Supreme court voted to overturn Roe v Wade abortion law, leaked draft opinion reportedly shows
Majority of Supreme Court is ready to strike down Roe v. Wade, leaked opinion shows
What's your take? For or against? Why? Do you think this ruling will effect turnout in the midterms later this year? If so, how?
This is quite historic. Positively or negatively, I'm curious to hear your take.
For some this means no easy way out of hooker/stripper babies or making sure your own kids finish school. For others this represents potentially millions of lives saved depending on how long the ruling remains in place.
This is technically a leak of sentiment, not an official decision. Do you think that this being leaked and the subsequent public outcry from the left will cause a shift in the vote? If it doesn't, how big do you think the reaction could get?
Some interesting chatter from twitter. Perhaps an intelligent media blitz to rally the base? Potential riots?
This site is American centric. I'd appreciate 3 or 4 Americans on here telling me what's with the obsession with abortion in the US. I'm not attacking, just really want to understand.
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That's not a good explanation
That'll never happen. If abortion is murder as I and half the country believe, it isn't less bad at 8 weeks than 20 weeks. It either is or isn't always wrong.
Almost 70% of Americans agree that abortion should be legal and accessible. So no, half the country doesn't think it's murder. A minority of a minority of the population are outspoken fanatics who have taken advantage of an 18th century system of government to exert minority rule.
It's not just an American thing. It's just that the average American is much more into politics than the average citizen of most any other country.
Half of the country believes that a fetus is a baby. Half of the country does not. These two halves will literally never see eye to eye on abortion. It is impossible.
Guessing that you're asking why the right to abortion is quasi-sacred in America because the only other countries in the world that permit abortion to the degree to which America does are Canada, North Korea, and China. As far as I know, we're the only country that out and out celebrates abortion.
I don't have a good explanation as to the root of that obsession. However, its rooting is certainly immoral, ascientific, and its ardent supporters try to preserve and spread their ideology w/ a religious fervor not to be outdone by any mainstream Judeo/Christian religious organization in the country.
"To the degree" gives away the game, buddy. Abortion is legal in lots of places. Also, most countries (or most developed ones) don't have a theocratic element trying to impose religious law on the country. Pro choice activists in the states are more aggressive and more outspoken for the simple reason that the totalitarians they're pushing back against are more retrograde and zealous than in other places.
You can get an abortion for any reason until Week 14 in France, and have it paid for by the state healthcare system. It is 18 weeks in Sweden. 24 in the Netherlands.
My guess is that if you told women that they could abort for any reason, and have it paid for by the government, but have that limited to a time period similar to other Western democracies, there would be some support for that. Especially if you also mandated that contraception be free and freely available.
As we're seeing with a number of Republican theocrats, no one gives or gave a shit about the life of the "child", which anyway is treated like dirt by conservatives from the moment the umbilical cord is cut. After all, if we care so much about not "killing babies" the obvious answer is to prevent unwanted pregnancy... and yet few conservatives seem to support widespread access to contraceptives and educating kids about how to use them.
As always, it's about imposing religious law on others. Can't wait to see the spate of conservative lawmakers flying their mistresses and girlfriends out of state to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy - we all know that's coming. The same way the folks who cry loudest about gay marriage are the ones who inevitably get caught in a rest stop bathroom soliciting gay sex.
As Tupac says “my fo fo make sure your kids don’t grow”. He’s a rapper turnt Margaret Sanger.
The conservatives claim that’s it’s immoral due to their religion. It’s basically been used as a way to drum up support from the yokels ever since roe v wade passed. At the same time they do shit like passing laws banning sex education in schools and easy access to contraception which has been shown to lower the abortion rate.
tldr, conservatives are religious nutjobs
You justify the killing of a beating heart and call the other side nutjobs? Well, I guess I’d rather be a nutjob than a murderer of innocent lives.
Abortion isn’t murder. It’s a fundamental right . Just because it’s immoral according to your religion doesn’t make it objectively immoral. By your logic assuming that abortion is murder, you’d be fine committing murder if a 12 yr old girl was raped and ended up pregnant?
Exactly. I think we now have biological evidence beyond doubt of the fact that fetuses are living, rational beings.
Famously, of course, Thomas Aquinas originally wrote something to the effect that abortions up to the first c40 days were permissible, as it was only at day 40 that he witnessed biological proof of ensoulment. With the level of biology we have access to today we can see that this happens much sooner (and Thomas would have said as much too).
I used to think you didn't need religion to think that killing was morally wrong, but reading this made me change my mind. If you see being religious as the ONLY reason why killling is wrong, then I'm not sure what to say?
