfully.
1,000% agree on the Maryland comments. Trash state, trash annoying people. It was cool back when it was a Catholic colony, then they killed them all in 1689 and made it a terrible place ever since.
Quant (ˈkwänt) n: An expert, someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing.
"It was cool back in '89 . . 1689 that is" lol
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