Very conservative muslim in high-finance
Ignore my title-it may / may not be accurate-I selected it randomly.I am curious about how the very conservative muslim/Jewish tradition/values of refusing to shake hands with / touch female colleagues-& especially female bosses-would be perceived in high-finance roles. Would it potentially impede career success? I recognize many in the Modern Western nations could consider it downright outrageous. Is there a chance it will be respected & not make one disliked?
Most banks/companies will have an internal code of conduct that will, for example, completely ban you from treating your female colleagues any different. These codes are only enforced when they outright want to fire you but needless to say if you anger a superior by refusing to shake her hand simply for being a woman you can be sure that code of conduct will be specifically enforced against you. So yes, these codes are basically just enforcers of common western traditions which means you could find yourself fired for following your own religious conducts. This is, of course, a rule of woke. Perhaps there will come a time when 'islamophobia' trumps 'sexism' and then it would be that superior getting fired instead of you, but I do not see that happening without some significant demographic and cultural changes happening within the halls of high finance.
Yes, the problem here is "woke" and not an ultra orthodox religious interpretation that demeans women (eye roll)
Funny. I didn't say it was a problem, I just said what it was. You inserted the word 'problem'. Oh, aren't Freudian slips just a beautiful sight to behold? Anyways, by 'rule of woke' I mean that when 2 minority groups clash, there are 'rules of woke' that determine who gets priority. In most cases I have witnessed, specially in the workplace, woman > muslim. In other words, if you are a muslim in the office it is you who has to adapt, not the woman. But this is arbitrary, of course. In 5 years it could be women
Of course you will be disliked - this is part of the job and it would be disrespectful to not shake a client’s or colleague’s hand just because of gender.
I'm a Muslim too and there are various interpretations on whether or not shaking hands with women is haram. But, look, you live in the West, you need to abide by the laws here... That's not to say go and eat pork and drink or whatever, but very basic customs such as shaking hands, this is a no-brainer requirement. Especially if you have a female client or a superior who is a woman, imagine refusing to shake the hand of a woman MD - how disrespected would she feel? You for sure wouldn't be getting a return offer and you can't even complain about Islamophobia because, as the previous poster says, you are signing up to a code of conduct.
I have to ask, though, you seem pretty anal about this particular (quite conservative) interpretation, but finance is full of interest (riba). Is this not a problem for you? Even in a pure M&A advisory, funds are usually raised through a combination of equity and bonds, and in the interim there can be bridge loans. So you wouldn't be clean of interest.
For you, I would recommend an alternative career in finance. Try transaction banking/global treasury services.
This is exactly what I was wondering about - anybody conservative enough to not touch a woman should be conservative enough to not deal with interest - unless you're just cherry picking your inconsistent conservative views so they benefit you personally lol.
As a follow up to this, OP if you are this conservative what are you doing in the west? The fact of the matter is if you are a highly educated Muslim you can have an excellent quality of life in Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Riyadh, etc. it makes a lot more sense for you to consider Islamic finance jobs there then try to seek acceptance for not being able to shake a woman’s hand and the other conservative viewpoints here (which won’t succeed).
If you are in the West you will have to follow basic Western social norms. If the culture gap is too large, I’d strongly suggest looking into a move into the more prosperous Middle Eastern cities.
And before anyone misinterprets my comment actually look into the major cities in the Middle East. If I was Muslim i myself would strongly consider a move there. I’m not though and the cultural gap is too large, but for OP it would be a non issue.
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Why would you not shake hands with a female colleague? What the h*ll is wrong with you?
he may get evil thoughts and be punished by almighty
Because you aren't supposed to touch the opposite sex before marriage
I'm curious as to why your religion preaches not to shake hands with women. Is it out of respect for women?
My rough understanding having dated a few Muslims is that contact between men and women who are neither wed nor familial is considered by various sects of Islam to be haram (forbidden). It's often seen as a way to preserve the modesty of women while also to preventing men from having "impure" thoughts/urges related to those women (sort of a "you can't be tempted by what you cannot touch/see" logic, which extends the various arguments around Hijabs/Burqas as well). Some will also argue it's a way of expressing that women are below men and therefore unworthy of the contact as it would indicate some level of equality, but that's only an argument I've heard from non-Muslims/detractors of Islam and never from an actual Muslim so I don't know for certain if that's actually a part of the belief.
Yes that makes sense. I suspected smtg along those lines - like how men and women should be segregated (according to conservative Islam) to prevent men from having 'impure' thoughts. And how women shouldn't shop on their own because buying vegetables like aubergines or courgettes will give them 'impure' thoughts. And then there's that Turkish religious leader who recently said men shouldn't shave because unbearded men look like women and will therefore cause other men to have 'impure' thoughts.
Yea, that feels like more of a 2nd-order derivation of the original law
Accurate.