I think you're misunderstanding things.
The argument is that you need religion to believe that abortion is murder/killing, not that you need religion to think that killing is morally wrong.
I don't think abortion is murder so I don't see it as being morally wrong.
That’s where it’s going. Contraception and gay marriage are built upon the right to privacy states in Roe. Also conservatives are heavily against sex education and praise abstinence rather than shit that works
There are plenty of secular arguments against abortion.
Sure, but you really don't hear those thrown around all that often. Because the secular arguments against abortion (we shouldn't be enslaving anyone) are stronger.
Yes absolultely, because people can't commit crimes unless their religious. This is why countries where people are more athiest are completely crime free! Great logic
You literally are murdering humans that can't defend themselves. It is proven beyond a doubt that a fetus is alive, you can't say it's a fundamental right to be able to kill another human
You're appealing to emotion here.
If you don't view foetuses as being alive, it's not killing.
The original Roe v Wade was also leaked.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/05/02/leak-time-magazine-ro…
I guess it won't be much of a surprise that the states which will vote make abortion illegal, and thus reduce women to the status of chattel brood mares, are the same states with the worst legacies of minority rights and other forms of discrimination.
Look, by all means, leave it up to an individual State to decide. I just don't like the idea that my tax dollars, as a New Yorker, are going to be spent more and more on some theocratic evangelical shithole because intelligent people, especially women, with the means to leave won't want to live in a place which tells them that a bunch of old white men in the state legislature get the right to decide what they do with their bodies. Not to mention the link between "pro life" policies and poverty, which generally find correlation between women denied an abortion and higher likelihood of ending up in poverty
Sounds like you no longer want to pay your “fair share” of taxes haha
Probably very true. However, did you mention the link between "pro choice" policies and the higher likelihood of ending up dead?
I'd rather be alive and poor in the United States of America than dead.
Abortion isn't being outlawed by this ruling, this just means that each state gets to decide on how to handle abortion. I think the bigger issue here is how this information was leaked to the public: was this a hack (foreign attack?), or leaked from a clerk or even a Judge? Does this mean the Courts are compromised? And last: is this LEAK a hail marry attempt to fire up the voters to come out in the mid-term election? As it was clear that the Dems were going to lose this one.
No, the ruling was set to come out this summer / well before the elections. Likely released by someone to spur protests and garner public outcry with the intention of swaying the court's final ruling but this is definitely not related to the election or else they would've let it release on schedule (i.e. closer to November than we are now).
>No, the ruling was set to come out this summer / well before the elections
I was referring to the LEAK
crazy that people care more about this and transgender policies than actual pressing issues like climate and the deficit. y'all took the bait man, the american voting population is unfathomably stupid
If you think climate is a more pressing issue than this I don’t know what to tell you…
Regarding the deficit, there’s very little the public can do because the career politicians no matter who they are keep collecting more money for themselves. Whereas with abortion the cases moving to the Supreme Court were set by the states.
you believe that abortion policy is more important than climate policy? can you speak a little more to why you believe this?
It's going to result in liberal riots and insurrection. Liberals only support democracy when democracy supports liberalism.
So the frustration that boiled over from centuries of racial prejudice are just a joke, especially considering it was a murder by the state
This is ironic because the last insurrection was literally organized and conducted by conservatives..
I think you are mistaken
this thread: Wall St. men discuss women's abortion rights
lol
Hey now, it's not only women (if pro-choicers can even define what a woman is) that can get abortions anymore. Any pregnant person can!
Regardless of what you believe re: if abortion is right or wrong, the most toxic thing in the abortion debate is the notion that, just because I have a penis, means that I can't have a stance on the topic. It is extremely important in democratic discourse to be able to discuss and stand up for things you believe to be immoral regardless of if they affect you.
Case in point: The end of slavery in the US, Women's suffrage in the US, and many positive societal aspects, have all come to fruition because groups of people that the laws didn't affect took a stand too.
Note that if the baby is born, the man is morally and legally responsible for caring for that child for the rest of its life, so men have do a stake in any pregnancy they are a part of. Conversely, if the woman opts to abort a child that they jointly made and he wanted to keep that child, he has to mourn the loss of that child.
I don't understand how so many people reduce this to being purely a woman's issue given that pregnancy can lead to having a child with two parents.
lol but in all those cases the affected group did not have the rights to influence any sort of change so it's not apples to apples. I imagine all slaves would vote to be free'd and all women would vote to have more rights if they were given this privilege. Free people shouldn't have a fucking position on whether slaves should stay slaves. Your comment sounds more delusional the more thought I give it
Where exactly do you expect a bunch of rich conservative finance men to side on this topic? There’s hardly any real discussion in here.
