MF Summer Analyst roles, pros and cons?
Hello,
Coming from a target w a high GPA and a name brand internship lined up for sophomore summer, I think I have a shot of recruiting for some mega fund SA roles my junior, on either a PE or a credit team depending on how I craft my story.
Curious how all of you see the pros and cons of interning for a KKR, Blackrock, Ares etc. I've heard that return offers are pretty slim, but is recruiting for FT roles in IB after a junior summer working at a top PE firm going to be that difficult? Also, in terms of learning, I know that the scope of my learning will likely be narrower than working in M&A or RX -- does this matter if I want to recruit for buyside after a couple years in IB anyways?
Do kids who go straight to PE out of UG actually perform well enough to advance? Or do kids coming out of a 2 year A program at a top IB shop tend to progress faster, on account of different work environment/education?
Thanks.
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What kind of question is this. Are you implying that you would turn down MF SA to work at a bank?
Yeah. Given the fact that return offers can be super slim, that is my question. is the risk worth the reward.
It's a great way to get into these programs, but you get way less deal and model reps working on a handful of projects over your 2 analyst years than someone from banking who sees 50-100 projects. The analyst role at the MFs is mostly supporting the ASOs who do the model, rather than directly owning the model and all workstreams like you would in banking. Not to mention the banks have a very well-oiled training model and churn analysts out by the dozens; in PE they don't have anywhere near that level of structured training program.
Solid opportunity if you really want to skip banking, but the IB ASOs tend to come in far ahead of people who do their analyst years in PE. Hence why a few of the MFs have canceled their AN programs - they found they were better off letting someone do the training and just bring people in at associate.
If you want to do banking FT you're best off doing it junior summer too. A MF will get you in the door but like 95% of FT spots are taken by interns, you're picking at scraps for FT recruiting even if you're a great candidate.
Can confirm BX is trimming analyst program materially.
What’s a “name brand sophomore summer” F500 Corp Fin?
Not important
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I haven’t interned at one but I know people who have and I’ve heard the following. The teams are lean and not collegial at all, there is no formal training, and you are given responsibility from day 1 (your principal/MD will quote your analysis in IC meetings so if you fuck up there are real consequences) whereas in banking you have 3 people check your work before it is sent off to the MD. The job sounds ridiculously stressful and from what I’ve heard the hours are (somehow) worse than banking, but if you are dead set on being an investor it sounds like a great learning experience. If you don’t like the job you won’t have an issue recruiting for banking roles full-time (even if you don’t get a return offer they help you land a banking job)
I go back and forth on if the risk / reward of doing a MF junior summer makes sense. I was in your shoes a few years ago OP, with a strong name brand sophomore summer, but decided to take one of those MF internships my junior year. In my case, the return rate in that office ended up being pretty low, and most interns (including myself) didn’t get offers. ln comparison, most people I knew at BB/EBs (who seemed reasonably competent / hardworking) got return offers. Obviously this is anecdotal and I'm biased, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.
Either way, due to personal experience, I generally lean toward the view others have already expressed here: for most people, sticking with a solid banking internship your junior summer is the most safe and practical choice. Stakes are somewhat lower, the bank's ability to train you is typically higher, and you'll get more reps.
Same thing out of college too when deciding between PE vs. IB. Hard to weigh this while in college, but going into a typical 'PE culture' straight out of school, depending on your background / maturity can be a bit jarring. You go from being a 22 year old mostly just hanging out with other 22 year olds to spending your days interacting mostly with folks in their 30s - 40s+ with wives / kids that are competing intensely to get to the next rung. Starting in banking lets you ease your way into all of that a bit. It's definitely not easier, but having a cohort of people your own age to bond / shoot the shit with is extremely cathartic. May not mean much now, but when you're in the midst of the Analyst years, it really is nice to be able to talk to someone else that can relate.
I mean if the MF office / team you worked at has good return rate in history then 100% take the offer.
1. Most, yes most of BB candidates can not enter a MF after analyst years, think only then best can do and mostly random MM, or UMM if lucky and dedicated.
2. At BB if you do not fit with the team culture or for whatsoever reason you still have the risk of not receiving a return offer and recruit again.
3. Doesn’t matter you see fewer deals at PE. In fact, from what I heard from people lateral from BB to UMM you do not have many deals to put on your CV because you actually recruit for PE before working two years.
4. If your are allocated to a bad team at BB you May end up doing pitches without much execution
Of course unless you are really wanted to be a banker than go for BB. If you ever want to do investing go for MF.
A MF summer is great for the resume and networking, but the path after depends a lot on how much real work they let you touch. Some interns get full deal exposure, some spend most days on data pulls. If you land in a team that actually staffs juniors, it helps a lot when recruiting for full time IB because you can talk through real processes, not just templates.
On the flip side, the learning curve in IB is still wider. You pick up modeling speed, repetitions, and the grind that PE shops expect later. Kids who jump straight to PE from undergrad do fine if the fund invests in training, but most still need time to adjust since the workflow is different from banking. If your long term target is buyside, a strong junior summer at a MF plus a solid IB experience after is a reliable combo.
Might get MS for this, but would strongly advise against the MF SA programs. I've seen so many incredibly smart kids at my target get burned by these programs year after year. RO rates are low, pressure is high, interns are pitted against each other, there really isn't formal training at any of them, and adjusting to the culture at a MF is very jarring as an undergrad.
FT recruiting is literally just the scraps left over after SA's wrap up - of course there's execeptions, but for the most part, FT recruiting is basically fighting with a ton of super qualified applicants for a spot in a meh group at a meh MM bank. Put simply, the vast majority of FT spots are the ones that people don't want.
TLDR: Do a banking program unless you are incredibly confident in your ability to be hired full-time. Like even if you're 80% sure you'd get hired and like the experience at the MF, I'd still do banking. The risk just isn't worth it.
Couldn't have said it better myself :(
What are the traits of those that end up converting FT? Anything specific?
Every intern will be pretty solid, so if you're in a group where over 50% has to get cut by design (ex - 8 are recruited for SA but they only have FT spots for 3), it can come down to a bunch of things (culture, work product, technical skills, networking, etc). Being very strong technically from day one is probably the best way to stand out, though.
Also if your parent(s) work in the industry or do business with the firm, that will always bode well for converting SA to FT as no firm wants to make waves with this kind of stuff. This is probably one of the most common threads between kids who convert MF internships to offers lol. Just the way the world works.
Worked at MF credit this summer... Can harp on that training is not great, and returns are slim, and the environment is intense. FT recruiting is tough, even with the name brand on your resume. Much better off recruiting for banking and having that safety and opportunity down the line. The name is great and you meet cool people, but it's not all that.
Did soph summer in BB IB but went to one of the programs you’re talking about. Two points here:
Just to be safe, I would do EB/ BB IBD SA junior summer, try to secure the return offer, and then recruit for MF PE.
I did MF PE SA junior summer, did not get a return offer as convert rates were low across the board, and then struggled to get traction my senior year with IBD roles, as the economy turned so bad and most of the FT positions were filled by SAs.
I graduated jobless, but was eventually able to secure a role with an MM IBD, and have been in some lateral processes for EB / BBs now.
As some of the above commenters posted, you get much more deal reps in IBD, and depending on the bank, you will have way more hands-on deal experience, seeing all sides of complex problems and solutions, than going straight to buyside out of undergrad.
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