Same with some extremely conservative practitioners of Judaism even today
I would just about ignore everyone's comment on this thread. If somebody has not gone through this experience, or doesn't believe it to be the right thing to do, they have no right to comment about it. I used to also think that it would be seriously detrimental for my career to not shake hands with women, that it would be disrespectful, etc. etc. You just have to be confident in it and give it a try. Start with analysts - when you first hit the desk, your female colleagues will probably try to shake your hand. You just put your hand over your heart and smile and say something like "I'm sorry but I can't shake hands because of religious beliefs, but it's really nice to meet you and I am super excited to be here". People will focus on your positivity and totally understand. Something people fail to realize is that with countries like Saudi or the UAE funding almost every single investment fund in the world, almost everyone (especially people higher up) have already had exposure to Muslim culture and know that more conservative Muslims do this. The comment above about violating the internal code of conduct is just outright wrong - you are not mistreating anybody by not shaking their hand for a valid religious reason and nobody can tell you otherwise. I've been doing this for almost a year now and have never had this be an issue - in fact, people have actually asked me more about it and been genuinely curious to learn more.
For those who are asking about why Islam believes in this, it's because Islam believes in a very distinct family structure that is supposed to lead to living a pure life. Sleeping around or having essentially a commitment-less relationship is perceived to take you away from having true responsibility or doing good things. In Islam, a man and a woman have certain responsibilities, which when everyone in a society does, leads to a highly functioning society. If you look at truly practicing Muslims, they are supposed to be the most respectful, ambitious, and hardworking people - a lot of problems you see in America would not exist in a truly Muslim society. Part of the emphasis on respect in Islam is the respect for gender - if I am not married or related to a woman, I have no need to be touching her or infringing on her personal space. The whole idea of hijab is not just to cover up women, but to instead bring attention to a woman's actual intelligence and personality rather than just her looks. It's pretty funny now that you have models and actresses in America saying the same thing about objectification and how people don't value them for who they are - Islam says the same thing. So shaking hands is just part of that - I have no need to be touching somebody I am not related to, and I can still maintain a professional working relationship with them by valuing them for their intelligence and personality. Anything beyond that just isn't necessary. The idea of gender segregation isn't just because of men's "impure thoughts," but rather just keeping respectful relationships between the genders.
To the dude talking about women not buying vegetables, I don't even know where you got that from lol. Never heard that before in my life.
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/supposed-fatwa-bans-women-touching-bananas-cucumbers-article-1.989930
This is just a super cursory first google search and I'm not gonna do some deep research just to prove a point on a forum, so please don't clap back at me sayin' that it's just one isolated event without context.
And I know, because I'm an international and I come from a Muslim country. I'm not Muslim and I'll leave it there
I guess an unnamed European cleric must be the sole representative of almost 2 billion people. Great argument.
If you don’t support Western customs, why did you move to a Western city?
Exactly it’s absurd. If you come to America learn about the country. Learn the language. It’s ridiculous we let illegals in who can’t even speak English
Rice I thought you were mexican this whole time
Not sure why the MS, but if he asked his Imam at the Mosque, I bet he would be discouraged to move to a western city. There is a war going on and conservative Muslims are largely against succumbing to any Western values. This is about the true fulfillment of one’s religion.
he wants to make money but pretends to be conservative Muslim. a conservative Muslim would find more piece and fulfillment living in his home town with family, or if it's dangerous to live in (like Afghanistan), then some peaceful area nearby with the same muslim culture. US is pretty much the opposite of Muslim values: people here work hard to make as much money as they can so they can spend it on earthly pleasures - if you're a conservative Muslim you wouldn't desire to live in a place like this.
There is a strange difference between very conservative Christians and Muslims which I've noticed over years:
Super conservative Christian - tries to follow every tiny small aspect of the Bible.....and then fails almost across the board. Drinks a little too much, cheats on his wife, talks badly about people, etc. but at least tries.
Super conservative Muslim - tries to follow every tiny small aspect of the Quran. Does an amazing job of following 90% of it. Never takes a drink. Never eats pork. Does Ramadan etc. Never slips up even once on this 90% area. However, they have a 10% ringfence where they don't even try. Build as much wealth as possible and don't give to the poor. Follow every other detail....except having pre-marital sex with non-Muslim women. It's the strangest thing - absolute perfection one part of life and then this gaping hole in another where they don't even seem to be trying.
I hope no one takes offense. Just an observation that I've noticed over the years. If someone has an explanation of the above, would be very interested to hear about it.
I'm not sure why this is getting MS. It is actually a legitimate point. Personally speaking as a Christian, I wouldn't move to a place like Saudi Arabia for a million dollars a year. I don't believe in that culture and don't want to be a part of it.
Bottom line is, when you're in a specific location, you generally have to abide by the laws of that nation. The Quran literally states you should defer to the laws of a nation alongside Allah and Mohammed. I think you'll generally have a hard time getting around non-negotiables, like treating women the same as men.
It will plainly not go well if you can't shake hands with senior women in the bank or with senior members of the client. This is not 1980, in almost every transaction I have been on there were a few senior women at the very least in the PE / corp side that wouldn't probably be understanding if you can't interact with them.
Isn't profit a sin？
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