Like anyone else, your more than welcome to post facts and logically structure an argument that challenges others and convey your thoughts.
You can’t though which is why you’re resorting to whining and throwing tantrums about men.
As someone who grew up catholic and had to listen to this argument all the time, it’s never made sense to me why religion grounds itself with heavy feet on this issue. You can believe abortion is wrong without having to interfere with the lives of others. After all, isn’t the belief that they will be judged in the end for their actions?
I think it’s foolish that people still put so much stock in religions that have for centuries denied people happiness, sent them to pointless wars, and pretended to know all in order to control groups of people. All the hypocrisy and manipulation is well documented. And yet millions still believe the doctrines of the church come from god. They don’t. It’s all bullshit. You don’t need a priest that touches little boys in his spare time to get to heaven, if there is one. Religions put a cloth over your eyes so you don’t have to face the realities of being mortal.
Wow someone who doesn’t believe in religion talking about religion. Must be straight facts right?
I think the real issue here is you’re too afraid to take the cloth off your eyes, because then you would be responsible. Ignorance is bliss, yeah?
Well, I believed in religion for the majority of my life for whatever that’s worth to you. I also saw enough corruption and downright evil from the holy order of the Catholic Church in that time to seriously doubt it as an institution.
As for me taking the cloth off, I’ll bite. What exactly would I be responsible for? My actions? I certainly don’t think that changes much. I’m certainly not clean of sins by Bible doctrine, but then again I don’t think you are either. Perhaps I’m wrong.
Christianity is and always was about ego. “I know better than you, I’m going to heaven you’re going to hell, I’m going to live forever in paradise after death, I have an omnipowerful God on my side”. So much so that theyre willing to believe crazy fucking folk tales that make no sense and defy logic. All for their ego.
Why do people keep bringing up religion in the abortion debate? You do know that many pro-lifers come from a secular position right?
How do you expect people who say that babies are being murdered would just be like "yeah its chill bro you do you"
Really, why do you keep bringing religion into the discussion? Some folks do use religion as a grounds for banning abortion but there are plenty of secular folks who literally use science & don't want to kill something that is alive & human
Why will the Church or politicians fight tooth and nail for babies to be born to poor women who were raped or who can't afford to give them a good life but not fight with the same intensity for those babies to grow up with resources? Why will they fight abortion with everything they've got but not fight rapists, pedophiles and poverty (and other things that drive women to seek abortions) with that same fire?
I'd consider the fight against abortion less hypocritical if conservatives were fighting for ALL children and human rights the same way they are fighting for the unborn. I know many of them are genuine about their fight, but I wonder how many would keep fighting if they understood that banning abortion will cause birth rates among poor minorities who can't afford contraception to skyrocket.
This. “Pro life” sounds quite hypocritical when there is no federally mandated maternity leave, no universal healthcare coverage and no subsidized childcare. This burden disproportionately falls on women, moreover poor ones often without the resources to properly raise a child. As a woman, I honestly don’t know what choice I would make if I ended up with an unplanned pregnancy and was contemplating an abortion - but I can guarantee no woman would make that choice lightly, and I can’t imagine having that choice taken away from me by people who essentially don’t care about a child’s well-being once they leave the womb.
True, people are born under rather dire circumstances at times. However, is the solution to eliminating this suffering killing the sufferer?
Also, I don't understand why this argument is never turned the other way around. If you care about giving resources to a child, how dare you not protect the same child until his or her birth? If you care about universal healthcare, how do you not care about the child's healthcare before birth? Or what's "universal" about healthcare which is not universally provided to all human beings including unborn children?
Conservatives believe in the sanctity of life and in personal responsibility. In other words, "no, you cannot kill your baby. and yes, you need to take care of him."
It's your responsibility to face the consequences if you have an unplanned child, not the taxpayer's.
Also, conservatives do fight "rapists, pedophiles and poverty," probably more strongly than they fight abortion. I don't know why you bring this up as a counterargument.
And it's your responsibility if you're raped.
Ahh yes, the racist arguments. It's too bad poor minorities won't kill their babies! It'd be terrible if there were more of them minorities running around!
While we're at it, let's legalize murdering as long as it's minorities that are the victims - wouldn't want a poor mother to have to pay for her 15 year old's food, so gang violence should be allowed too huh?
Gotta love casually racist and intellectually lazy posts.
honestly this debate is pro-choice vs pro-birth. Pro-life sounds good tho like BLM.
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